----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lindsey" <galloglas@pars.net> To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] Two Thirds > Eamonn and List, > > I am not sure we have seen (yet) onlist any evidence of an "a priori" > guarantee, of the "quid pro quo" of land for arms borne in service. There are > many instances of after the fact benefits (including land), conditional or > otherwise. But no actual guarantee of land for signing up, have we? If so, I > missed it. > The cash is an interesting point, however. It should logically have a > preference, but one's choice would have to correct. Confederate money became > worthless and the Union was plagued by "greenback dollars" after the war. The > following explanation of "greenbacks" is at > http://www.friesian.com/money.htm . > So the Civil War often created times where the phrase "There are many > options. And none are good." held true in many situations. Though it may not > have been at the > forefront of most folks minds with a war raging around them, but paper money > issued by an extinguished nation is worthless. The Confederacy was extinguished > in 1865. So the men who fought this war risked not only life and limb, but bank > account also. > What a terrible irony for many of the Irish. To have been given a bounty by > the wrong army. Meaning being honestly paid, but rewarded with a handful of > disappearing smoke if given "bounties" of paper money or land grants. > Life just wasn't fair. > > Best Regards, > > Phil > As the war dragged on, the casualties mounted. Men who joined early on, & were still alive, started to desert or not re-enlist. (They had seen enough atrocities) The United States government sent recruiting men over seas to entice foreign born men to immigrate & join the service. They usually were able to entice men by offering bounty money. At first, the amount was low, but as the war dragged on, it was increased. The Homestead Act of 1862 was passed to help entice these foreign born men to come to America & join the war effort. The act declared that any citizen or intended citizen could claim 160 acres -- one quarter square mile -- of surveyed government land. Claimants must "improve" the plot with a dwelling and grow crops. After five years, if the original filer was still on the land, it was his property, free and clear. Historians claim that Lincoln passed the act to help settle the West. Which is partly true, but Lincoln was no fool, he saw that after Bull Run, the war was not going to be won without the loss of many a life. Getting the act passed was primarily an enticement for immigration into the country. I have talked to descendants of soldiers who say that their ancestor was approached, offered bounty money & had their passage paid for by the recruiters. Why kill American citizens when you could enlist Irish, Germans, British Etc. If they survived their enlistment's, then they had earned the right to settle, besides, Lincoln had to replenish his ranks & this was one way to draw in the manpower he needed. When Lincoln blockaded the American coast, he was breaking International laws & the South thought for sure that the European nations would rise & condemn the practice, but why would they. Their outlook was if our citizens are leaving to become American citizens, then they are no longer our responsibility. (They are the poor & unwanted) If Lincoln was successful in his movement, then there would be a precedent set & the European nations could use blockades as well, to justify their own ambitions of spreading their empires. If it looked as though Lincoln's plan of blockading the coast was going to fail, then the European nations could then voice their condemnation, it was a winning proposition for them. By cutting off the South's ability to trade it's major staple, cotton, Lincoln squeezed off the financial support. Thousands on the Island starved because the textile industry there crashed, due to the lack of the incoming cotton trade & the governments there allowed it because they had future plans. It helped purge their countries of overpopulated poor. Of course, the passing of the Homestead Act almost bit Lincoln in the behind, because those who were tired of the war being fought in their backyard, picked up & moved Westward. This enraged the Indian tribes & forced the Sioux uprising. Lincoln was now facing fighting the South & the Indians in the West. He solved this by enlisting the imprisoned Confederate soldiers, who were dying in prison camps. They were offered their freedom by going West & fighting Indians. They were referred to as the Galvanized Yankees. Even with the increasing bounty money, the war dragged on & once a man found out what battle was like, he just wanted to get out alive. The exchange of prisoners stopped because Lincoln knew it would drain the South of manpower. He started enlisting Blacks, because it was a good pool to draw from. Lincoln was underestimated by many, still is by some, but he was by no means stupid. Desoto Joe/The Record Man

Unfortunately, casualties = dead + wounded + missing. All the best, GJN ----- Original Message ----- From: "RUDDYsTN" <mruddy@usit.net> To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:22 AM Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] > > >If memory serves me correctly, about two thirds of the Union's casualties > >were either Irish born or of Irish descent. I dont think that the war could > >have been prosecuted without the Famine Irish. > > Irish participation in the war was high perhaps 200,000 Irish born of the > 3.5 million men involved. 500,000 died. Two thirds of the casualties would > be 330,000 Irish dead. Maybe a bit of a stretch there. With the nebulous > "Irish descent" added we then go back to the 1700s, but many of these Irish > were not starving dirt farmers but tradesmen and were accepted members of > the American community and many were Scots-Irish forced out of Ulster. > Suffice it to say the famine Irish certainly played a larger part in the > war than other ethnic groups. > > I remember reading somewhere that General Thomas Sweeny was at the docks in > New York greeting the young Irishmen and luring them into combat. There was > active recruiting in Ireland and there is somewhere in the OR > correspondence a remonstrance of our ambassador in England not to allow in > any way the paying of nationals to fight which was a breech of > international law. > Surely the more exuberant recruiters in Ireland promised, over a cruiskin > lan (full small jug), that which wasn't forthcoming upon arrival in the > American docks. > Mike > > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > To review past messages, visit the list archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L/ > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > >

Eamonn and List, I am not sure we have seen (yet) onlist any evidence of an "a priori" guarantee, of the "quid pro quo" of land for arms borne in service. There are many instances of after the fact benefits (including land), conditional or otherwise. But no actual guarantee of land for signing up, have we? If so, I missed it. The cash is an interesting point, however. It should logically have a preference, but one's choice would have to correct. Confederate money became worthless and the Union was plagued by "greenback dollars" after the war. The following explanation of "greenbacks" is at http://www.friesian.com/money.htm . So the Civil War often created times where the phrase "There are many options. And none are good." held true in many situations. Though it may not have been at the forefront of most folks minds with a war raging around them, but paper money issued by an extinguished nation is worthless. The Confederacy was extinguished in 1865. So the men who fought this war risked not only life and limb, but bank account also. What a terrible irony for many of the Irish. To have been given a bounty by the wrong army. Meaning being honestly paid, but rewarded with a handful of disappearing smoke if given "bounties" of paper money or land grants. Life just wasn't fair. Best Regards, Phil "McNulty, Eamonn" wrote: > A chairde > > Thanks for all the interest in my question regarding inducements to Irish in > the Federal side. > > I think what you are saying is it is true that land was offered, but payment > - cash - could be taken in lieu, and cash probably was generally preferred. > Is that right. > > The figure of two thirds of all casualties being Irish sounds > extraordinarily high. Can anybody give me a source for this figure, > preferably a published source. > > Eamonn. > > Medical Illustration > Princess Margaret Hospital > Perth > Western Australia 6059 > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > "Remember Ireland and Fontenoy!" > Irish War Cry > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog

O'Grady's Clear the Confederate Way! The Irish in the Army of Northern Virginia http://www.savaspublishing.com/O'Grady.html Father John B. Bannon, and St. Louis Irish Confederates http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/3802/kelly.htm Special Report: The Irish Battle at Gettysburg http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/gettysbu.html Book Review -- Irish Rebels, Confederate Tigers, by James Gannon http://civilwarstudies.org/features/confedirish.htm Richmond Enquirer May 29, 1863 THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. http://www.uic.edu/~rjensen/noirish3.htm Missouri's Celtic Heritage By Todd J. Wilkinson http://www.geocities.com/celticchief/missouricelts.html Irish in the Confederate States Army http://members.aol.com/UHG4044/IrishCSA.html Wheat's Tigers http://www.thehistorynet.com/AmericasCivilWar/articles/1999/0599_text.htm VIRGINIA's IRISH VOLUNTEERS http://www.17virginia.com/ The Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg http://aoh_richmond__1.tripod.com/The_Irish_at_Fredricksburg.html Desoto Joe/The Record Man

Hello List, With the nebulous > "Irish descent" added we then go back to the 1700s, but many of these Irish > were not starving dirt farmers but tradesmen and were accepted members of > the American community and many were Scots-Irish forced out of Ulster. The above is very true and also tends to bolster the numbers of Irish who would have fought for the South. There is an excellent book entitled " The Scotch-Irish: A Social History " by James G. Leyburn, copyright 1962, which give a bevy of figures regarding the number of Scotch-Irish who entered the (soon to become) United States during the five major waves of immigration from Ulster between 1716 and 1774. The figures vary from about 200,000 to 400,000. But, sliced, diced, baked or fried the figures would mean a huge number of them populated the US by the time of the 1790 Census because they tended to marry young and reproduce like rabbits. The 1790 Census shows slightly over 3 MM whites in the country and a good guess for the percentage of Scotch-Irish is 16%, second only to the English. Also, for several reasons, the migration path tended to be into the ports of Philadelphia and those to the south, thence inland until stopped by the Alleghenies, when they took a hard left (south) down the Great Wagon Road. Consequently, Southern Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia tended to fill first with the later immigrants and later generations moving into the Carolinas and Georgia. All in all, it gave a disproportionate share of Scotch-Irish a "Southern Exposure". By the time of the Civil War many had changed their religions while still retaining a distinct "ethnic identity". And it may be important to remember that (even as it is so today) the old phrase "Them that comes over are different from them that stays". Indeed, the Scotch-Irish left an indelible mark on the Southern character. But it is also important to remember that in the pre-Civil War United States, Irish was Irish. The distinctions of Green/Orange, Protestant/Catholic, etc. were not terribly important in America. Marksmanship and moxie, regardless of stripe, were more important in the winning of the West. Slán agat (goodbye), Phil

Yes, Mike, The American Irish Historical Society. Which William D. Griffen is a professor (or was) of History at St. John's University, N.Y. and Librarian and archivist of the American Historical Society. His was Book Printed in 1981 Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "RUDDYsTN" <mruddy@usit.net> To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] > > >Maith La ( Good Day) " The Portrait of The Irish in America by William D. > >Griffin page 155 > >The fact that some twenty thousand Irish immigrants living in the South > >served in the Confederate forces was taken as evidence of Irish courage and > >fighting spirit.............. > > Ann > Did he footnote his number? > Mike > > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > To leave the list, type a message with only the word > unsubscribe > in the text and mailto:CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com > >

>Maith La ( Good Day) " The Portrait of The Irish in America by William D. >Griffin page 155 >The fact that some twenty thousand Irish immigrants living in the South >served in the Confederate forces was taken as evidence of Irish courage and >fighting spirit.............. Ann Did he footnote his number? Mike

Brian My estimate based on the statistics that I have come across is 40,000 CSA Irish-born against 140,000 in the Union ranks. This was achieved by comparing total numbers fighting on both sides the predominance of Irish arriving in the North vs the South. It is still a SWAG. I would also be happy to see real stats. Mike

>If memory serves me correctly, about two thirds of the Union's casualties >were either Irish born or of Irish descent. I dont think that the war could >have been prosecuted without the Famine Irish. Irish participation in the war was high perhaps 200,000 Irish born of the 3.5 million men involved. 500,000 died. Two thirds of the casualties would be 330,000 Irish dead. Maybe a bit of a stretch there. With the nebulous "Irish descent" added we then go back to the 1700s, but many of these Irish were not starving dirt farmers but tradesmen and were accepted members of the American community and many were Scots-Irish forced out of Ulster. Suffice it to say the famine Irish certainly played a larger part in the war than other ethnic groups. I remember reading somewhere that General Thomas Sweeny was at the docks in New York greeting the young Irishmen and luring them into combat. There was active recruiting in Ireland and there is somewhere in the OR correspondence a remonstrance of our ambassador in England not to allow in any way the paying of nationals to fight which was a breech of international law. Surely the more exuberant recruiters in Ireland promised, over a cruiskin lan (full small jug), that which wasn't forthcoming upon arrival in the American docks. Mike

Some musings on the New York Riots..... Perhaps the usual problem is rich man's war, poor man's fight. When the body bags start coming home those who are needed as cannon fodder begin to rebel especially if the issue is not one with which the cannon fodder can relate to. In general in New York the Irish were dirt poor and took jobs for low pay and the Blacks were poorer and took jobs away from the Irish. Somewhere in the New York riots, at least at first, were also the Germans who were also poor. When rich men can buy their way out of a 50-50 chance of maiming or death and the poor man can't, the poor react. The "Irish" dislike of the Blacks might be twofold: They threatened, especially if emancipated, to take away the low paying jobs and/or lower the pay even more for everyone and the blacks were the "cause" of the war (to the uneducated Irishman) which was the cause of the draft. Another problem is that at the time New York was 25% Irish born and them making up perhaps 80% of the poor, in a riot of the poor, of course most were Irish. Race is a way of identifying someone by generalization. And if on the second day drunken Irishmen were tearing up the place instead of protesting and speeches -- we now have a riot. The most to be gained now was now plunder and wanton vandalism before the troops arrived. By the second day the more decent elements pulled out of the melee. When one wants to ascribe certain idealistic goals to the New York riots, as if there was a purpose and a mind in control of the boiling over resentment against the harsh conditions of New York, one should remember the man at a 2nd story window during the French Revolution looking down on the people going by in screaming destruction, saying, "There goes the mob. I must join them. I'm their leader." Mike

After the Civil War, some newly discharged Irish soldiers traveled to Ireland to train potential rebels. Others join the Fenian Brotherhood and invaded Canada twice. The US government allowed the Fenians to operate freely but refused to stop the invasion because it did not want to provole the Irish-American voters. Besides, the British had helped the Confederacy and had not yet made amends. Ellen RUDDYsTN wrote: > >> If memory serves me correctly, about two thirds of the Union's >> casualties >> were either Irish born or of Irish descent. I dont think that the war >> could >> have been prosecuted without the Famine Irish. > > > Irish participation in the war was high perhaps 200,000 Irish born of > the 3.5 million men involved. 500,000 died. Two thirds of the > casualties would be 330,000 Irish dead. Maybe a bit of a stretch > there. With the nebulous "Irish descent" added we then go back to the > 1700s, but many of these Irish were not starving dirt farmers but > tradesmen and were accepted members of the American community and many > were Scots-Irish forced out of Ulster. Suffice it to say the famine > Irish certainly played a larger part in the war than other ethnic groups. > > I remember reading somewhere that General Thomas Sweeny was at the > docks in New York greeting the young Irishmen and luring them into > combat. There was active recruiting in Ireland and there is somewhere > in the OR correspondence a remonstrance of our ambassador in England > not to allow in any way the paying of nationals to fight which was a > breech of international law. > Surely the more exuberant recruiters in Ireland promised, over a > cruiskin lan (full small jug), that which wasn't forthcoming upon > arrival in the American docks. > Mike > > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > To review past messages, visit the list archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L/ > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > >

Hi All, The chorus of the Irish National Anthem. Another reference to an bhearna bhaoil Curfa/: Sinne Firnna Fáil A tá fé gheall ag Éirinn, buion dár slua Thar toinn do ráinig chugainn, Fé mhóid bheith saor. Sean tír ár sinsir feasta Ní fhagfar fé'n tiorán ná fé'n tráil Anocht a the/am sa bhearna bhaoil, Le gean ar Ghaeil chun ba/is no/ saoil Le guna screach fe/ la/mhach na bpile/ar Seo libh canai/dh Amhra/n na bhFiann. English translation: Chorus: Soldiers are we whose lives are pledged to Ireland; Some have comefrom a land beyond the wave. Sworn to be free, No more our ancient sire land Shall shelter the despot or the slave. Tonight we man the gap of danger In Erin's cause, come woe or weal 'Mid cannons' roar and rifles peal, We'll chant a soldier's song. Regards, T.

Maith La ( Good Day) " The Portrait of The Irish in America by William D. Griffin page 155 The fact that some twenty thousand Irish immigrants living in the South served in the Confederate forces was taken as evidence of Irish courage and fighting spirit.............. This the best answer I can find, Ann From: "Brian Robertson" <brianr@cals.lib.ar.us> To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:48 PM Subject: RE: [Civil-War-Irish] > I too would be interested in seeing the number of Irish who served in the > Confederate Army. So if anyone has it please post to the list. Irish > Confederates seem to be a forgotten topic. In _The Life of Johnny Reb_ Bell > Wiley says the Irish were the largest group of foreigners serving in the > Confederate Army. Unfortunately, there are no statistics given. Wiley also > mentions Company I of the 8th Alabama Regiment. The company was known as > the "Emerald Guards" and 104 of the total 109 men listed Ireland as their > birthplace. The company went off to war in a dark green uniform. One side > of their banner had the Confederate colors with Washington in the center, > and on the other a harp enwreathed with shamrock and flashing the > inscription "Erin-go-Bragh." > Finally, one can't discuss Irish Confederates without mentioning Major > General Patrick Cleburne (The Stonewall Jackson of the West). > > Regards, > Brian > > > Brian K. Robertson > Manuscripts Coordinator > Butler Center for Arkansas Studies > Central Arkansas Library System > (501)918-3056 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ann Keegan [mailto:akeegan@c3net.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:28 PM > To: CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] > > > Yes, you are right not only the Civil War, Also in the American Revloution. > > There were144,221 men of Irish birth in the Union Army. I don't know the > number of Irish that served in > Confederate Army, but I bet it was equal or more.( I would like to know > that number, if anyone has it) > Instituted by Abraham Lincoln, the Medal Honor was first pressented in 1861. > 202 Irish-born recipents consituted the largest group of immigrants to > receive this award. > I am going to stop here because I could go on and on about the Irish.....Ann > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerard J. Nolan" <surveyor@rivnet.net> > To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] > > > > If memory serves me correctly, about two thirds of the Union's casualties > > were either Irish born or of Irish descent. I dont think that the war > could > > have been prosecuted without the Famine Irish. > > It doesn't matter whether they accepted a bounty of any kind; it does > matter > > that they preserved the Union. > > GJN > > > > > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > > To review past messages, visit the list archives at > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L/ > > > > ============================== > > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 > > > > > > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > To leave the list, type a message with only the word > unsubscribe > in the text and mailto:CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com > > > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > To leave the list, type a message with only the word > unsubscribe > in the text and mailto:CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog > >

I too would be interested in seeing the number of Irish who served in the Confederate Army. So if anyone has it please post to the list. Irish Confederates seem to be a forgotten topic. In _The Life of Johnny Reb_ Bell Wiley says the Irish were the largest group of foreigners serving in the Confederate Army. Unfortunately, there are no statistics given. Wiley also mentions Company I of the 8th Alabama Regiment. The company was known as the "Emerald Guards" and 104 of the total 109 men listed Ireland as their birthplace. The company went off to war in a dark green uniform. One side of their banner had the Confederate colors with Washington in the center, and on the other a harp enwreathed with shamrock and flashing the inscription "Erin-go-Bragh." Finally, one can't discuss Irish Confederates without mentioning Major General Patrick Cleburne (The Stonewall Jackson of the West). Regards, Brian Brian K. Robertson Manuscripts Coordinator Butler Center for Arkansas Studies Central Arkansas Library System (501)918-3056 -----Original Message----- From: Ann Keegan [mailto:akeegan@c3net.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:28 PM To: CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] Yes, you are right not only the Civil War, Also in the American Revloution. There were144,221 men of Irish birth in the Union Army. I don't know the number of Irish that served in Confederate Army, but I bet it was equal or more.( I would like to know that number, if anyone has it) Instituted by Abraham Lincoln, the Medal Honor was first pressented in 1861. 202 Irish-born recipents consituted the largest group of immigrants to receive this award. I am going to stop here because I could go on and on about the Irish.....Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerard J. Nolan" <surveyor@rivnet.net> To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] > If memory serves me correctly, about two thirds of the Union's casualties > were either Irish born or of Irish descent. I dont think that the war could > have been prosecuted without the Famine Irish. > It doesn't matter whether they accepted a bounty of any kind; it does matter > that they preserved the Union. > GJN > > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > To review past messages, visit the list archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L/ > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== To leave the list, type a message with only the word unsubscribe in the text and mailto:CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L-request@rootsweb.com ============================== Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com

If memory serves me correctly, about two thirds of the Union's casualties were either Irish born or of Irish descent. I dont think that the war could have been prosecuted without the Famine Irish. It doesn't matter whether they accepted a bounty of any kind; it does matter that they preserved the Union. GJN

Yes, you are right not only the Civil War, Also in the American Revloution. There were144,221 men of Irish birth in the Union Army. I don't know the number of Irish that served in Confederate Army, but I bet it was equal or more.( I would like to know that number, if anyone has it) Instituted by Abraham Lincoln, the Medal Honor was first pressented in 1861. 202 Irish-born recipents consituted the largest group of immigrants to receive this award. I am going to stop here because I could go on and on about the Irish.....Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerard J. Nolan" <surveyor@rivnet.net> To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] > If memory serves me correctly, about two thirds of the Union's casualties > were either Irish born or of Irish descent. I dont think that the war could > have been prosecuted without the Famine Irish. > It doesn't matter whether they accepted a bounty of any kind; it does matter > that they preserved the Union. > GJN > > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > To review past messages, visit the list archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L/ > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 > >

Dear List, Oops! Was trying to send a long overdue email to Dennis (and did so) while failing to see that it went to the list, also. Sorry for any befuddlement. I'll unwire my brain to gob to typing finger connection and toddle of to bed for the day. Maigh Oiche (Good Night), Phil

If History is correct, about 2% of the Union Army was conscripted. The balance were volunteers. Gerard J. Nolan Lottsburg, VA

Hi Dennis, Forget to get back and thank you for checking this out. Just stumbled upon this email in my "sent" file. But I am much obliged. Eamonn McNulty and I then privately exchanged some information peculiar to Missouri and he also found it the quote. As my youngest son is named Eamonn, also, that led to a few more emails during which time I realized what had made the phrase so familiar and thought I would pass it along. It is that familiar (Anglicized) phrase from "Kelly, The Boy From Killane". Pull it up on Google with the words "grim gap of Death" and you will get several sites with the lyrics. But then, you probably already know them by heart. BTW, the old Civil-War-Irish list is sure lighting up with activity. It is good to see! Slan, Phil Lindsey "Dennis J. Francis" wrote: > Philip Lindsey wrote: > > > > Hello List, > > Well, it's sure that there could be more Gaelic banter if there were > > Globalized fadas. > ------------------- > Yeah. I noticed that my web-based mail service (which I use for the > digest) messed up the fada and sent back gobbledygook. > > For anyone who got the same, it should read "Fag an Bealach", with an > accent mark above the "a" in "Fag". Think I'll use the Gaelic-L > convention of using "/" to indicate long vowels. > ---------------------- > > ... a very old and famous phrase from even before the time of > > Charles II (who lost Ireland to William of Orange) was translated as > > "the grim gap of Death". I cannot find my references to it, but perhaps > > someone on the list could help. > > The first word was (I am certain of this part) either " bearnas" or > > "bearnach" (I could see how either might translate) and the second word > > seeming to be "bhoghail". But the second word is something I can only > > see in my minds eyes and that from many too many years ago. > ---------------------- > Checked O/ Do/naill's dictionary: "An bhearna bhaoil" = "the gap of > danger" or "the breach of battle". > > Dennis > > ==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > To review past messages, visit the list archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L/ > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

Tha mi sinn (I am happy) In another book " The Ethnic Almanac" the same story is told but under the chapter of Pride, Prejudice and Stereotypes. but also added That the average Irishman had no desire to fight in the Black Man"s War and that the Irish burned two provest marshal's offices. When you really read what is being said it is reeks with discrimination against both Blacks an Irish. I am sure the Irish were not the only ones angry over the Conscription Act of 1863. Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lindsey" <galloglas@pars.net> To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] > Cadé mar atat tú, Ann? (How are you?), > > This is a story that needs looking into. Though the basic facts are correct, > the "spin" that was put on it at the time was thoroughly anti-Irish. The > "Know-Nothings" (the anti-Immmigrant forces) had long been propagandizing > against the immigrant, non-Norman Irish. > When the riots occurred, the papers quickly put out damage reports and > indicated that the Irish had turned their wrath on the Negroes. When one thinks > about it, there is little logic in the target. The Irish and the Blacks were > both greatly discriminated against (remember "No Irish Need Apply" hung on many > doors). > Ken Burns documentary investigated this, but all of the details elude me at > the moment. Perhaps someone on the list can give us more details. However, it > seems that the worry was with the huge numbers of Irish who were very a very > potent and cohesive political force (think Tammany Hall bosses and prior) and > their reaction to being asked to commit the Supreme sacrifice for a land that > had not yet given them much. > My own impression was that the Irish did riot, but not specifically against > blacks as such, but more as "Collateral Damage" because they were close to where > the Irish were. And the solution was the "spin". Pit the Irish against the > blacks (in the papers) and, consequently, against the Emancipation Proclamation > and Lincoln, and the Irish would appear "un-American" and "un-Patriotic" (and > easy pickings for the Know Nothings after the war). Consequently, the ward > healers and bosses got the immigrant Irish behind the war effort and won > legitimacy for the Irish after the war. > At any rate, it is a murky chapter of American history and would be a good > subject to hear on. My own Grandda was in the Five Corners area of New York at > the time but was dead many years before I was born. He sure would have had the > tale and were he here I'd ask for his input. > Well, I'll ask anyway. Maybe he'll send it some other fashion (how 'bout it > Grandda Dan?<grin>) > > Best Regards, > > Phil Lindsey > > Ann Keegan wrote: > > > Here is an interesting story: > > > > In 1863, The Conscription Act, which allowed anyone to evade military sevice > > provided that he pay $300.00 or enlist a substitute for three years of > > service, that set off four days of rioting in New York. The working-class > > Irish, to whom $300.00 was almost a year's wages, were outraged: they took > > out their anger on the Negroes, whom they believed were responsible for the > > war. Hundreds blacks and whites were killed. The Color > > Orphan Asylum was burned, and property demage amounted to several million > > dollar. (That's uninflated > > 1863 dollars) > > Source: "The Ethnic Almanac" Author Stephanie Bernardo page 20 > > > > Ann > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don Bishop" <donbi@concentric.net> > > To: <CIVIL-WAR-IRISH-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 6:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [Civil-War-Irish] > > > > > How interesting. I look forward to hearing from you. > > > > > > My great grandfather was a 17 year old from County Clare, Ireland and I > > rather imagine > > > $300 seemed much like the pot 'o gold at the end of the rainbow to him. > > > > > > Patricia > > > > > > Philip Lindsey wrote: > > > > > > > Patricia and List, > > > > > > > > Oddly, Thomas Owens of Saline County was an ancestor of mine, also. > > And if the > > > > substitute was your Carey ancestor of 71st EMM, it is even more > > interesting for my > > > > GGGrandfather Willis Pinkney Lindsey left Boone County and his next door > > neighbor > > > > and Confederate brother to join the Union forces in Saline county and > > spent time > > > > as a Second Corporal in the 71st EMM). So, it looks like we have a > > double > > > > connection (Patricia, I'll write you directly after finishing this > > email). > > > > Ellen made an excellent point about the installments which sheds > > light on one > > > > of the "variations on a theme" regarding bounties in Missouri. Boone > > County, > > > > Missouri was an excellent example. > > > > The Boone County Roots Web site has a listing of (I think) over one > > hundred > > > > "Federal" draftees for 1864 and the results thereof. Already being > > familiar with > > > > many of the individuals and names, I knew that most of these men were > > pro-Southern > > > > if not actively fighting for the South. Yet, faced with a Federal draft > > and having > > > > family, farms and future immovably in Boone County, what did these men > > do? Many > > > > furnished "substitutes". Some of these substitutes were induced by cash > > bounties > > > > by the government (if not in Boone County, then certainly others) but > > what option > > > > was there for the draftees who could not find obliging substitutes at > > $300? > > > > I think the answer was informal competitive bargaining. I.E., " If > > $300 is not > > > > enough, how about I throw in $200 of my own?" or " How's about $300 , > > and you keep > > > > the horse and saddle? " > > > > Among the draftees of Boone County were some men who had been slaves > > until the > > > > Emancipation Proclamation (of 1/1/1863). It is also a fair guess that > > after 1862 > > > > there were many newly free men ( dispossessed both by Border Warfare and > > the > > > > changing tides of war in Missouri) who were very happy to substitute, > > bounty or > > > > no. > > > > There is great irony in thinking about how many Missourians, who > > would have > > > > (or did) fight for the South, could have been forced into a position of > > having to > > > > provide a new Union draftee substitute soldier as a price for > > maintaining his > > > > Southern loyalties. > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > Phil Lindsey > > > > > > > > Don Bishop wrote: > > > > > > > > > My great grandfather was a substitute for a Thomas Owens in Saline > > County, MO. > > > > > He was paid the $300 bounty. However, it was paid in installments. I > > would > > > > > suppose to be certain he stayed for his full enlistment. > > > > > > > > > > Patricia > > > > > > > > > > Ellen Naliboff wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The enlistment bonus us $300 in lieu of land. Prior to the Civil War > > the > > > > > > government had no money but granted Land Warrants to veterans. > > > > > > The CW was the first in which a draft was used to fill the ranks. > > > > > > However, a young man could pay $300 and someone else would serve in > > his > > > > > > stead. > > > > > > Ellen > > > > > > > > > > > > LLWHALE@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Eamonn: It was common to sign up for a $100.00 bounty. My Irish > > relative, > > > > > > >age 18, did this and died from sickness before his year was up. > > LInda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CIVIL-WAR-IRISH Mailing List ==== > > > > > > >"Faugh a Ballaugh!" (A period rendering of Fag an Bealach (Clear > > the > > > > > > >Way!)) 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