Hi My thanks to Georgia and Terri for the really helpful replies. I had hoped there might be a work-around to question 1, or that I was just wrong about it. I have only been using Clooz for 2 days and have only entered a handful of records, but I can see that having forms autofill with repetitive data is of great benefit. But in just 2 days I have inadvertently answered "Yes" 3 times when I should have said "No". As for question 2, after I got your replies, I did a more thorough search at the RootsWeb archive, and saw that the multiple-selection issue had already been reported. I was interested to see that this feature was already a part of the previous release. In question 3, Terri raises an interesting point with her comment. It is a fine feature that you can reorder the people in the linked people grid in the census window by clicking on the headers, but when you exit from the form and return to it, the people have returned to whatever arbitrary sort order has been established for them when the form was designed. But since the columns are re-orderable at will within the grid, my problem would be solved if the grid had just 1 more column in it. If only the "Line #" could be in the grid too!! Though I'm sure that would probably be a major pain in the kabookie to accomplish because all of the fields that are displayed currently in the grid are from the table that holds an individual person's information, whereas the Line # has got to be in a completely different data table. It sure would be nice, though, to be able to see the rows at this point in the order in which they will appear on the census report. >From what you ladies say about question 4, I assume that what I had observed during the "unlink" process was true. But it would seem to me that the developers should consider the possibility of a safety net here, so that your data doesn't get deleted so easily, especially if you get your eyes crossed and unlink the wrong person, like I did this afternoon when I had two individuals one row apart, one of whom was named James and the other John. This is especially important, since the vast majority of the census information is entered in at the "detailed information" level. Something like the mechanism that is in place when you hit the "Delete Census" button would probably solve the problem adequately. When you click that button you get a warning message telling you that you are about to delete the census record and all linked records. You then have a "Yes" or "No" option. I think something like that would also be helpful on the "Unlink" button. The last question (4) brings to mind something else right along those same lines. If you [Esc] from the detailed information form, even after filling in a lot of information, Clooz doesn't give you any warning that you are going to lose all of the information that you have just entered. Furthermore, if you pull up an existing census record. Unlink a person. Hit [Esc]. You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid losing your data by clicking "No". Answer "No" which exits from the form. Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you removed is still gone. The oppisite is also true: Pull up an existing census record. Link a person. Hit [Esc]. You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid saving your changes. Answer "No" which exits from the form. Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you added is still there. Mike D. -----Original Message----- From: clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Terri Brown Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 8:45 PM To: clooz@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CLOOZ] Data entry questions from a rank beginner Hi, Let me see if I can help. I've been using Clooz 2.0 regularly for a while now. YOU WROTE: 1. With an existing census record, where I have fully entered the > census data, linked multiple people to the record, and added detail > information for them - if I then double click on one of the linked people > to > view the detail information, Clooz asks me if I want to fill the detail > form > with the previous data and defaults to "Yes". If I accidentally hit "Yes" > at that point, rather than "No", will it destroy the detail information > that > has been entered and replace it with the previous record data? Might it > not > be better if this prompt only appeared when the record for the linked > person > does not yet contain any detailed information data? ANSWER: If you accidentally hit "Yes", any data existing in the detail form will be replaced. I have done it several times. Maybe Liz can put your idea on a "wishlist". YOU WROTE: 2. When I click the "Link People" button in the census form, Clooz only > allows me to select one person at a time from the people picklist, even > though I will probably normally have multiple people that I want to link > to > the census record. I tried every combination of "Ctrl-Click" or > "Shift-Click" that I have ever used in similar situations in other > softwares > to no avail. Am I doing something wrong here? Must people be linked one > at > a time? ANSWER: I believe this will be corrected in Clooz 2.1. YOU WROTE: 3. Is there any mechanism to "reorder" people in the linked people grid > on a census form? Ideally, (at least in my rather confused brain) it > would > seem like the first row in the grid should contain the uppermost row that > I > have entered from the census page (or perhaps the earliest line number). > But if I don't pick them initially from the pick list in the appropriate > order, they seem to end up in the form out of order, and with no way to > fix > it, short of unlinking them and starting over. But if I unlink people so > that I can reorder them, doesn't it destroy their related detailed > information? ANSWER: I think I understand what you are asking. You have to pick people in the order they appear in the census to accomplish what you are asking. You can reorder people by clicking on the column headers of ID, Alternate ID, Surname, Given Name, Birth/Baptism Date, Marriage Date, and Death/Burial Date. You can shift-click or ctrl-click on any combination of column headers, ie sort by Surname then Given Name then Death/Burial Date. A little arrow will appear on the right side of the column to show ascending or descending sort order. I would imagine that people will sort in proper order in the Reports. The reports will be completed in version 2.1. YOU WROTE: 4. Question 3 brings me to my final question (final for now. I'll > probably have a boat-load of really stupid questions to ask before all is > said and done). If I "unlink" a person from a census record, they > immediately vanish from the data entry grid. Is that person now GONE, > along > with all of the detailed information that has been entered for them? Or > if > I then escape from the form rather than saving changes, will it all > reappear? If it really is gone, in such a case as this, other > applications > that I have used would prompt you with some sort of "Are you sure" message > before allowing the deletion of the information. ANSWER: Once a person in "unlinked" from any template, including census, that person's information is completely removed from the template. Escaping from the form does not retain the unlinked information. I hope this makes sense and helps. Terri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Daugherty" <mmj7806@adelphia.net> To: <CLOOZ@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 5:23 PM Subject: [CLOOZ] Data entry questions from a rank beginner > Hi > > > > I am very new to the Clooz community, and to the document management > community in general, for that matter. I just purchased and began using > Clooz 2.0 a couple of days ago. I bought the product initially to use in > trying to make some sense of the mound of census records that I have been > accumulating as I do family research for entry into The Master > Genealogist. > > > > I really like the straight-forward nature of the program and the relative > ease of data entry. This is especially appreciated in comparison to the > bear that TMG is to learn to use. I don't mean to run TMG down here. > It's > a great product, but it has a learning curve that leaves me breathless > sometimes. > > > > So far I have only used the people and 1930 and 1920 U.S. census forms in > Clooz. My data entry questions at this point all relate to census records > and are as follows: > > > > 1. With an existing census record, where I have fully entered the > census data, linked multiple people to the record, and added detail > information for them - if I then double click on one of the linked people > to > view the detail information, Clooz asks me if I want to fill the detail > form > with the previous data and defaults to "Yes". If I accidentally hit "Yes" > at that point, rather than "No", will it destroy the detail information > that > has been entered and replace it with the previous record data? Might it > not > be better if this prompt only appeared when the record for the linked > person > does not yet contain any detailed information data? > > > > 2. When I click the "Link People" button in the census form, Clooz only > allows me to select one person at a time from the people picklist, even > though I will probably normally have multiple people that I want to link > to > the census record. I tried every combination of "Ctrl-Click" or > "Shift-Click" that I have ever used in similar situations in other > softwares > to no avail. Am I doing something wrong here? Must people be linked one > at > a time? > > > > 3. Is there any mechanism to "reorder" people in the linked people grid > on a census form? Ideally, (at least in my rather confused brain) it > would > seem like the first row in the grid should contain the uppermost row that > I > have entered from the census page (or perhaps the earliest line number). > But if I don't pick them initially from the pick list in the appropriate > order, they seem to end up in the form out of order, and with no way to > fix > it, short of unlinking them and starting over. But if I unlink people so > that I can reorder them, doesn't it destroy their related detailed > information? > > > > 4. Question 3 brings me to my final question (final for now. I'll > probably have a boat-load of really stupid questions to ask before all is > said and done). If I "unlink" a person from a census record, they > immediately vanish from the data entry grid. Is that person now GONE, > along > with all of the detailed information that has been entered for them? Or > if > I then escape from the form rather than saving changes, will it all > reappear? If it really is gone, in such a case as this, other > applications > that I have used would prompt you with some sort of "Are you sure" message > before allowing the deletion of the information. > > > > Any advice regarding these questions would be greatly appreciated (or any > other Clooz advice, for that matter). > > > > Thanks > > > > Mike D. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CLOOZ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLOOZ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 10:31 PM 8/31/2006, you wrote: >I had hoped there might be a work-around to question 1, or that I was just >wrong about it. I have only been using Clooz for 2 days and have only >entered a handful of records, but I can see that having forms autofill with >repetitive data is of great benefit. But in just 2 days I have >inadvertently answered "Yes" 3 times when I should have said "No". Mike, I'll have to add this to the wish list. It won't be added to version 2.1. >In question 3, Terri raises an interesting point with her comment. It is a >fine feature that you can reorder the people in the linked people grid in >the census window by clicking on the headers, but when you exit from the >form and return to it, the people have returned to whatever arbitrary sort >order has been established for them when the form was designed. But since >the columns are re-orderable at will within the grid, my problem would be >solved if the grid had just 1 more column in it. If only the "Line #" could >be in the grid too!! Though I'm sure that would probably be a major pain in >the kabookie to accomplish because all of the fields that are displayed >currently in the grid are from the table that holds an individual person's >information, whereas the Line # has got to be in a completely different data >table. It sure would be nice, though, to be able to see the rows at this >point in the order in which they will appear on the census report. I actually asked my programmer about adding the ability for this grid to retain it's order and he said it would be a massive rework, so we're not willing to do that at this time, but will consider it for the future. Adding the line # to the list of people linked to a document will not happen because, as you point out, the data is coming from a different location. > >From what you ladies say about question 4, I assume that what I had observed >during the "unlink" process was true. But it would seem to me that the >developers should consider the possibility of a safety net here, so that >your data doesn't get deleted so easily, especially if you get your eyes >crossed and unlink the wrong person, like I did this afternoon when I had >two individuals one row apart, one of whom was named James and the other >John. This is especially important, since the vast majority of the census >information is entered in at the "detailed information" level. Something >like the mechanism that is in place when you hit the "Delete Census" button >would probably solve the problem adequately. When you click that button you >get a warning message telling you that you are about to delete the census >record and all linked records. You then have a "Yes" or "No" option. I >think something like that would also be helpful on the "Unlink" button. In earlier versions of Clooz I had the program ask to verify nearly everything a user did and users complained about the messages. So, I have minimized the amount of messages that ask the user for confirmation. >The last question (4) brings to mind something else right along those same >lines. If you [Esc] from the detailed information form, even after filling >in a lot of information, Clooz doesn't give you any warning that you are >going to lose all of the information that you have just entered. > >Furthermore, if you pull up an existing census record. >Unlink a person. >Hit [Esc]. >You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid >losing your data by clicking "No". >Answer "No" which exits from the form. >Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you removed is >still gone. > >The oppisite is also true: >Pull up an existing census record. >Link a person. >Hit [Esc]. >You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid >saving your changes. >Answer "No" which exits from the form. >Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you added is >still there. Linking and data entry are two different functions in Clooz. The escape button is there to allow you to escape and not make any changes to the data entered. But linking either happens or doesn't happen and is not, as you discovered, affected by the Escape button. As long as you realize how the program works, hopefully you can remember to use the appropriate buttons. This complete rewrite of Clooz took 5 years and has been a massive undertaking for me. I am a one-person company and don't have a corporation behind me to absorb time and costs, so any redesign is major and has to be considered from a time and cost perspective. But I do listen to all suggestions. Liz Kerstens

Hi Liz Thanks for the comments. When I looked back over my email of the past couple of days, it seemed to me as if I haven't done anything but complain about Clooz since I started using it. I would like to assure you that in my opinion, the positives of this application far, far outweigh the few negatives that I have seen. I am also especially impressed by the responsive and helpful attitude of your user community. You must spend a LOT of time at this effort. I was certain that adding the ability to order and retain the order of the linked people grid in the census form would be a lot of effort, but it seemed worth asking for, because of the fact that you lose all of your detailed information if you "unlink" and then "re-link" people in the proper order. Thus there isn't really a work-around for the issue. So if it can ever be incorporated into a future release of Clooz, it would sure be a nice thing to have. If the quality of the reports that are in the system so far are any indication, I'm really looking forward to seeing the version with all of the reports available. One of my many hats that I have worn over the past 20 years or so has been as a report designer and writer for the DOD - first in old DOS applications that no-one today has ever heard of, then in ORACLE, then in ORACLE 3rd party tools, then some Access and some FoxPro. I've been really impressed with the quality of the reports that are in place now. I can hardly wait to see the rest of them. Thanks Mike D. -----Original Message----- From: clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:clooz-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Kelley Kerstens, CG, CGL Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 12:16 PM To: clooz@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CLOOZ] Data entry questions from a rank beginner At 10:31 PM 8/31/2006, you wrote: >I had hoped there might be a work-around to question 1, or that I was just >wrong about it. I have only been using Clooz for 2 days and have only >entered a handful of records, but I can see that having forms autofill with >repetitive data is of great benefit. But in just 2 days I have >inadvertently answered "Yes" 3 times when I should have said "No". Mike, I'll have to add this to the wish list. It won't be added to version 2.1. >In question 3, Terri raises an interesting point with her comment. It is a >fine feature that you can reorder the people in the linked people grid in >the census window by clicking on the headers, but when you exit from the >form and return to it, the people have returned to whatever arbitrary sort >order has been established for them when the form was designed. But since >the columns are re-orderable at will within the grid, my problem would be >solved if the grid had just 1 more column in it. If only the "Line #" could >be in the grid too!! Though I'm sure that would probably be a major pain in >the kabookie to accomplish because all of the fields that are displayed >currently in the grid are from the table that holds an individual person's >information, whereas the Line # has got to be in a completely different data >table. It sure would be nice, though, to be able to see the rows at this >point in the order in which they will appear on the census report. I actually asked my programmer about adding the ability for this grid to retain it's order and he said it would be a massive rework, so we're not willing to do that at this time, but will consider it for the future. Adding the line # to the list of people linked to a document will not happen because, as you point out, the data is coming from a different location. > >From what you ladies say about question 4, I assume that what I had observed >during the "unlink" process was true. But it would seem to me that the >developers should consider the possibility of a safety net here, so that >your data doesn't get deleted so easily, especially if you get your eyes >crossed and unlink the wrong person, like I did this afternoon when I had >two individuals one row apart, one of whom was named James and the other >John. This is especially important, since the vast majority of the census >information is entered in at the "detailed information" level. Something >like the mechanism that is in place when you hit the "Delete Census" button >would probably solve the problem adequately. When you click that button you >get a warning message telling you that you are about to delete the census >record and all linked records. You then have a "Yes" or "No" option. I >think something like that would also be helpful on the "Unlink" button. In earlier versions of Clooz I had the program ask to verify nearly everything a user did and users complained about the messages. So, I have minimized the amount of messages that ask the user for confirmation. >The last question (4) brings to mind something else right along those same >lines. If you [Esc] from the detailed information form, even after filling >in a lot of information, Clooz doesn't give you any warning that you are >going to lose all of the information that you have just entered. > >Furthermore, if you pull up an existing census record. >Unlink a person. >Hit [Esc]. >You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid >losing your data by clicking "No". >Answer "No" which exits from the form. >Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you removed is >still gone. > >The oppisite is also true: >Pull up an existing census record. >Link a person. >Hit [Esc]. >You then get an unsaved data message which indicates that you can avoid >saving your changes. >Answer "No" which exits from the form. >Bring the census record back up - and the linked person that you added is >still there. Linking and data entry are two different functions in Clooz. The escape button is there to allow you to escape and not make any changes to the data entered. But linking either happens or doesn't happen and is not, as you discovered, affected by the Escape button. As long as you realize how the program works, hopefully you can remember to use the appropriate buttons. This complete rewrite of Clooz took 5 years and has been a massive undertaking for me. I am a one-person company and don't have a corporation behind me to absorb time and costs, so any redesign is major and has to be considered from a time and cost perspective. But I do listen to all suggestions. Liz Kerstens ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLOOZ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message