Aren't these lists wonderful! I had a suggestion from a lister to try a different Christian name and so I tried Martha and "Bingo" I found Pamela=Martha - the Martha COPELAND d/o Joseph and Elizabeth (Lizzie) that was on the 1881 census. I am repeating my original message but with the corrections in capitals. Please, please, please excuse the format, I am not shouting but I think it would be easier to see the new information. Rather than being a "brickwall" this is more a heavy impenetrable brick that I am trying to fit into a newly constructed branch of my family tree - which I realize is rather a mixed metaphor. I am aware that some of the details may seem a little indistinct but I think it may be better to indicate which I am certain about, and which there is still some doubt. Patricia/MARTHA LOWE (nee COPELAND) was my grand aunt and the daughter of Joseph COPELAND and Elizabeth (Lizzie) McCLYMONT. SHE WAS BORN AYRSH N K, SCOTLAND c 1878 (not London as I thought) She died in Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England. She married James LOWE and they had Len, Harry Joe and Lizzie. Lizzie, who went by the surname of LOWE, was either fostered or adopted by James and Patricia being her niece. Lizzie's parents were probably William COPELAND (or Bill BROADBENT) and probably Alice WARD. I HAVE FOUND MARTHA AND JAMES LOWE IN THE 1901 CENSUS PLUS THEIR CHILDREN LEONARD(3)AND HARRY (9M)IN DERBYSHIRE, OF CHINLEY BUGSWORTH AND BROWNSIDE. My COPELAND family, while originating in Scotland as far back as I can trace, spread as far as I know in the 1800s and early 1900s to Co Durham, Yorkshire, DERBYSHIRE, Northumberland and Liverpool. Hoping this may make things clearer. Jim Jim and Bev Payne New Zealand [email protected]