Mike I must comment on point 5 below. Having done transcripts of very many cemetery registers, it is not uncommon for there to be two children in a family with the same name. If you can chase the records through you often find that the first child died before the second was born. Subsequently another child was given the previous name. Presumably in some sort of commemoration of the first child. It was a  common occurance in earlier times for children to die before the age of about five. In fact I have just such an occurence in my Boyd line. James Boyd (1746-1815) and Jane Robertson (1765-1828) had a son John born in 1802, and then another son John born in March 1803 . I am yet to find any record of the first John's christening or death. I thought this information might be useful to you. Steve Boyd Melton, Victoria, Australia > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:28:27 +1000 > From: "Mike Boyd" <[email protected]> > Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Mary E Boyd of Cumberland Co., PA who married > John Aikman - said to be daughter of Rev Adam Boyd of Upper Octorara, > PA > To: "David Boyd" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Dave and List > ..............snip........... > >In this case, it is known that Rev Adam Boyd’s elder brother was – >1)            John Boyd born in 1690 said at Edinburgh, Scotland >2)            While his younger brother, (Rev) Adam Boyd was born in 1692 with most sources saying in Ballymoney, but some say at Ballymena.  But I have not seen any hard evidence either way. >3)            The we have your George Boyd being born in Airth, Stirlingshire in 1691 >4)            And another brother James Boyd being Baptised there in 4 January 1694, at Airth, Stirlingshire, suggesting he was born late 1693. >5)            And George and James’s parents also have a son named John Boyd born in 1687 at Airth.  So, it is very unlikely that they would name two sons “John”. > ..............snip...........

I do not know the cultural origins of the Scottish Naming Pattern. I suspect it is extremely old, far predating Christian cultures. I am aware that analogous patterns exist in other European cultures. My son worked for agricultural extension in remote areas of Mali, West Africa. Nominally Muslim, they still maintained a standing stone dedicated to ancestors in a remote grove of trees which were never harvested. Following the birth of a child, they held some sort of naming ceremony involving placing blood as an offering to sanctify the name of that child, and pray that one of the ancestors would sponsor that child’s existence. I have at least two clear instances of re-using names following death of an infant in my own direct Shields line. My great grandfather’s uncle John Shields lived beside Loudoun Castle. He married Jean Young, a neighbor at Loudoun Altoun. His first child, born 1812, was William (paternal grandfather’s name). This William Shields died early in 1831. Late in 1831, Jean Young Shields gave birth to their 9th child, named William Shields. That is amply documented. I find a couple more instances of that in the next generation. But following 1850, family size begins to shrink dramatically — and I find no further instances of “filling in the grid.” But that fact baffled the earliest genealogist to work on that family. > On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:05 AM, Steve Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mike > > I must comment on point 5 below. > > Having done transcripts of very many cemetery registers, it is not uncommon for there to be two children in a family with the same name. > If you can chase the records through you often find that the first child died before the second was born. > Subsequently another child was given the previous name. Presumably in some sort of commemoration of the first child. > It was a common occurance in earlier times for children to die before the age of about five. > > In fact I have just such an occurence in my Boyd line. > James Boyd (1746-1815) and Jane Robertson (1765-1828) had a son John born in 1802, and then another son John born in March 1803 . > I am yet to find any record of the first John's christening or death. > > I thought this information might be useful to you. > > Steve Boyd > Melton, Victoria, Australia > > > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:28:27 +1000 > > From: "Mike Boyd" <[email protected]> > > Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Mary E Boyd of Cumberland Co., PA who married > > John Aikman - said to be daughter of Rev Adam Boyd of Upper Octorara, > > PA > > To: "David Boyd" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > Dave and List > > > ..............snip........... > > > > >In this case, it is known that Rev Adam Boyd’s elder brother was – > >1) John Boyd born in 1690 said at Edinburgh, Scotland > >2) While his younger brother, (Rev) Adam Boyd was born in 1692 with most sources saying in Ballymoney, but some say at Ballymena. But I have not seen any hard evidence either way. > >3) The we have your George Boyd being born in Airth, Stirlingshire in 1691 > >4) And another brother James Boyd being Baptised there in 4 January 1694, at Airth, Stirlingshire, suggesting he was born late 1693. > >5) And George and James’s parents also have a son named John Boyd born in 1687 at Airth. So, it is very unlikely that they would name two sons “John”. > > > ..............snip........... > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community Bruce P. Shields 6405 Garfield Rd Hyde Park VT 05655 (802) 888 5165 [email protected]

Bruce, I spent an hour or so, this afternoon trying to find my Naming Pattern details, for Scotland and Ireland and other counties. Without any luck There is an naming pattern used in Scotland. But that is "upset" when one of the children die and the name is re-used. Mike Boyd -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Shields Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 11:49 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name I do not know the cultural origins of the Scottish Naming Pattern. I suspect it is extremely old, far predating Christian cultures. I am aware that analogous patterns exist in other European cultures. My son worked for agricultural extension in remote areas of Mali, West Africa. Nominally Muslim, they still maintained a standing stone dedicated to ancestors in a remote grove of trees which were never harvested. Following the birth of a child, they held some sort of naming ceremony involving placing blood as an offering to sanctify the name of that child, and pray that one of the ancestors would sponsor that child’s existence. I have at least two clear instances of re-using names following death of an infant in my own direct Shields line. My great grandfather’s uncle John Shields lived beside Loudoun Castle. He married Jean Young, a neighbor at Loudoun Altoun. His first child, born 1812, was William (paternal grandfather’s name). This William Shields died early in 1831. Late in 1831, Jean Young Shields gave birth to their 9th child, named William Shields. That is amply documented. I find a couple more instances of that in the next generation. But following 1850, family size begins to shrink dramatically — and I find no further instances of “filling in the grid.” But that fact baffled the earliest genealogist to work on that family. > On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:05 AM, Steve Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mike > > I must comment on point 5 below. > > Having done transcripts of very many cemetery registers, it is not > uncommon for there to be two children in a family with the same name. > If you can chase the records through you often find that the first child > died before the second was born. > Subsequently another child was given the previous name. Presumably in some > sort of commemoration of the first child. > It was a common occurance in earlier times for children to die before the > age of about five. > > In fact I have just such an occurence in my Boyd line. > James Boyd (1746-1815) and Jane Robertson (1765-1828) had a son John born > in 1802, and then another son John born in March 1803 . > I am yet to find any record of the first John's christening or death. > > I thought this information might be useful to you. > > Steve Boyd > Melton, Victoria, Australia > > > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:28:27 +1000 > > From: "Mike Boyd" <[email protected]> > > Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Mary E Boyd of Cumberland Co., PA who married > > John Aikman - said to be daughter of Rev Adam Boyd of Upper Octorara, > > PA > > To: "David Boyd" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > Dave and List > > > ..............snip........... > > > > >In this case, it is known that Rev Adam Boyd’s elder brother was – > >1) John Boyd born in 1690 said at Edinburgh, Scotland > >2) While his younger brother, (Rev) Adam Boyd was born in 1692 > >with most sources saying in Ballymoney, but some say at Ballymena. But I > >have not seen any hard evidence either way. > >3) The we have your George Boyd being born in Airth, > >Stirlingshire in 1691 > >4) And another brother James Boyd being Baptised there in 4 > >January 1694, at Airth, Stirlingshire, suggesting he was born late 1693. > >5) And George and James’s parents also have a son named John > >Boyd born in 1687 at Airth. So, it is very unlikely that they would name > >two sons “John”. > > > ..............snip........... > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any > other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed > confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and > working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community Bruce P. Shields 6405 Garfield Rd Hyde Park VT 05655 (802) 888 5165 [email protected] _______________________________________________ ___________________________________ NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed confirm the facts in original sources. Clan Boyd Society, International (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Here's the naming pattern for Scotland: *The pattern generally went as follows:* - The first son was named after the father's father. - The second son after the mother's father. - The third son after the father. - The first daughter after the mother's mother. - The second daughter after the father's mother. - The third daughter after the mother. The Irish naming pattern is: *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:* - First son usually named for the father's father - Second son usually named for the mother's father - Third son usually named for the father - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother - Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother - First daughter usually named for the mother's mother - Second daughter usually named for the father's mother - Third daughter usually named for the mother - Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister - Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister. Debbie On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 at 12:12, Mike Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > Bruce, I spent an hour or so, this afternoon trying to find my Naming > Pattern details, for Scotland and Ireland and other counties. Without any > luck > > There is an naming pattern used in Scotland. > > But that is "upset" when one of the children die and the name is re-used. > > Mike Boyd > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Shields > Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 11:49 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name > > I do not know the cultural origins of the Scottish Naming Pattern. I > suspect it is extremely old, far predating Christian cultures. I am aware > that analogous patterns exist in other European cultures. My son worked > for > agricultural extension in remote areas of Mali, West Africa. Nominally > Muslim, they still maintained a standing stone dedicated to ancestors in a > remote grove of trees which were never harvested. Following the birth of > a > child, they held some sort of naming ceremony involving placing blood as > an > offering to sanctify the name of that child, and pray that one of the > ancestors would sponsor that child’s existence. > > I have at least two clear instances of re-using names following death of > an > infant in my own direct Shields line. My great grandfather’s uncle John > Shields lived beside Loudoun Castle. He married Jean Young, a neighbor at > Loudoun Altoun. His first child, born 1812, was William (paternal > grandfather’s name). This William Shields died early in 1831. Late in > 1831, Jean Young Shields gave birth to their 9th child, named William > Shields. That is amply documented. I find a couple more instances of > that > in the next generation. But following 1850, family size begins to shrink > dramatically — and I find no further instances of “filling in the grid.” > But that fact baffled the earliest genealogist to work on that family. > > > On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:05 AM, Steve Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Mike > > > > I must comment on point 5 below. > > > > Having done transcripts of very many cemetery registers, it is not > > uncommon for there to be two children in a family with the same name. > > If you can chase the records through you often find that the first child > > died before the second was born. > > Subsequently another child was given the previous name. Presumably in > some > > sort of commemoration of the first child. > > It was a common occurance in earlier times for children to die before > the > > age of about five. > > > > In fact I have just such an occurence in my Boyd line. > > James Boyd (1746-1815) and Jane Robertson (1765-1828) had a son John > born > > in 1802, and then another son John born in March 1803 . > > I am yet to find any record of the first John's christening or death. > > > > I thought this information might be useful to you. > > > > Steve Boyd > > Melton, Victoria, Australia > > > > > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:28:27 +1000 > > > From: "Mike Boyd" <[email protected]> > > > Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Mary E Boyd of Cumberland Co., PA who married > > > John Aikman - said to be daughter of Rev Adam Boyd of Upper Octorara, > > > PA > > > To: "David Boyd" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> > > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > > > Dave and List > > > > > ..............snip........... > > > > > > > >In this case, it is known that Rev Adam Boyd’s elder brother was – > > >1) John Boyd born in 1690 said at Edinburgh, Scotland > > >2) While his younger brother, (Rev) Adam Boyd was born in > 1692 > > >with most sources saying in Ballymoney, but some say at Ballymena. But > I > > >have not seen any hard evidence either way. > > >3) The we have your George Boyd being born in Airth, > > >Stirlingshire in 1691 > > >4) And another brother James Boyd being Baptised there in 4 > > >January 1694, at Airth, Stirlingshire, suggesting he was born late 1693. > > >5) And George and James’s parents also have a son named John > > >Boyd born in 1687 at Airth. So, it is very unlikely that they would > name > > >two sons “John”. > > > > > ..............snip........... > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________ > > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any > > other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed > > confirm the facts in original sources. > > > > Clan Boyd Society, International > > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and > > working. > > _______________________________________________ > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > community > > Bruce P. Shields > 6405 Garfield Rd > Hyde Park VT 05655 > (802) 888 5165 > [email protected] > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any > other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed > confirm > the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any > other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed > confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > -- Debbie Rea

I grasp what Mike is getting at. If you have a complete family record, as I have for the family of John Shields of Alton Loudoun, you can plainly see that the first son born in 1812 died and was replaced by the 9th son born in 1832. From the complete grid, the replacement is clear. But I think what Mike is getting at is that when the record is full of gaps, the modern researcher has no way to sort that out. John stayed in the same cottage on the Loudoun estate while his family was growing. But if he had moved to a different county, so that the first William was not known to us at the time, we might think that William born 1833 was John’s 7th child, and we would never dream that John’s father was named William. This is always a useful caution: we may not have access to all the relevant records. The naming pattern up to 1850 gives a hint of where to look. It is not a cast in bronze rule — and I can document Scottish intellectuals who completely evaded the pattern. > On Dec 6, 2019, at 7:35 AM, Deborah Rea <[email protected]> wrote: > > Here's the naming pattern for Scotland: > > *The pattern generally went as follows:* > > - The first son was named after the father's father. > - The second son after the mother's father. > - The third son after the father. > - The first daughter after the mother's mother. > - The second daughter after the father's mother. > - The third daughter after the mother. > > The Irish naming pattern is: > > *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the > later 19th century:* > > - First son usually named for the father's father > - Second son usually named for the mother's father > - Third son usually named for the father > - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother > - Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother > - First daughter usually named for the mother's mother > - Second daughter usually named for the father's mother > - Third daughter usually named for the mother > - Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister > - Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister. > > > Debbie > > On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 at 12:12, Mike Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Bruce, I spent an hour or so, this afternoon trying to find my Naming >> Pattern details, for Scotland and Ireland and other counties. Without any >> luck >> >> There is an naming pattern used in Scotland. >> >> But that is "upset" when one of the children die and the name is re-used. >> >> Mike Boyd >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bruce Shields >> Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 11:49 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name >> >> I do not know the cultural origins of the Scottish Naming Pattern. I >> suspect it is extremely old, far predating Christian cultures. I am aware >> that analogous patterns exist in other European cultures. My son worked >> for >> agricultural extension in remote areas of Mali, West Africa. Nominally >> Muslim, they still maintained a standing stone dedicated to ancestors in a >> remote grove of trees which were never harvested. Following the birth of >> a >> child, they held some sort of naming ceremony involving placing blood as >> an >> offering to sanctify the name of that child, and pray that one of the >> ancestors would sponsor that child’s existence. >> >> I have at least two clear instances of re-using names following death of >> an >> infant in my own direct Shields line. My great grandfather’s uncle John >> Shields lived beside Loudoun Castle. He married Jean Young, a neighbor at >> Loudoun Altoun. His first child, born 1812, was William (paternal >> grandfather’s name). This William Shields died early in 1831. Late in >> 1831, Jean Young Shields gave birth to their 9th child, named William >> Shields. That is amply documented. I find a couple more instances of >> that >> in the next generation. But following 1850, family size begins to shrink >> dramatically — and I find no further instances of “filling in the grid.” >> But that fact baffled the earliest genealogist to work on that family. >> >>> On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:05 AM, Steve Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> I must comment on point 5 below. >>> >>> Having done transcripts of very many cemetery registers, it is not >>> uncommon for there to be two children in a family with the same name. >>> If you can chase the records through you often find that the first child >>> died before the second was born. >>> Subsequently another child was given the previous name. Presumably in >> some >>> sort of commemoration of the first child. >>> It was a common occurance in earlier times for children to die before >> the >>> age of about five. >>> >>> In fact I have just such an occurence in my Boyd line. >>> James Boyd (1746-1815) and Jane Robertson (1765-1828) had a son John >> born >>> in 1802, and then another son John born in March 1803 . >>> I am yet to find any record of the first John's christening or death. >>> >>> I thought this information might be useful to you. >>> >>> Steve Boyd >>> Melton, Victoria, Australia >>> >>>> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:28:27 +1000 >>>> From: "Mike Boyd" <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Mary E Boyd of Cumberland Co., PA who married >>>> John Aikman - said to be daughter of Rev Adam Boyd of Upper Octorara, >>>> PA >>>> To: "David Boyd" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >>>> >>>> Dave and List >>>> >>> ..............snip........... >>> >>>> >>>> In this case, it is known that Rev Adam Boyd’s elder brother was – >>>> 1) John Boyd born in 1690 said at Edinburgh, Scotland >>>> 2) While his younger brother, (Rev) Adam Boyd was born in >> 1692 >>>> with most sources saying in Ballymoney, but some say at Ballymena. But >> I >>>> have not seen any hard evidence either way. >>>> 3) The we have your George Boyd being born in Airth, >>>> Stirlingshire in 1691 >>>> 4) And another brother James Boyd being Baptised there in 4 >>>> January 1694, at Airth, Stirlingshire, suggesting he was born late 1693. >>>> 5) And George and James’s parents also have a son named John >>>> Boyd born in 1687 at Airth. So, it is very unlikely that they would >> name >>>> two sons “John”. >>>> >>> ..............snip........... >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________ >>> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >>> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >>> confirm the facts in original sources. >>> >>> Clan Boyd Society, International >>> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and >>> working. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>> Unsubscribe >>> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >>> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >>> community >> >> Bruce P. Shields >> 6405 Garfield Rd >> Hyde Park VT 05655 >> (802) 888 5165 >> [email protected] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________ >> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >> confirm >> the facts in original sources. >> >> Clan Boyd Society, International >> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >> Unsubscribe >> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >> community >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________ >> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >> confirm the facts in original sources. >> >> Clan Boyd Society, International >> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >> Unsubscribe >> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >> community >> > > > -- > Debbie Rea > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Bruce and all At any time where you are trying to go back another generation in your Boyd family tree and you have no “Folklore” to work with, etc, both the Irish and Scottish naming pattern’s as outlined by Debbie MIGHT BE OR COULD BE USEFUL in your possible area of research or where you may need to look. If you look at the known children - in say your third known generation – this will allow you to see if the family has applied the naming pattern for that generation. NORMALLY, if you have a child about every two years, you can be reasonably sure that you have most of the children. But if there are 3, 4, or 5-year gaps, between the known children, it may suggest that others were born and died at birth, within a few weeks or even in a year or so. And if gaps do occur in this third generation, it does make it a little more difficult to research. But, if we use John Boyd’s recent posting on his family, as an example. And if we assume that this William Boyd of NC, born in 1772, had a “first known son of James Boyd”. So, when John is looking in NC “records”, he would now start to look for a possible father of William Boyd, of “James Boyd”. So, in this case it would allow us to look at all the James Boyd’s listed in the 1790 US Census for North Carolina. This may give you 2, 3, or 4 people to look at – with the County they came from – compared to the 35 or so Boyds listed in this Census. However, tomorrow if John finds out this “James Boyd” had an elder brother, called “John Boyd”, he would need to go back to the 1790 US Census for North Carolina, and look for those entries that have a “John Boyd”. And start the process of trying to remove those John Boyd families, that do not fit his known Boyd family details. And if any names are re-used for the children of this “third” generation, I would assume that you would have to adjust the naming pattern order. So, by knowing this naming pattern, it will help to narrow down your area of research. The other benefit of knowing the naming pattern, is that when you have spent two or three decades researching and “written your book”, the last Chapter, should include a degree of speculation of where future researchers might find data in future on your family. For example, if they were Presbyterian in religion, this would suggest came from either Ireland or Scotland, or a Blacksmith – suggesting that his father was also a blacksmith; or a Minister, that he is an “younger” brother. So, the “known” details of these “early” generations of your family, will be helpful in writing that last Chapter of your “book”. So, one of the sections of this last Chapter, will be using the naming pattern – perhaps both the Irish and Scottish – to suggest whom the possible father and grandfather might be. And if your Boyd family, came from Pennsylvania in the early 1700’s, I would have said that it was 99% certain that your family came from Ireland – most likely County Antrim – and were Presbyterian. But if as Mary Helton, as recently told us there were Quakers Boyds in Bucks County in 1683, this means the possible origins of early Boyd families, could also be in England rather than Ireland. And that we need to look at Quaker records and not Presbyterian records. And those records may not be in Ireland but in England. So, each known fact, may help point people where to look for records on your family So, use your “years” of experience of find hard data on your family to point the direction of where your family MIGHT HAVE COME FROM, prior to being at a location within the USA, Ireland or England. And this is also why it is useful to know where other people in your known location came from. And you need to leave signposts, for the future generation and writers of your family story, may start to look for the data that you could not find in your own research. And these “suggestions” or “speculations” may help the next generations to ask the questions that you did not think of, while trying to get your hard data on your family. Or your Boyd family may be just one of those families that did not follow the rules. But all these “aids” need to be used to point others where to look for your family origins in future. I hope that I have outlined this clearly. Mike Boyd Brisbane, Aust -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Shields Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 11:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name I grasp what Mike is getting at. If you have a complete family record, as I have for the family of John Shields of Alton Loudoun, you can plainly see that the first son born in 1812 died and was replaced by the 9th son born in 1832. From the complete grid, the replacement is clear. But I think what Mike is getting at is that when the record is full of gaps, the modern researcher has no way to sort that out. John stayed in the same cottage on the Loudoun estate while his family was growing. But if he had moved to a different county, so that the first William was not known to us at the time, we might think that William born 1833 was John’s 7th child, and we would never dream that John’s father was named William. This is always a useful caution: we may not have access to all the relevant records. The naming pattern up to 1850 gives a hint of where to look. It is not a cast in bronze rule — and I can document Scottish intellectuals who completely evaded the pattern. > On Dec 6, 2019, at 7:35 AM, Deborah Rea <[email protected]> wrote: > > Here's the naming pattern for Scotland: > > *The pattern generally went as follows:* > > - The first son was named after the father's father. > - The second son after the mother's father. > - The third son after the father. > - The first daughter after the mother's mother. > - The second daughter after the father's mother. > - The third daughter after the mother. > > The Irish naming pattern is: > > *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the > later 19th century:* > > - First son usually named for the father's father > - Second son usually named for the mother's father > - Third son usually named for the father > - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother > - Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother > - First daughter usually named for the mother's mother > - Second daughter usually named for the father's mother > - Third daughter usually named for the mother > - Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister > - Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister. > > > Debbie > > On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 at 12:12, Mike Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Bruce, I spent an hour or so, this afternoon trying to find my Naming >> Pattern details, for Scotland and Ireland and other counties. Without >> any >> luck >> >> There is an naming pattern used in Scotland. >> >> But that is "upset" when one of the children die and the name is re-used. >> >> Mike Boyd >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bruce Shields >> Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 11:49 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name >> >> I do not know the cultural origins of the Scottish Naming Pattern. I >> suspect it is extremely old, far predating Christian cultures. I am >> aware >> that analogous patterns exist in other European cultures. My son worked >> for >> agricultural extension in remote areas of Mali, West Africa. Nominally >> Muslim, they still maintained a standing stone dedicated to ancestors in >> a >> remote grove of trees which were never harvested. Following the birth of >> a >> child, they held some sort of naming ceremony involving placing blood as >> an >> offering to sanctify the name of that child, and pray that one of the >> ancestors would sponsor that child’s existence. >> >> I have at least two clear instances of re-using names following death of >> an >> infant in my own direct Shields line. My great grandfather’s uncle John >> Shields lived beside Loudoun Castle. He married Jean Young, a neighbor >> at >> Loudoun Altoun. His first child, born 1812, was William (paternal >> grandfather’s name). This William Shields died early in 1831. Late in >> 1831, Jean Young Shields gave birth to their 9th child, named William >> Shields. That is amply documented. I find a couple more instances of >> that >> in the next generation. But following 1850, family size begins to shrink >> dramatically — and I find no further instances of “filling in the grid.” >> But that fact baffled the earliest genealogist to work on that family. >> >>> On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:05 AM, Steve Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> I must comment on point 5 below. >>> >>> Having done transcripts of very many cemetery registers, it is not >>> uncommon for there to be two children in a family with the same name. >>> If you can chase the records through you often find that the first child >>> died before the second was born. >>> Subsequently another child was given the previous name. Presumably in >> some >>> sort of commemoration of the first child. >>> It was a common occurance in earlier times for children to die before >> the >>> age of about five. >>> >>> In fact I have just such an occurence in my Boyd line. >>> James Boyd (1746-1815) and Jane Robertson (1765-1828) had a son John >> born >>> in 1802, and then another son John born in March 1803 . >>> I am yet to find any record of the first John's christening or death. >>> >>> I thought this information might be useful to you. >>> >>> Steve Boyd >>> Melton, Victoria, Australia >>> >>>> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:28:27 +1000 >>>> From: "Mike Boyd" <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Mary E Boyd of Cumberland Co., PA who married >>>> John Aikman - said to be daughter of Rev Adam Boyd of Upper Octorara, >>>> PA >>>> To: "David Boyd" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >>>> >>>> Dave and List >>>> >>> ..............snip........... >>> >>>> >>>> In this case, it is known that Rev Adam Boyd’s elder brother was – >>>> 1) John Boyd born in 1690 said at Edinburgh, Scotland >>>> 2) While his younger brother, (Rev) Adam Boyd was born in >> 1692 >>>> with most sources saying in Ballymoney, but some say at Ballymena. But >> I >>>> have not seen any hard evidence either way. >>>> 3) The we have your George Boyd being born in Airth, >>>> Stirlingshire in 1691 >>>> 4) And another brother James Boyd being Baptised there in 4 >>>> January 1694, at Airth, Stirlingshire, suggesting he was born late >>>> 1693. >>>> 5) And George and James’s parents also have a son named John >>>> Boyd born in 1687 at Airth. So, it is very unlikely that they would >> name >>>> two sons “John”. >>>> >>> ..............snip........... >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________ >>> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >>> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >>> confirm the facts in original sources. >>> >>> Clan Boyd Society, International >>> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and >>> working. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>> Unsubscribe >>> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >>> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >>> community >> >> Bruce P. Shields >> 6405 Garfield Rd >> Hyde Park VT 05655 >> (802) 888 5165 >> [email protected] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________ >> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >> confirm >> the facts in original sources. >> >> Clan Boyd Society, International >> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and >> working. >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >> Unsubscribe >> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >> community >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________ >> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >> confirm the facts in original sources. >> >> Clan Boyd Society, International >> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and >> working. >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >> Unsubscribe >> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >> community >> > > > -- > Debbie Rea > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any > other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed > confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and > working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community _______________________________________________ ___________________________________ NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed confirm the facts in original sources. Clan Boyd Society, International (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

I merely urge caution. The names can be helpful, but with limitations. Another limitation is when there is a second spouse. A friend was working the family of a particular Alexander Young. The names worked fine for the first 3 children — and then go haywire. After considerable digging, Alexander had a wife who bore him 3 children. After a gap of half a dozen years, he remarried and had seven more. We could not have unraveled that decisively had my friend not located a probate document spelling out the exact relationships. > On Dec 6, 2019, at 4:32 PM, Mike Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > > Bruce and all > > At any time where you are trying to go back another generation in your Boyd family tree and you have no “Folklore” to work with, etc, both the Irish and Scottish naming pattern’s as outlined by Debbie MIGHT BE OR COULD BE USEFUL in your possible area of research or where you may need to look. > > If you look at the known children - in say your third known generation – this will allow you to see if the family has applied the naming pattern for that generation. > > NORMALLY, if you have a child about every two years, you can be reasonably sure that you have most of the children. But if there are 3, 4, or 5-year gaps, between the known children, it may suggest that others were born and died at birth, within a few weeks or even in a year or so. And if gaps do occur in this third generation, it does make it a little more difficult to research. > > But, if we use John Boyd’s recent posting on his family, as an example. > > And if we assume that this William Boyd of NC, born in 1772, had a “first known son of James Boyd”. > > So, when John is looking in NC “records”, he would now start to look for a possible father of William Boyd, of “James Boyd”. > > So, in this case it would allow us to look at all the James Boyd’s listed in the 1790 US Census for North Carolina. This may give you 2, 3, or 4 people to look at – with the County they came from – compared to the 35 or so Boyds listed in this Census. > > However, tomorrow if John finds out this “James Boyd” had an elder brother, called “John Boyd”, he would need to go back to the 1790 US Census for North Carolina, and look for those entries that have a “John Boyd”. And start the process of trying to remove those John Boyd families, that do not fit his known Boyd family details. > > And if any names are re-used for the children of this “third” generation, I would assume that you would have to adjust the naming pattern order. > > So, by knowing this naming pattern, it will help to narrow down your area of research. > > The other benefit of knowing the naming pattern, is that when you have spent two or three decades researching and “written your book”, the last Chapter, should include a degree of speculation of where future researchers might find data in future on your family. For example, if they were Presbyterian in religion, this would suggest came from either Ireland or Scotland, or a Blacksmith – suggesting that his father was also a blacksmith; or a Minister, that he is an “younger” brother. So, the “known” details of these “early” generations of your family, will be helpful in writing that last Chapter of your “book”. > > So, one of the sections of this last Chapter, will be using the naming pattern – perhaps both the Irish and Scottish – to suggest whom the possible father and grandfather might be. > > And if your Boyd family, came from Pennsylvania in the early 1700’s, I would have said that it was 99% certain that your family came from Ireland – most likely County Antrim – and were Presbyterian. > > But if as Mary Helton, as recently told us there were Quakers Boyds in Bucks County in 1683, this means the possible origins of early Boyd families, could also be in England rather than Ireland. And that we need to look at Quaker records and not Presbyterian records. And those records may not be in Ireland but in England. So, each known fact, may help point people where to look for records on your family > > So, use your “years” of experience of find hard data on your family to point the direction of where your family MIGHT HAVE COME FROM, prior to being at a location within the USA, Ireland or England. And this is also why it is useful to know where other people in your known location came from. > > And you need to leave signposts, for the future generation and writers of your family story, may start to look for the data that you could not find in your own research. And these “suggestions” or “speculations” may help the next generations to ask the questions that you did not think of, while trying to get your hard data on your family. > > Or your Boyd family may be just one of those families that did not follow the rules. > > But all these “aids” need to be used to point others where to look for your family origins in future. > > I hope that I have outlined this clearly. > > Mike Boyd > Brisbane, Aust > > > -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Shields > Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 11:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name > > I grasp what Mike is getting at. If you have a complete family record, as I have for the family of John Shields of Alton Loudoun, you can plainly see that the first son born in 1812 died and was replaced by the 9th son born in 1832. From the complete grid, the replacement is clear. But I think what Mike is getting at is that when the record is full of gaps, the modern researcher has no way to sort that out. John stayed in the same cottage on the Loudoun estate while his family was growing. But if he had moved to a different county, so that the first William was not known to us at the time, we might think that William born 1833 was John’s 7th child, and we would never dream that John’s father was named William. This is always a useful caution: we may not have access to all the relevant records. The naming pattern up to 1850 gives a hint of where to look. It is not a cast in bronze rule — and I can document Scottish intellectuals who completely evaded the pattern. > >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 7:35 AM, Deborah Rea <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Here's the naming pattern for Scotland: >> >> *The pattern generally went as follows:* >> >> - The first son was named after the father's father. >> - The second son after the mother's father. >> - The third son after the father. >> - The first daughter after the mother's mother. >> - The second daughter after the father's mother. >> - The third daughter after the mother. >> >> The Irish naming pattern is: >> >> *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the >> later 19th century:* >> >> - First son usually named for the father's father >> - Second son usually named for the mother's father >> - Third son usually named for the father >> - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother >> - Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother >> - First daughter usually named for the mother's mother >> - Second daughter usually named for the father's mother >> - Third daughter usually named for the mother >> - Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister >> - Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister. >> >> >> Debbie >> >> On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 at 12:12, Mike Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Bruce, I spent an hour or so, this afternoon trying to find my Naming >>> Pattern details, for Scotland and Ireland and other counties. Without any >>> luck >>> >>> There is an naming pattern used in Scotland. >>> >>> But that is "upset" when one of the children die and the name is re-used. >>> >>> Mike Boyd >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bruce Shields >>> Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 11:49 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name >>> >>> I do not know the cultural origins of the Scottish Naming Pattern. I >>> suspect it is extremely old, far predating Christian cultures. I am aware >>> that analogous patterns exist in other European cultures. My son worked >>> for >>> agricultural extension in remote areas of Mali, West Africa. Nominally >>> Muslim, they still maintained a standing stone dedicated to ancestors in a >>> remote grove of trees which were never harvested. Following the birth of >>> a >>> child, they held some sort of naming ceremony involving placing blood as >>> an >>> offering to sanctify the name of that child, and pray that one of the >>> ancestors would sponsor that child’s existence. >>> >>> I have at least two clear instances of re-using names following death of >>> an >>> infant in my own direct Shields line. My great grandfather’s uncle John >>> Shields lived beside Loudoun Castle. He married Jean Young, a neighbor at >>> Loudoun Altoun. His first child, born 1812, was William (paternal >>> grandfather’s name). This William Shields died early in 1831. Late in >>> 1831, Jean Young Shields gave birth to their 9th child, named William >>> Shields. That is amply documented. I find a couple more instances of >>> that >>> in the next generation. But following 1850, family size begins to shrink >>> dramatically — and I find no further instances of “filling in the grid.” >>> But that fact baffled the earliest genealogist to work on that family. >>> >>>> On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:05 AM, Steve Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> I must comment on point 5 below. >>>> >>>> Having done transcripts of very many cemetery registers, it is not >>>> uncommon for there to be two children in a family with the same name. >>>> If you can chase the records through you often find that the first child >>>> died before the second was born. >>>> Subsequently another child was given the previous name. Presumably in >>> some >>>> sort of commemoration of the first child. >>>> It was a common occurance in earlier times for children to die before >>> the >>>> age of about five. >>>> >>>> In fact I have just such an occurence in my Boyd line. >>>> James Boyd (1746-1815) and Jane Robertson (1765-1828) had a son John >>> born >>>> in 1802, and then another son John born in March 1803 . >>>> I am yet to find any record of the first John's christening or death. >>>> >>>> I thought this information might be useful to you. >>>> >>>> Steve Boyd >>>> Melton, Victoria, Australia >>>> >>>>> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:28:27 +1000 >>>>> From: "Mike Boyd" <[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Mary E Boyd of Cumberland Co., PA who married >>>>> John Aikman - said to be daughter of Rev Adam Boyd of Upper Octorara, >>>>> PA >>>>> To: "David Boyd" <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> >>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >>>>> >>>>> Dave and List >>>>> >>>> ..............snip........... >>>> >>>>> >>>>> In this case, it is known that Rev Adam Boyd’s elder brother was – >>>>> 1) John Boyd born in 1690 said at Edinburgh, Scotland >>>>> 2) While his younger brother, (Rev) Adam Boyd was born in >>> 1692 >>>>> with most sources saying in Ballymoney, but some say at Ballymena. But >>> I >>>>> have not seen any hard evidence either way. >>>>> 3) The we have your George Boyd being born in Airth, >>>>> Stirlingshire in 1691 >>>>> 4) And another brother James Boyd being Baptised there in 4 >>>>> January 1694, at Airth, Stirlingshire, suggesting he was born late 1693. >>>>> 5) And George and James’s parents also have a son named John >>>>> Boyd born in 1687 at Airth. So, it is very unlikely that they would >>> name >>>>> two sons “John”. >>>>> >>>> ..............snip........... >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___________________________________ >>>> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >>>> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >>>> confirm the facts in original sources. >>>> >>>> Clan Boyd Society, International >>>> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and >>>> working. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>>> Unsubscribe >>>> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >>>> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>>> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>>> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>>> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >>>> community >>> >>> Bruce P. Shields >>> 6405 Garfield Rd >>> Hyde Park VT 05655 >>> (802) 888 5165 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________ >>> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >>> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >>> confirm >>> the facts in original sources. >>> >>> Clan Boyd Society, International >>> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>> Unsubscribe >>> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >>> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >>> community >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________ >>> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any >>> other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed >>> confirm the facts in original sources. >>> >>> Clan Boyd Society, International >>> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >>> Unsubscribe >>> https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >>> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: >>> https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >>> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >>> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb >>> community >>> >> >> >> -- >> Debbie Rea >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________ >> NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed confirm the facts in original sources. >> >> Clan Boyd Society, International >> (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. >> _______________________________________________ >> Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >> Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] >> Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >> Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >> RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community Bruce P. Shields 6405 Garfield Rd Hyde Park VT 05655 (802) 888 5165 [email protected]

Good list I am just about to include these two "naming patterns" under that sub-heading in my Chapter 1 - Background on clan Boyd - in Clan Boyd of Scotland, Volume 1. However, do people need to have more than three children listed for Scotland and 5 children listed for Ireland? Debbie (and any others that post any other naming patterns) are you also able to cite the title, author, edition, page number of these sources please so that I can also include that for people reference. Thank you Mike Boyd Brisbane, aust. -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Rea Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 10:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name Here's the naming pattern for Scotland: *The pattern generally went as follows:* - The first son was named after the father's father. - The second son after the mother's father. - The third son after the father. - The first daughter after the mother's mother. - The second daughter after the father's mother. - The third daughter after the mother. The Irish naming pattern is: *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:* - First son usually named for the father's father - Second son usually named for the mother's father - Third son usually named for the father - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother - Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother - First daughter usually named for the mother's mother - Second daughter usually named for the father's mother - Third daughter usually named for the mother - Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister - Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister. Debbie

From https://www.findmypast.co.uk/blog/help/traditional-scottish-naming-patterns?ds_kid=39700046638991796&gclid=CjwKCAiA27LvBRB0EiwAPc8XWdEL-NKJTTBwHDIygBMZNmug7ZFCi8TENFmpajbCC4YfeYeUI4qWqRoC9N4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds *The pattern generally went as follows:* - The first son was named after the father's father. - The second son after the mother's father. - The third son after the father. - The first daughter after the mother's mother. - The second daughter after the father's mother. - The third daughter after the mother. Scotland Names Personal Genealogy - FamilySearch Wiki https://www.familysearch.org › wiki › Scotland_Names_Personal <https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Scotland_Names_Personal> *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:* - First son usually named for the father's father. - Second son usually named for the mother's father. - Third son usually named for the father. - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother. More items... <https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Ireland_Names_Personal> • 7 Oct 2019 Ireland Names Personal Genealogy - FamilySearch Wiki https://www.familysearch.org › wiki › Ireland_Names_Personal <https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Ireland_Names_Personal> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 at 22:23, Mike Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > Good list > > I am just about to include these two "naming patterns" under that > sub-heading in my Chapter 1 - Background on clan Boyd - in Clan Boyd of > Scotland, Volume 1. > > However, do people need to have more than three children listed for > Scotland > and 5 children listed for Ireland? > > Debbie (and any others that post any other naming patterns) are you also > able to cite the title, author, edition, page number of these sources > please > so that I can also include that for people reference. > > Thank you > > Mike Boyd > Brisbane, aust. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Deborah Rea > Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 10:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name > > Here's the naming pattern for Scotland: > > *The pattern generally went as follows:* > > - The first son was named after the father's father. > - The second son after the mother's father. > - The third son after the father. > - The first daughter after the mother's mother. > - The second daughter after the father's mother. > - The third daughter after the mother. > > The Irish naming pattern is: > > *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the > later 19th century:* > > - First son usually named for the father's father > - Second son usually named for the mother's father > - Third son usually named for the father > - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother > - Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother > - First daughter usually named for the mother's mother > - Second daughter usually named for the father's mother > - Third daughter usually named for the mother > - Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister > - Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister. > > > Debbie > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any > other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed > confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > -- Debbie Rea

Thank you Debbie for those websites. I have added them to Chapter 1 of Clan Boyd of Scotland for people's future reference Mike Boyd -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Rea Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 8:28 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Naming Patterns From https://www.findmypast.co.uk/blog/help/traditional-scottish-naming-patterns?ds_kid=39700046638991796&gclid=CjwKCAiA27LvBRB0EiwAPc8XWdEL-NKJTTBwHDIygBMZNmug7ZFCi8TENFmpajbCC4YfeYeUI4qWqRoC9N4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds *The pattern generally went as follows:* - The first son was named after the father's father. - The second son after the mother's father. - The third son after the father. - The first daughter after the mother's mother. - The second daughter after the father's mother. - The third daughter after the mother. Scotland Names Personal Genealogy - FamilySearch Wiki https://www.familysearch.org › wiki › Scotland_Names_Personal <https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Scotland_Names_Personal> *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the later 19th century:* - First son usually named for the father's father. - Second son usually named for the mother's father. - Third son usually named for the father. - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother. More items... <https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Ireland_Names_Personal> • 7 Oct 2019 Ireland Names Personal Genealogy - FamilySearch Wiki https://www.familysearch.org › wiki › Ireland_Names_Personal <https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Ireland_Names_Personal> On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 at 22:23, Mike Boyd <[email protected]> wrote: > Good list > > I am just about to include these two "naming patterns" under that > sub-heading in my Chapter 1 - Background on clan Boyd - in Clan Boyd of > Scotland, Volume 1. > > However, do people need to have more than three children listed for > Scotland > and 5 children listed for Ireland? > > Debbie (and any others that post any other naming patterns) are you also > able to cite the title, author, edition, page number of these sources > please > so that I can also include that for people reference. > > Thank you > > Mike Boyd > Brisbane, aust. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Deborah Rea > Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 10:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name > > Here's the naming pattern for Scotland: > > *The pattern generally went as follows:* > > - The first son was named after the father's father. > - The second son after the mother's father. > - The third son after the father. > - The first daughter after the mother's mother. > - The second daughter after the father's mother. > - The third daughter after the mother. > > The Irish naming pattern is: > > *A traditional naming pattern was often used by Irish parents until the > later 19th century:* > > - First son usually named for the father's father > - Second son usually named for the mother's father > - Third son usually named for the father > - Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother > - Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother > - First daughter usually named for the mother's mother > - Second daughter usually named for the father's mother > - Third daughter usually named for the mother > - Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister > - Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister. > > > Debbie > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________ > NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any > other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed > confirm the facts in original sources. > > Clan Boyd Society, International > (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and > working. > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > -- Debbie Rea _______________________________________________ ___________________________________ NOTE: Use the data on this list as a finding tool, just as you would any other secondary source. When you find the name of an ancestor listed confirm the facts in original sources. Clan Boyd Society, International (The Clan Boyd Web site is down, I am trying to get it back up and working. _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Steve and list I have seen a name used at least three time - in both male and female names in some of the 960 Boyd Family trees that I have collected over the last 40 years. In this case, both of these John Boyds married and had their own children. The John Boyd , who is the ancestor of David Boyd of Oxfordshire, England, married in 1712 in London to an Mary Stewart and was born in Airth, Stirlingshire; While George Boyd's elder brother, John Boyd born 1690, is said to be born in Edinburgh and married in 1715 to Jane Craig, in Chester County, PA. I have just spent an hour on the website Thomas Boyd (abt.1446-1473) | WikiTree FREE Family Tree www.wikitree.com/wiki/Boyd-546 23/09/2017 · Is this your ancestor? Compare DNA and explore genealogy for Thomas Boyd born abt. 1446 Kilmarnock, Renfrewshire, Scotland died 1473 Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium including ancestors + children + 1 photos + Y-chromosome DNA + more in the free family tree community. And they list a third "John Boyd" born in 1705, who is said to be the brother of George Boyd, Sr. (1691-1731) and grandson of Rev Adam Boyd, II. I will have to do some queries on this data that may take a few days to write up. BUT IT STRONGLY LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE MIXING "SEVERAL" BOYD FAMILIES, THAT WENT TO PA. ( When I was coping those details, I made several Emails to people managing those sites, so it will be interesting to see what their sources are., etc and what more can be learnt about those sections of Clan Boyd.) Mike Boyd -----Original Message----- From: Steve Boyd Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 11:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [CLANBOYD] Re: Two children in a family with the same name Mike I must comment on point 5 below. Having done transcripts of very many cemetery registers, it is not uncommon for there to be two children in a family with the same name. If you can chase the records through you often find that the first child died before the second was born. Subsequently another child was given the previous name. Presumably in some sort of commemoration of the first child. It was a common occurance in earlier times for children to die before the age of about five. In fact I have just such an occurence in my Boyd line. James Boyd (1746-1815) and Jane Robertson (1765-1828) had a son John born in 1802, and then another son John born in March 1803 . I am yet to find any record of the first John's christening or death. I thought this information might be useful to you. Steve Boyd Melton, Victoria, Australia