Mike - I used (need to catch back up, like with everything) for organizing and really like it. But I do not use it for census. I have taken ACCESS and have devised my own census, tweaking it over the last 15 or so years. I have ID numbers in it so you can search for people or for surname or for practically any other field. If you think it would go through, and if you are an ACCESS user, I would be happy to share the blank database with you. You can change it to your own needs best. I know if I were doing it from scratch, there are a couple of changes I would make to it. That goes for anyone else using CLOOZ. (Is this all right Liz?) Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike Daugherty Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:12 PM To: clooz@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CLOOZ] Data entry questions from a rank beginner Hi Liz Thanks for the comments. When I looked back over my email of the past couple of days, it seemed to me as if I haven't done anything but complain about Clooz since I started using it. I would like to assure you that in my opinion, the positives of this application far, far outweigh the few negatives that I have seen. I am also especially impressed by the responsive and helpful attitude of your user community. You must spend a LOT of time at this effort. I was certain that adding the ability to order and retain the order of the linked people grid in the census form would be a lot of effort, but it seemed worth asking for, because of the fact that you lose all of your detailed information if you "unlink" and then "re-link" people in the proper order. Thus there isn't really a work-around for the issue. So if it can ever be incorporated into a future release of Clooz, it would sure be a nice thing to have. If the quality of the reports that are in the system so far are any indication, I'm really looking forward to seeing the version with all of the reports available. One of my many hats that I have worn over the past 20 years or so has been as a report designer and writer for the DOD - first in old DOS applications that no-one today has ever heard of, then in ORACLE, then in ORACLE 3rd party tools, then some Access and some FoxPro. I've been really impressed with the quality of the reports that are in place now. I can hardly wait to see the rest of them. Thanks Mike D. -----Original Message----- From: clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Kelley Kerstens, CG, CGL Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 12:16 PM To: clooz@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CLOOZ] Data entry questions from a rank beginner At 10:31 PM 8/31/2006, you wrote: >I had hoped there might be a work-around to question 1, or that I was just >wrong about it. I have only been using Clooz for 2 days and have only >entered a handful of records, but I can see that having forms autofill with >repetitive data is of great benefit. But in just 2 days I have >inadvertently answered "Yes" 3 times when I should have said "No". Mike, I'll have to add this to the wish list. It won't be added to version 2.1. >In question 3, Terri raises an interesting point with her comment. It is a >fine feature that you can reorder the people in the linked people grid in >the census window by clicking on the headers, but when you exit from the >form and return to it, the people have returned to whatever arbitrary sort >order has been established for them when the form was designed. But since >the columns are re-orderable at will within the grid, my problem would be >solved if the grid had just 1 more column in it. If only the "Line #" could >be in the grid too!! Though I'm sure that would probably be a major pain in >the kabookie to accomplish because all of the fields that are displayed >currently in the grid are from the table that holds an individual person's >information, whereas the Line # has got to be in a completely different data >table. It sure would be nice, though, to be able to see the rows at this >point in the order in which they will appear on the census report. I actually asked my programmer about adding the ability for this grid to retain it's order and he said it would be a massive rework, so we're not willing to do that at this time, but will consider it for the future. Adding the line # to the list of people linked to a document will not happen because, as you point out, the data is coming from a different location. > >From what you ladies say about question 4, I assume that what I had observed >during the "unlink" process was true. But it would seem to me that the >developers should consider the possibility of a safety net here, so that >your data doesn't get deleted so easily, especially if you get your eyes >crossed and unlink the wrong person, like I did this afternoon when I had >two individuals one row apart, one of whom was named James and the other >John. This is especially important, since the vast majority of the census >information is entered in at the "detailed information" level. Something >like the mechanism that is in place when you hit the "Delete Census" button >would probably solve the problem adequately. When you click that button you >get a warning message telling you that you are about to delete the census >record and all linked records. You then have a "Yes" or "No" option. I >think something like that would also be helpful on the "Unlink" button. In earlier versions of Clooz I had the program ask to verify nearly everything a user did and users complained about the messages. So, I have minimized the amount of messages that ask the user for confirmation. >The last question (4) brings to mind something else right along those same >lines. If you [Esc] from the detailed information form, even after filling >in a lot of information, Clooz doesn't give you any warning that you are >going to lose all of the information that you have just entered. > >Furthermore, if you pull up an existing census record. >Unlink a person. >Hit [Esc]. >You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid >losing your data by clicking "No". >Answer "No" which exits from the form. >Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you removed is >still gone. > >The oppisite is also true: >Pull up an existing census record. >Link a person. >Hit [Esc]. >You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid >saving your changes. >Answer "No" which exits from the form. >Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you added is >still there. Linking and data entry are two different functions in Clooz. The escape button is there to allow you to escape and not make any changes to the data entered. But linking either happens or doesn't happen and is not, as you discovered, affected by the Escape button. As long as you realize how the program works, hopefully you can remember to use the appropriate buttons. This complete rewrite of Clooz took 5 years and has been a massive undertaking for me. I am a one-person company and don't have a corporation behind me to absorb time and costs, so any redesign is major and has to be considered from a time and cost perspective. But I do listen to all suggestions. Liz Kerstens ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLOOZ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLOOZ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Carolyn I would love to have a copy of your Access DB to try out. Although I have very little genealogical research experience (which should be painfully obvious from the content of my messages both here and at TMG), I do have a fair amount of database development experience. I started using The Master Genealogist software about 2 months ago, after becoming frustrated with the limitations of Family Tree Maker. I like TMG better and better with each passing week. But it has a learning curve that practically brings tears to my eyes. The problem with learning TMG is that it will let you do just about anything you want, meaning that there are so many different ways to do nearly anything that it is often difficult for the novice (like me) to know what they SHOULD do to handle a given situation. But like most genealogical softwares, it has no real mechanism for tracking documents. That brought me to Clooz. What would be really cool would be if there was a document management software that would work hand-in-hand with TMG. I've been bugging Bob Velke and the other folks at Wholly Genes about incorporating a document management module into a future release of TMG, but talk about major tasks...(and probably a futile wish). So presently I'm doing a little duplicate data entry (not a lot, actually, because the people records in Clooz don't hold a lot of information). The biggest, and most dangerous task, is in using the Alternate ID field in Clooz to correlate my people records from Clooz with my people from TMG. This means, of course, that I can never use the renumbering utility in TMG without either screwing up the relationship to numbers in the Alternate ID field in Clooz, or necessitating that I manually renumber them to keep them in sync. I am finding Clooz 2 to be really enjoyable to use, though. It is obvious that a lot of time and effort went into its development, and I am finding it to be much easier to understand and use than its (few) competitors. Do you need my direct email address? Thanks Mike -----Original Message----- From: clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn Gibbons Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:29 PM To: clooz@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CLOOZ] Data entry questions from a rank beginner Mike - I used (need to catch back up, like with everything) for organizing and really like it. But I do not use it for census. I have taken ACCESS and have devised my own census, tweaking it over the last 15 or so years. I have ID numbers in it so you can search for people or for surname or for practically any other field. If you think it would go through, and if you are an ACCESS user, I would be happy to share the blank database with you. You can change it to your own needs best. I know if I were doing it from scratch, there are a couple of changes I would make to it. That goes for anyone else using CLOOZ. (Is this all right Liz?) Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike Daugherty Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:12 PM To: clooz@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CLOOZ] Data entry questions from a rank beginner Hi Liz Thanks for the comments. When I looked back over my email of the past couple of days, it seemed to me as if I haven't done anything but complain about Clooz since I started using it. I would like to assure you that in my opinion, the positives of this application far, far outweigh the few negatives that I have seen. I am also especially impressed by the responsive and helpful attitude of your user community. You must spend a LOT of time at this effort. I was certain that adding the ability to order and retain the order of the linked people grid in the census form would be a lot of effort, but it seemed worth asking for, because of the fact that you lose all of your detailed information if you "unlink" and then "re-link" people in the proper order. Thus there isn't really a work-around for the issue. So if it can ever be incorporated into a future release of Clooz, it would sure be a nice thing to have. If the quality of the reports that are in the system so far are any indication, I'm really looking forward to seeing the version with all of the reports available. One of my many hats that I have worn over the past 20 years or so has been as a report designer and writer for the DOD - first in old DOS applications that no-one today has ever heard of, then in ORACLE, then in ORACLE 3rd party tools, then some Access and some FoxPro. I've been really impressed with the quality of the reports that are in place now. I can hardly wait to see the rest of them. Thanks Mike D. -----Original Message----- From: clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Kelley Kerstens, CG, CGL Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 12:16 PM To: clooz@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CLOOZ] Data entry questions from a rank beginner At 10:31 PM 8/31/2006, you wrote: >I had hoped there might be a work-around to question 1, or that I was just >wrong about it. I have only been using Clooz for 2 days and have only >entered a handful of records, but I can see that having forms autofill with >repetitive data is of great benefit. But in just 2 days I have >inadvertently answered "Yes" 3 times when I should have said "No". Mike, I'll have to add this to the wish list. It won't be added to version 2.1. >In question 3, Terri raises an interesting point with her comment. It is a >fine feature that you can reorder the people in the linked people grid in >the census window by clicking on the headers, but when you exit from the >form and return to it, the people have returned to whatever arbitrary sort >order has been established for them when the form was designed. But since >the columns are re-orderable at will within the grid, my problem would be >solved if the grid had just 1 more column in it. If only the "Line #" could >be in the grid too!! Though I'm sure that would probably be a major pain in >the kabookie to accomplish because all of the fields that are displayed >currently in the grid are from the table that holds an individual person's >information, whereas the Line # has got to be in a completely different data >table. It sure would be nice, though, to be able to see the rows at this >point in the order in which they will appear on the census report. I actually asked my programmer about adding the ability for this grid to retain it's order and he said it would be a massive rework, so we're not willing to do that at this time, but will consider it for the future. Adding the line # to the list of people linked to a document will not happen because, as you point out, the data is coming from a different location. > >From what you ladies say about question 4, I assume that what I had observed >during the "unlink" process was true. But it would seem to me that the >developers should consider the possibility of a safety net here, so that >your data doesn't get deleted so easily, especially if you get your eyes >crossed and unlink the wrong person, like I did this afternoon when I had >two individuals one row apart, one of whom was named James and the other >John. This is especially important, since the vast majority of the census >information is entered in at the "detailed information" level. Something >like the mechanism that is in place when you hit the "Delete Census" button >would probably solve the problem adequately. When you click that button you >get a warning message telling you that you are about to delete the census >record and all linked records. You then have a "Yes" or "No" option. I >think something like that would also be helpful on the "Unlink" button. In earlier versions of Clooz I had the program ask to verify nearly everything a user did and users complained about the messages. So, I have minimized the amount of messages that ask the user for confirmation. >The last question (4) brings to mind something else right along those same >lines. If you [Esc] from the detailed information form, even after filling >in a lot of information, Clooz doesn't give you any warning that you are >going to lose all of the information that you have just entered. > >Furthermore, if you pull up an existing census record. >Unlink a person. >Hit [Esc]. >You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid >losing your data by clicking "No". >Answer "No" which exits from the form. >Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you removed is >still gone. > >The oppisite is also true: >Pull up an existing census record. >Link a person. >Hit [Esc]. >You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid >saving your changes. >Answer "No" which exits from the form. >Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you added is >still there. Linking and data entry are two different functions in Clooz. The escape button is there to allow you to escape and not make any changes to the data entered. But linking either happens or doesn't happen and is not, as you discovered, affected by the Escape button. As long as you realize how the program works, hopefully you can remember to use the appropriate buttons. This complete rewrite of Clooz took 5 years and has been a massive undertaking for me. I am a one-person company and don't have a corporation behind me to absorb time and costs, so any redesign is major and has to be considered from a time and cost perspective. But I do listen to all suggestions. Liz Kerstens ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLOOZ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLOOZ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLOOZ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message