In a message dated 08/10/2001 7:02:30 PM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > "You may share the above information with other family members, giving > credit > to the original sources or researchers, BUT you may not distribute it to > any > commercial enterprise nor may you publish any vital records of living > persons". > > How you gonna enforce this? Gordon Hale

In a message dated 8/9/01 8:10:47 PM, [email protected] writes: >I guess I have a different outlook regarding my research and the four books >I have written on mine and my husband's lines. I could care less about >who >copies it. I would have done the research even if no one except myself >ever >looked/read it. I want every family member, regardless of how far apart >we >are, to know about our ancestors. I firmly applaud your willingness to share. I do likewise BUT I resent doing all the work and research and then having someone else [outside the family] selling my work! So here is the restriction I place on all info that I send out: "You may share the above information with other family members, giving credit to the original sources or researchers, BUT you may not distribute it to any commercial enterprise nor may you publish any vital records of living persons". Cora Cora

In a message dated 8/9/01 8:26:15 PM, [email protected] writes: >You can fancy >up your facts with lovely script and charming art work which you can >copyright but the facts are not copyrightable. They are in public >documents, on grave stones, in phone books, in church registers and as >such >are public domain. Thank heaven they are facts and that they are free >to >all! Without factual evidence, all the genealogy we do would be nothing >but >flights of our imagination. I agree that facts are free to all and I would be the first one to want to keep them that way. BUT when someone starts selling the facts at usury prices, then what? Also I agree that we absolutely must authenticate the facts we present in our family histories; but adding biographies, memories, historical background, etc. certainly makes it more interesting to our readers, don't you think? Cora

In a message dated 8/9/01 10:38:22 AM, [email protected] writes: >Last night about 8:30 PM PDT asked my neighbor, an >attorney whose firm specializes in trademarks and copyrights whether or >not >family group sheets could be protected. When I went out to walk my dog >at >6:30 AM, saw him leave for his office. He was still laughing. Pity him and his clients! The head librarian at Harvard University says "you always own the words you write". Perhaps a look at: http://poetry.about.com/arts/poetry/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.poe ts.org/help/writefaq.cfm will help? Cpra

In a message dated 8/9/01 9:40:52 AM, [email protected] writes: >Sellers have to have buyers and if people are stupid >enough to buy this junk then they deserve what they get. Jesse, You seem to have a very poor opinion of people. Knowledge is power and people would NOT get ripped off if they knew the facts. OR do you prefer to keep people in the dark? Cora

I guess I have a different outlook regarding my research and the four books I have written on mine and my husband's lines. I could care less about who copies it. I would have done the research even if no one except myself ever looked/read it. I want every family member, regardless of how far apart we are, to know about our ancestors. I have an uncle who has been doing this for 60+ years (he is 93) and he hates to share anything because he had to really get out there and search and pay for the info. Regardless of what I have paid, I will gladly share. Personally, I would not pay for the family group sheets but if someone wants to do that, go ahead. Most of the information on those sheets are now on CDs anyway. Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 6:05 AM Subject: Re: RE: E-Bay Copeland group sheets for sale? > > In a message dated 8/8/01 5:56:40 PM, [email protected] writes: > > >You can't > >copyright public information such as names, dates, addresses. The only > >thing you can copyright is the FORMAT in which the data is presented. > > You always own the word that you compose as each presentation is unique -- > with or without any lies! So even public records info, once incorporated > into your genealogy are yours AND yours only UNLESS you give them permission > to use. > > Cora > > > ==== COPELAND Mailing List ==== > Jesse M. Lawrence is listowner for Copeland List <[email protected]> > You can view my Copeland file on Worldconnect, file name jmljr > Search my data base which is updated weekly and contains notes and sources > http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=jmljr > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

Hi, I hope they're not the work of creative effort but the result of searching out some solid facts, reading public records, and putting the facts down honestly. Creativity has no place in genealogy. You can fancy up your facts with lovely script and charming art work which you can copyright but the facts are not copyrightable. They are in public documents, on grave stones, in phone books, in church registers and as such are public domain. Thank heaven they are facts and that they are free to all! Without factual evidence, all the genealogy we do would be nothing but flights of our imagination. We would belong to the realm of Tolkien and the brothers Grimm. Not bad company but not genealogy. Happy hunting, Sandy -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 4:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: "every creative work is copyrighted" In a message dated 8/8/01 5:56:40 PM, [email protected] writes: >The only >thing you can copyright is the FORMAT in which the data is presented. The above is another copyright myth. Some legal basics: Under the Berne copyright convention, which almost all major nations have signed, every creative work is copyrighted the moment it is fixed in tangible form. No notice is necessary, though it helps legal cases. No registration is necessary, though it's needed later to sue. The copyright lasts until 50 years after the author dies. Facts and ideas can't be copyrighted, BUT expressions of creative effort can. So, are your family trees the result of your creative efforts? Mine are! Cora ==== COPELAND Mailing List ==== Jesse M. Lawrence is listowner for Copeland List <[email protected]> You can view my Copeland file on Worldconnect, file name jmljr Search my data base which is updated weekly and contains notes and sources http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=jmljr ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

In a message dated 08/09/2001 6:05:44 AM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > A class action suit against these rip-off artists should be very welcomed. > > I don't think this would be a winning proposition. This data they are selling is, as you say, acquired from others. The others, surely, are giving this data freely without putting any restrictions on it. How can data, that is acquired from public records, be copyrighted? I don't think it can. I understand how someone might be upset because they see the data they have so laborously accumulated being used/sold without citing the source; but that is the manner of business. I hate to be the devils advocate in this instant because I do agree with you that these "peddlers" of other's work are less than ethical. I fear, however, that what they do is not illegal in any fashion. Live long and prosper. Gordon Hale

In a message dated 08/09/2001 6:05:44 AM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > And so they continue to rip off the rest of us --- more uneducated souls! > > I am not disagreeing with you Cora. I, too, think that it is more or less a "rip-off". I do think, however, that there are people who learn best by spending money foolishly, as I did. I don't doubt that I will do the same in the future with other "rip-offs". Another valuation of anything is not necessarily the same as mine, and until I try something myself, I cannot determine it's worth to myself. I won't spend more than, say, $10.00, for something that I am investigating; but I do think that sometime you must spend money for your own education. Your Obedient Servant Gordon Hale

Looks similar as what Yates and other companies have been selling for years--they've had ads in GENEALOGICAL HELPER and similar publications for so long as I can remember. They've collected family group sheets for hundreds of names, and sell copies literally by the pound. When I first started research, ordered several names (in 1980s was about $9.95 per name for about 40 sheets). While they were all neatly handwritten or typed (pre-computers) and included the contributors' names and addresses, who knew if they were accurate? One of the sets I remember getting was for my Grogan line--which I've only been able to track to Georgia. I knew that my ancestor was there very early. I got a lot of sheets of Potato Famine Grogans as well as some from the South from the 1700s. Some well-researched families were on several sheets, done by different researchers. There wasn't a single page that was helpful to me. I guess if you hit one of your lines, it's worth it, but Internet has likely replaced this sort of exchange. Apparently Internet has affected some of the firms like YATES, noticed that they were selling on eBay. Copyright infringement? Last night about 8:30 PM PDT asked my neighbor, an attorney whose firm specializes in trademarks and copyrights whether or not family group sheets could be protected. When I went out to walk my dog at 6:30 AM, saw him leave for his office. He was still laughing.

Why are we trying to stir people up for nothing? Why not bring a class action suit if you think that is the answer.Suing is always the answer, isn't it? Have anyone bought the material? Does anyone have any facts to condemn? Sellers have to have buyers and if people are stupid enough to buy this junk then they deserve what they get. copyright facts are contradictory, one email says facts are copyrighted and then they are not. Lets get back to genealogy. -- Best Regards And Have A Good Day, Jesse M. Lawrence Jr. <[email protected]> Owner -Highland Oaks Ranch 5300 East McKinney Road ,Denton ,Texas,76208 Home: 940-243-5068 Fax: 940-243-0198 List Owner for [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] , [email protected], Researching histories for Copeland, Pittman, Lawrence, Wheeler, Neville, Turner and Harris. Search my data base which is updated weekly and contains notes and sources http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=jmljr Family Page http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/l/a/w/Jesse-M-Lawrence/ THE ESSENCE OF SURVIVAL --- "Every morning in Africa, a Gazelle wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning a Lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun the slowest Gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't matter whether you are a Lion or a Gazelle . . . when the sun comes up, you'd better be running."

In a message dated 8/8/01 5:56:40 PM, [email protected] writes: >You can't >copyright public information such as names, dates, addresses. The only >thing you can copyright is the FORMAT in which the data is presented. You always own the word that you compose as each presentation is unique -- with or without any lies! So even public records info, once incorporated into your genealogy are yours AND yours only UNLESS you give them permission to use. Cora

In a message dated 8/8/01 2:22:53 PM, [email protected] writes: > If the bundle isn't too costly it might be worth trying, just for the >education. And so they continue to rip off the rest of us --- more uneducated souls! I repeat: You will note that they say these are photcopies of family groups in their files --- files that people like you and me sent to them FOR FREE! and that they can continue to sell and resell and resell! Family group sheets that they may be violating copyrights UNLESS the submitters signed a copy releasing their rights to their own research. AND is this much different from Family Tree and others who sell CD's with family info on them that they were GIVEN ----freely--- by others like you and I? I think it is outrageous and illegal. I think we deserve better. A class action suit against these rip-off artists should be very welcomed. Cora Cora

In a message dated 8/8/01 5:56:40 PM, [email protected] writes: >The only >thing you can copyright is the FORMAT in which the data is presented. The above is another copyright myth. Some legal basics: Under the Berne copyright convention, which almost all major nations have signed, every creative work is copyrighted the moment it is fixed in tangible form. No notice is necessary, though it helps legal cases. No registration is necessary, though it's needed later to sue. The copyright lasts until 50 years after the author dies. Facts and ideas can't be copyrighted, BUT expressions of creative effort can. So, are your family trees the result of your creative efforts? Mine are! Cora

Hi, I agree that this is shameful but watch out about copyrights. You can't copyright public information such as names, dates, addresses. The only thing you can copyright is the FORMAT in which the data is presented. Some people try and protect their research data by including genealogical lies such as adding another sibling or changing a birth or date, certainly a horrendous crime, far worse than having your research "stolen". Happy hunting, Sandy -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 5:44 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: E-Bay Copeland group sheets for sale? In a message dated 8/7/01 4:42:59 PM, [email protected] writes: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1624001345 >Anyone have any comments on this? Another scam? Or someone gleaning off >us? Or a true research tool? >Kathy Busby Kathy, et al, You can check them out at: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/trussellpub/ You will note that they say these are photcopies of family groups in their files --- files that people like you and me sent to them FOR FREE! and that they can continue to sell and resell and resell! Family group sheets that they may be violating copyrights UNLESS the submitters signed a copy releasing their rights to their own research. Probably not a scam BUT, to my mind, a terrible way to be a true genealogist advocate. Cora You will ==== COPELAND Mailing List ==== Jesse M. Lawrence is listowner for Copeland List <[email protected]> You can view my Copeland file on Worldconnect, file name jmljr Search my data base which is updated weekly and contains notes and sources http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=jmljr ============================== Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate your heritage! http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog

In a message dated 08/08/2001 10:09:25 AM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Anyone have any comments on this? Another scam? Or someone gleaning off > us? Or a true research tool Hi Kathy, I purchase a collection of family sheets on the Reid family, several years ago, on E Bay. I found no usable information on any of them (about 50 sheets); but this doesn't mean someone else wouldn't have found information. I think it's sort of like shooting at a mouse from twenty feet with number 12 shot in a 10 gauge shotgun. You'll be lucky if you hit the mouse despite the fact that you are throwing out a lot of pellets. If the bundle isn't too costly it might be worth trying, just for the education. Your Obedient Servant Gordon Hale

In a message dated 8/7/01 4:42:59 PM, [email protected] writes: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1624001345 >Anyone have any comments on this? Another scam? Or someone gleaning off >us? Or a true research tool? >Kathy Busby Kathy, et al, You can check them out at: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/trussellpub/ You will note that they say these are photcopies of family groups in their files --- files that people like you and me sent to them FOR FREE! and that they can continue to sell and resell and resell! Family group sheets that they may be violating copyrights UNLESS the submitters signed a copy releasing their rights to their own research. Probably not a scam BUT, to my mind, a terrible way to be a true genealogist advocate. Cora You will

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1624737951 Delaware Bible Records Vol.2 by Donald O. Virdin c. 1991, softcover library withdrawal in very good condition, 162 indexed pages To date their have been 6 volumes of this series. This is for volume 2 which I do not believe is in book form. For any that have seen these they are a wonderful resource sometimes going into 4 or more generations and multiple pages. In the following abstraction from the index of the book, you will find those surnames who appear more than 4 times in the index. If a surname was more prevalent that a ?M? for many shows. A ?W? or whoa and the name was plentiful A-E Abbott* Adkins* Alrich* Alrichs* Atkinson* Bailey* Baker* Ball* Bennum* Birdsall* Bloxom* Boggs* Brewster* Burton* Cannon* Cole* Collis* Cooper* Copeland* Cranston* Cullen* Darby* Davidson* Davis* Derickson* Dixon* Dorland* Dowing* Draper* Dulebohn* Emerson* Evans* ~Name Digger is my handle and I am Diggin Up The Past~ Happy hunting. Kathy Busby

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1624001345 Anyone have any comments on this? Another scam? Or someone gleaning off us? Or a true research tool? Kathy Busby ~Name Digger is my handle and I am Diggin Up The Past~

I would be interested in knowing where the Copeland papers are and a summary of what they consist of. Charlie Copeland Grafton ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Stepp To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 4:30 PM Subject: Copeland Manuscript Has anyone seen the Copeland Manuscript that is in a Columbia SC library? If so, which library is it in? Sue Stepp [email protected] ==== COPELAND Mailing List ==== Jesse M. Lawrence is listowner for Copeland List <[email protected]> You can view my Copeland file on Worldconnect, file name jmljr Search my data base which is updated weekly and contains notes and sources http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=jmljr ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB