In a message dated 8/30/2002 8:25:43 AM Central Daylight Time, greybird7@pisp.net writes: > > Slavery among the Indians BY Indians was not the same as slavery by > europeans...before europeans came to our country, Indians would capture > women and/or children from other Tribes and would make them part of their > Tribe...they would become family.. > The year 1521 was a watershed year in the history of the world. In 1521, Cortez and the Spanish conquered the Aztecs and the Spanish conquered the "Indians" of the Phillipines. I don't know much about the history of the Spanish conquest of the Phllipines except that Gregory XIV, in 1591, issued a very strong condemnation of any Christian who made slaves of the "Indians" of the Phillipines and based his condemnation on the previous condemnations by Paul III against making slaves of the Indians of the New World and Eugenio IV against making slaves of the Canary Islanders. I know a little more about the Spanish Conquest of the Aztecs of Mexico simply because it is closer to home and not because I've studied it at very great length. Cortez could not have accomplished what he did with the limited number of men he had had it not been for the help of many Indians from tribes in Mexico that had been subjugated by the Aztecs. These subjegated tribes so despised their Aztec "family" in which they were slaves of the Aztecs that they gladly helped Cortez overthrow the Aztec rulers under the Emperor Montezuma II who became emperor in 1503. If slavery amongst Indians was like a "family" then there was nothing for the subjegated tribes of the Aztec Empire to gain by helping Cortez overthrow the Aztecs especially when even one of Cortez' own ship captains had mutinied in the midst of the fight against the Aztecs and Cortez had to subdue his own people before continuing the fight. Clearly slavery amongst Indians was not as benign as you are making it out to be at the time of Columbus' arrival and after his arrival. The Creeks, apparently, who had conflicts with the Choctaw, often sold them into slavery to Europeans after they captured them in battle or in raids. And the story of Shumaka in which her entire tribe was wiped out by the Choctaws and Chickasaws and she and others were captured and made members of the tribes who captured them in the 1700's tells a much darker side to slavery amongst Indians than you are admitting to. John Craven New Orleans

So all those christians who were in the slaving business were condemned...What was their punishment? Doesn't seem to have stopped them from continuing... You can defend the europeans all you want but it doesn't change the fact that they treated those who were not like themselves in color and religion as tho they were not human...Not so among the Indians who captured each other..They never regarded the captives as animals.. B. ----- Original Message ----- From: <JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:22 AM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Harper - Which SixTown location & other questions > In a message dated 8/30/2002 8:25:43 AM Central Daylight Time, > greybird7@pisp.net writes: > > > > > > Slavery among the Indians BY Indians was not the same as slavery by > > europeans...before europeans came to our country, Indians would capture > > women and/or children from other Tribes and would make them part of their > > Tribe...they would become family.. > > > > The year 1521 was a watershed year in the history of the world. In 1521, > Cortez and the Spanish conquered the Aztecs and the Spanish conquered the > "Indians" of the Phillipines. > I don't know much about the history of the Spanish conquest of the > Phllipines except that Gregory XIV, in 1591, issued a very strong > condemnation of any Christian who made slaves of the "Indians" of the > Phillipines and based his condemnation on the previous condemnations by Paul > III against making slaves of the Indians of the New World and Eugenio IV > against making slaves of the Canary Islanders. > I know a little more about the Spanish Conquest of the Aztecs of > Mexico simply because it is closer to home and not because I've studied it at > very great length. > Cortez could not have accomplished what he did with the limited number > of men he had had it not been for the help of many Indians from tribes in > Mexico that had been subjugated by the Aztecs. These subjegated tribes so > despised their Aztec "family" in which they were slaves of the Aztecs that > they gladly helped Cortez overthrow the Aztec rulers under the Emperor > Montezuma II who became emperor in 1503. > If slavery amongst Indians was like a "family" then there was nothing > for the subjegated tribes of the Aztec Empire to gain by helping Cortez > overthrow the Aztecs especially when even one of Cortez' own ship captains > had mutinied in the midst of the fight against the Aztecs and Cortez had to > subdue his own people before continuing the fight. > Clearly slavery amongst Indians was not as benign as you are making it > out to be at the time of Columbus' arrival and after his arrival. > The Creeks, apparently, who had conflicts with the Choctaw, often sold > them into slavery to Europeans after they captured them in battle or in raids. > And the story of Shumaka in which her entire tribe was wiped out by > the Choctaws and Chickasaws and she and others were captured and made members > of the tribes who captured them in the 1700's tells a much darker side to > slavery amongst Indians than you are admitting to. > > John Craven > New Orleans > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Try Rusty Lang's website at http://www.choctaw-web.com for censuses, genealogy lessons, articles, etc. > >

Wow!!! Talk about generalization ....Slavery is a wretched practice, no matter WHO is/was responsible. We really need to accept that not all of our forefathers were kind, compassionate souls, just as all Europeans were not evil people... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Ellison" <greybird7@pisp.net> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:16 AM Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] christian slavers > So all those christians who were in the slaving business were > condemned...What was their punishment? Doesn't seem to have stopped them > from continuing... > You can defend the europeans all you want but it doesn't change the fact > that they treated those who were not like themselves in color and religion > as tho they were not human...Not so among the Indians who captured each > other..They never regarded the captives as animals.. > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com> > To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:22 AM > Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Harper - Which SixTown location & other questions > > > > In a message dated 8/30/2002 8:25:43 AM Central Daylight Time, > > greybird7@pisp.net writes: > > > > > > > > > > Slavery among the Indians BY Indians was not the same as slavery by > > > europeans...before europeans came to our country, Indians would capture > > > women and/or children from other Tribes and would make them part of > their > > > Tribe...they would become family.. > > > > > > > The year 1521 was a watershed year in the history of the world. In 1521, > > Cortez and the Spanish conquered the Aztecs and the Spanish conquered the > > "Indians" of the Phillipines. > > I don't know much about the history of the Spanish conquest of the > > Phllipines except that Gregory XIV, in 1591, issued a very strong > > condemnation of any Christian who made slaves of the "Indians" of the > > Phillipines and based his condemnation on the previous condemnations by > Paul > > III against making slaves of the Indians of the New World and Eugenio IV > > against making slaves of the Canary Islanders. > > I know a little more about the Spanish Conquest of the Aztecs of > > Mexico simply because it is closer to home and not because I've studied it > at > > very great length. > > Cortez could not have accomplished what he did with the limited > number > > of men he had had it not been for the help of many Indians from tribes in > > Mexico that had been subjugated by the Aztecs. These subjegated tribes so > > despised their Aztec "family" in which they were slaves of the Aztecs that > > they gladly helped Cortez overthrow the Aztec rulers under the Emperor > > Montezuma II who became emperor in 1503. > > If slavery amongst Indians was like a "family" then there was > nothing > > for the subjegated tribes of the Aztec Empire to gain by helping Cortez > > overthrow the Aztecs especially when even one of Cortez' own ship captains > > had mutinied in the midst of the fight against the Aztecs and Cortez had > to > > subdue his own people before continuing the fight. > > Clearly slavery amongst Indians was not as benign as you are making > it > > out to be at the time of Columbus' arrival and after his arrival. > > The Creeks, apparently, who had conflicts with the Choctaw, often > sold > > them into slavery to Europeans after they captured them in battle or in > raids. > > And the story of Shumaka in which her entire tribe was wiped out by > > the Choctaws and Chickasaws and she and others were captured and made > members > > of the tribes who captured them in the 1700's tells a much darker side to > > slavery amongst Indians than you are admitting to. > > > > John Craven > > New Orleans > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Try Rusty Lang's website at > http://www.choctaw-web.com for censuses, genealogy lessons, articles, etc. > > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Got a PROBLEM?? Got a GRIPE?? Just wanna' WHINE?? Don't post it to the list. Write to me, the listowner, at CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-admin@rootsweb.com > >