Yakoke, I'm LOL. Is that a nice way of saying that I seem a little antagonistic? or some kind of know-it-all? George Ann >From: Richard Wilson <imafo2002@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:47:43 -0700 (PDT) > > Halito All: > > Yes George Ann you are correct. However, by 1775 >Kentucky is being settled by Euro-Americans and >perhaps some Choctaws decided to settle as well >because the areas in Mississippi and Louisiana were >hunted out. We do know there were Choctaw settlers in >the area of Boonesborough, I'm just looking for an >explanation. > I really enjoy discussing these things with you, >your ideas are very challenging and you have obviously >been studying this for a while. I love the way you >just challenge people and keep pushing the discussion >foreward. > > Imafo > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
This is what my Ikbi wrote. "It was my understanding that hopia meant "mounder" or "builder of mounds." The iksa anumoli aided in the mounding, but the mounders were a seperate "office" or "post" to the best o my knowledge." George Ann >From: Richard Wilson <imafo2002@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:26:28 -0700 (PDT) > > Halito All: > > George Ann, anyone you can refer this to who has >the knowledge and can be helpful, would be great. They >were born in the Choctaw Nation. I do know that John >Harper was born in Mississippi and he and sister >Elizabeth Harper both owned land in the Choctaw Nation >in both Mississippi and Louisiana. The patents >indicated that the land was associated with treaties, >such as the "Treaty of Doaks' Stand" and in one case >the "War of 1812". > There are many references to their being full >blooded Choctaw. They came to Kentucky around 1775 and >John Harper was involved in the founding of >Boonesborough. I have discovered that there were a >number of Choctaws in the Boonesborough area as a >number of them died along with the settlers at the >"Battle of the Blue Licks". > One explanation that I had >for this was I think I remember from Choctaw history, >that around this period of time the Choctaw area was >becoming hunted out and the hunters had to go further >and further away from the villages to find game. >Perhaps they heard about Kentucky being full of game, >as it was at that time, and that is why they went to >Kentucky. > Also, there is evidence that John and Mary Ann >Harper continued to practice some of the traditional >customs, such as having all of the property in Mary >Ann's name. The only couple in Fayette County to have >property in the wife's name. > It appears that they continued to be called by >both names throughout their lives. As a matter of >fact, there was some Dawes testimony that among Indian >friends their names were completely Choctaw. In other >words, they didn't use the John or the Mary Ann. > > Imafo > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Got a PROBLEM?? Got a GRIPE?? Just wanna' WHINE?? Don't post it to the >list. Write to me, the listowner, at CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-admin@rootsweb.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/4gC.2ACE/459.2.1.1 Message Board Post: Do you have a Ira Goins/Going (Crowder) in your line?? My GGGrandfather was Elijah B Crowder but under civil war record states he had another name, his brothers were Elsberry,Bailey,John,Levi,Willam,Martin. Sisters Ruth,Mary,Martha. Ira's wife was Elizabeth Bailey. My elijah wife was emily dwees. Elsberry had a son Eli W who is on the roll I just cannot figure which Eli is my gggrandfather,I know he had two sons Adolphus and Mannie. Any help would be appreicated. thank you Myia Lightinldy@aol.com
Hello Sean, thanks for the very informative email you sent me on grammar. I am not as confused as I was. I've reprinted your email below so that others who may have missed it will be able to read it in its entirety since a lot of us on the list are having some trouble with names and their meanings, ect. Would you be able to put on the list a listing of all the "articles" that the Choctaw used in their sentences? Also, is the written language of the Choctaws a fairly recent development, meaning within the last couple of hundred years or so? Was there any one Choctaw considered most responsible for creating the Choctaw language? John Craven New Orleans In a message dated 7/24/2002 11:21:59 PM Central Daylight Time, seanps@george.net writes: > Yes John, > > The same word could be used at the beginning of a sentence, as a noun, or > at the end of a sentence, as a verb. Though I don't know what "hopiah" > means myself, if it does mean "leader," it could also be used in verb form > meaning "to lead." > > Frequently in Choctaw the distinction between verb form (e.g., "to lead") > and noun form (e.g., "leader") is made my adding the prefix "na" or "nan" > (depending on whether the root word starts with a noun or a consonant). For > example, I was taught that the word for "to learn" is "ikhvna" and the word > for "student" (i.e., a learner) is "nanikhvna." I have however, also seen > the word "ikhvna" used to mean "student" without the "nan-" prefix. Because > of the way Choctaw sentences are constructed, if a word shows up in a > certain place in the sentence, you know it has to be a noun (or verb, or > whatever, depending on its > position). English works the same way. > > In English, we usually add "-er" to a verb in order to make it a noun > (e.g., lead...leader), but sometimes not. For example, a man can be a > father or he can father a child (no change in word form). Coincidentally, > you can even do that with the word "lead," since someone can be the "lead" > in a given situation (most often used in reference to acting, but > exclusively). As with Choctaw, where the word occurs in the sentence gives > you the context to determine whether it is a noun, verb, etc. ("He will > lead us." as opposed to "He is the lead.") > > As for articles, in English those would be words like "the," "a," "an," > "this," "that," and number words, which invariably come at the beginning of > a noun phrase. A "noun phrase" would be something like, "that big house," > where we have an article ("that") followed by an adjective ("big"), both of > which describe the noun ("house"). Which house? That big one. > Interestingly (as George Ann pointed out), in Choctaw, noun phrases are > constructed in EXACTLY the opposite order of how they would be constructed > in English, i.e., noun-adjective-article. So in Choctaw, "that big house" > would be correctly translated as "chukka chito > yvmma" but, if you break it apart literally, "chukka" means "house" (the > noun), "chito" means "big" (the adjective), and "yvmma" means "that one" > (the article). > > The Choctaw language however, doesn't use articles as much as English. > They/we really only use "yvmma" ("that"), "ilvppa" ("this"), and number > words, and basically have no equivalents for "a," "an," and "the." Instead > of saying "the rabbit hopped" or "a rabbit hopped," they/we just say > "rabbit hopped," and if you aren't sure which rabbit someone is talking > about, they say "that white one over there." > > OK, enough grammar-babble from me for now. I am curious about the "leader" > vs. "bone-picker" dilemma over "hopiah," though. It could very well be a > case of dual meaning depending on context but I would love to know for sure. > > Hachi-pisa-l'achike. > > --Sean > > > > In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:14:42 AM Central Daylight Time, > > wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > Choctaw is a noun-adjective-article language. > > > That would be the significance of the location of word order. Also, the > > > verb always comes at the end of the sentence. > > > > > > George Ann > > > > > > > > > > Well, George Ann, > > > > if I understand what you are saying correctly, if Hopia occurs at > the > > beginning of a name then it designates what that person was, such as if > Hopia > > occurred at the beginning it means either "leader" or "bone picker" but > if it > > occurs at the end it designates what a person did or how the person did > what > > he did? I'm still a bit confused because I take article and noun to mean > the > > same thing, that is that neither is a verb. > > > > Or are you saying that if Hopia occurs at the end then it is the > verb > > form of "leader" of "bone picker" and means "leads" or "picks bones"? > > > > Or am I just confused right now. > > > > John Craven > > New Orleans > >
In a message dated 7/24/2002 10:23:04 AM Central Daylight Time, wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > The area called Kentucky was originally hunting grounds only, hunted by many > SE Indian people. I think the Chickasaw claimed some portion of it. > > George Ann > > George Ann, according to the map sketches I've seen in the book "Dancing Rabbit" by Broox Sledge (1986), the Chickasaw's land was to the north of the Choctaw Nation and covered the northern part of Mississippi and extended into Tennessee. Did it extend farther then that into Kentucky? Also, I have read in some article somewhere that the Choctaw people originally came from the MidWest and moved south to get away from a lot of tribal warfare. If that is so, then could it be possible that their original hunting grounds may have been much closer to Kentucky and that possibly they never ever really gave them up when they moved south into Mississippi, that is if this story is correct about them originally coming from farther north? John Craven New Orleans
In a message dated 7/23/2002 11:12:36 PM Central Daylight Time, Pattyg74056@cs.com writes: > I do not understand. I was told that "Tubbee" was a title of respect, and > not a name. > Hello Pattyg74056, from what others on the list have been saying it seems that "Tubbee" was indeed a title of respect, and meant someone who killed an enemy in battle, and it also became a part of the names of many Choctaws, I think following the removal to Oklahoma, but perhaps beginning before the removal, exactly because it was a title of respect. That is the Choctaws with Tubbee in their name incorporated it into their name from the title. I guess in English an equivalent thing would be the name "Smith" which was originally the title of someone who was a smith, such as a blacksmith, but which over the years moved from being a title to being a name as well. Have I confused you enough? John Craven New Orleans
In a message dated 7/23/2002 5:27:08 PM Central Daylight Time, imafo2002@yahoo.com writes: > > It appears that they continued to be called by > both names throughout their lives. As a matter of > fact, there was some Dawes testimony that among Indian > friends their names were completely Choctaw. In other > words, they didn't use the John or the Mary Ann. > > Imafo > Hello Imafo, if I remember correctly from one of George Ann's emails, Choctaw's actually came to have three names in many instances, their English (or French or Spanish) name, the Choctaw name which others called them and the Choctaw name which they gave themselves but which only they knew. Also I was wondering, since all of the Treaties dealing with the Choctaws covered land in Mississippi, wouldn't any land that your ancestors had in Louisiana be still in your family's possession or maybe I should say your ancestors would still have retained that land even if they relocated to Oklahoma since I don't think any of the treaties covered land in Louisiana? John Craven New Orleans
In a message dated 7/23/2002 10:16:29 AM Central Daylight Time, wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:21:09 AM Central Daylight Time, > >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > After a prescribed length of mourning (prescribed by > > > the medicince man or Ikbi), the bones were taken down and scraped clean > >by > > > the bone picker who had especially long nails for this purpose. The > >cleaned > > > bones were then bundled and placed in a common bone house George Ann, I guess this question will be repugnant to some on the list but I think it needs to be asked. What did the bone pickers do with the "pickings?" John Craven New Orleans
Yes John, The same word could be used at the beginning of a sentence, as a noun, or at the end of a sentence, as a verb. Though I don't know what "hopiah" means myself, if it does mean "leader," it could also be used in verb form meaning "to lead." Frequently in Choctaw the distinction between verb form (e.g., "to lead") and noun form (e.g., "leader") is made my adding the prefix "na" or "nan" (depending on whether the root word starts with a noun or a consonant). For example, I was taught that the word for "to learn" is "ikhvna" and the word for "student" (i.e., a learner) is "nanikhvna." I have however, also seen the word "ikhvna" used to mean "student" without the "nan-" prefix. Because of the way Choctaw sentences are constructed, if a word shows up in a certain place in the sentence, you know it has to be a noun (or verb, or whatever, depending on its position). English works the same way. In English, we usually add "-er" to a verb in order to make it a noun (e.g., lead...leader), but sometimes not. For example, a man can be a father or he can father a child (no change in word form). Coincidentally, you can even do that with the word "lead," since someone can be the "lead" in a given situation (most often used in reference to acting, but exclusively). As with Choctaw, where the word occurs in the sentence gives you the context to determine whether it is a noun, verb, etc. ("He will lead us." as opposed to "He is the lead.") As for articles, in English those would be words like "the," "a," "an," "this," "that," and number words, which invariably come at the beginning of a noun phrase. A "noun phrase" would be something like, "that big house," where we have an article ("that") followed by an adjective ("big"), both of which describe the noun ("house"). Which house? That big one. Interestingly (as George Ann pointed out), in Choctaw, noun phrases are constructed in EXACTLY the opposite order of how they would be constructed in English, i.e., noun-adjective-article. So in Choctaw, "that big house" would be correctly translated as "chukka chito yvmma" but, if you break it apart literally, "chukka" means "house" (the noun), "chito" means "big" (the adjective), and "yvmma" means "that one" (the article). The Choctaw language however, doesn't use articles as much as English. They/we really only use "yvmma" ("that"), "ilvppa" ("this"), and number words, and basically have no equivalents for "a," "an," and "the." Instead of saying "the rabbit hopped" or "a rabbit hopped," they/we just say "rabbit hopped," and if you aren't sure which rabbit someone is talking about, they say "that white one over there." OK, enough grammar-babble from me for now. I am curious about the "leader" vs. "bone-picker" dilemma over "hopiah," though. It could very well be a case of dual meaning depending on context but I would love to know for sure. Hachi-pisa-l'achike. --Sean > In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:14:42 AM Central Daylight Time, > wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > Choctaw is a noun-adjective-article language. > > That would be the significance of the location of word order. Also, the > > verb always comes at the end of the sentence. > > > > George Ann > > > > > > Well, George Ann, > > if I understand what you are saying correctly, if Hopia occurs at the > beginning of a name then it designates what that person was, such as if Hopia > occurred at the beginning it means either "leader" or "bone picker" but if it > occurs at the end it designates what a person did or how the person did what > he did? I'm still a bit confused because I take article and noun to mean the > same thing, that is that neither is a verb. > > Or are you saying that if Hopia occurs at the end then it is the verb > form of "leader" of "bone picker" and means "leads" or "picks bones"? > > Or am I just confused right now. > > John Craven > New Orleans
Tubbee comes from the Choctaw "ubi" meaning "killer." I think Dusty has already explained this. It was tacked on to the end of names to mean "the killer of" whatever preceded it. Choctaw word order is different from English so that you have noun-adjective-article, for example. George Ann >From: Pattyg74056@cs.com >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Tubbee/Tubby Suname >Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:11:59 EDT > >I do not understand. I was told that "Tubbee" was a title of respect, and >not a name. > > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE.... >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes >and spelled correctly. >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
The area called Kentucky was originally hunting grounds only, hunted by many SE Indian people. I think the Chickasaw claimed some portion of it. George Ann >From: Richard Wilson <imafo2002@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:26:28 -0700 (PDT) > > Halito All: > > George Ann, anyone you can refer this to who has >the knowledge and can be helpful, would be great. They >were born in the Choctaw Nation. I do know that John >Harper was born in Mississippi and he and sister >Elizabeth Harper both owned land in the Choctaw Nation >in both Mississippi and Louisiana. The patents >indicated that the land was associated with treaties, >such as the "Treaty of Doaks' Stand" and in one case >the "War of 1812". > There are many references to their being full >blooded Choctaw. They came to Kentucky around 1775 and >John Harper was involved in the founding of >Boonesborough. I have discovered that there were a >number of Choctaws in the Boonesborough area as a >number of them died along with the settlers at the >"Battle of the Blue Licks". > One explanation that I had >for this was I think I remember from Choctaw history, >that around this period of time the Choctaw area was >becoming hunted out and the hunters had to go further >and further away from the villages to find game. >Perhaps they heard about Kentucky being full of game, >as it was at that time, and that is why they went to >Kentucky. > Also, there is evidence that John and Mary Ann >Harper continued to practice some of the traditional >customs, such as having all of the property in Mary >Ann's name. The only couple in Fayette County to have >property in the wife's name. > It appears that they continued to be called by >both names throughout their lives. As a matter of >fact, there was some Dawes testimony that among Indian >friends their names were completely Choctaw. In other >words, they didn't use the John or the Mary Ann. > > Imafo > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Got a PROBLEM?? Got a GRIPE?? Just wanna' WHINE?? Don't post it to the >list. Write to me, the listowner, at CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-admin@rootsweb.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Halito All: Yes George Ann you are correct. However, by 1775 Kentucky is being settled by Euro-Americans and perhaps some Choctaws decided to settle as well because the areas in Mississippi and Louisiana were hunted out. We do know there were Choctaw settlers in the area of Boonesborough, I'm just looking for an explanation. I really enjoy discussing these things with you, your ideas are very challenging and you have obviously been studying this for a while. I love the way you just challenge people and keep pushing the discussion foreward. Imafo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
I do not understand. I was told that "Tubbee" was a title of respect, and not a name.
First, I was not aware of the plight of the Louisiana Chahta. Dusty, is there something that our community at-large can do? Second, does anyone have any of the following: Any Brogden(sp?) or similar derivatives, any MacElyea(sp?) or similar derivatives, or any Evans listed on tribal rolls? In specific, I am looking for a tribal member by the name of Missouri Jane Brogden (Broglen, Broglin, Brogdin, etc.) born in Athens, AL approximately 30-years after the Trail of Tears. She married Mr. ? MacElyea(sp?), and had an unknown number of children, one of whom was Ida Maude MacElyea(sp?). After Mr. MacElyea died, Missouri Jane's farm was confiscated by either the State of Alabama or the town of Twickenham. She left Alabama with her children, married Mr. Frank Evans, and lived the rest of her days in Henderson, TX. She is buried in a prairie cemetery near Henderson. Her daughter, Ida Maude MacElyea(sp?), Married Mr. Richard Louis Hudson from Ireland. They had several children, the youngest one, and last surviving sibling at the age of 95, is Ouida Beatrice (Hudson) Hollis (born 12/02/1908 in Bivens, TX., Cass County). Thank you. Joe
I'd say that Betty is probably correct. Another possibility is that it is from another Muskogee language. George Ann >From: "brooke patton" <bluebird@crosstel.net> >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] KEOTA------a combination of choctaw words? >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:10:59 -0500 > >I am hoping someone can help me. In a publication, entitled, "OKLAHOMA >PLACE NAMES', by George Shirk, ( i think that is the author), lists the >town where i reside, KEOTA, as meaning "fire gone out" and says it is from >the choctaw language, however choctaws here say that is not correct, >several years ago a lady from Idabel, Betty Jacobs, an educator and choctaw >told my mother that it does not mean "fire gone out", but posibly a >combination of choctaw words, translated, "no kindling wood", of course it >may not even be related to anything choctaw. Can u ofer your opinion on >this matter, Thank You, Brooke Patton > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHAHTA-L list discussions on history, culture, language. >Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes, >nothing in the subject line, turn off signatures. >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Halito All: George Ann, anyone you can refer this to who has the knowledge and can be helpful, would be great. They were born in the Choctaw Nation. I do know that John Harper was born in Mississippi and he and sister Elizabeth Harper both owned land in the Choctaw Nation in both Mississippi and Louisiana. The patents indicated that the land was associated with treaties, such as the "Treaty of Doaks' Stand" and in one case the "War of 1812". There are many references to their being full blooded Choctaw. They came to Kentucky around 1775 and John Harper was involved in the founding of Boonesborough. I have discovered that there were a number of Choctaws in the Boonesborough area as a number of them died along with the settlers at the "Battle of the Blue Licks". One explanation that I had for this was I think I remember from Choctaw history, that around this period of time the Choctaw area was becoming hunted out and the hunters had to go further and further away from the villages to find game. Perhaps they heard about Kentucky being full of game, as it was at that time, and that is why they went to Kentucky. Also, there is evidence that John and Mary Ann Harper continued to practice some of the traditional customs, such as having all of the property in Mary Ann's name. The only couple in Fayette County to have property in the wife's name. It appears that they continued to be called by both names throughout their lives. As a matter of fact, there was some Dawes testimony that among Indian friends their names were completely Choctaw. In other words, they didn't use the John or the Mary Ann. Imafo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com
I'm wondering if this indicates they are mixed-bloods. George Ann >From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 02:20:08 EDT > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 4:33:41 PM Central Daylight Time, >imafo2002@yahoo.com writes: > > > > > > I really don't know where to go from here. It is > > really quite puzzling. It's quite unfortunate that the > > Euro-Americans were so intent on destroying the > > culture and language. Then we wouldn't have such > > difficulties. > > Do you guys have any ideas? > > > >Hello Imafo, > > In the case of the Harpers/Hopias it seems the use of Harper was >voluntary on their part and not imposed on them by Euro-Americans. Many >Indians with Hopia in their names kept their Choctaw names but at least one >of the Hopias, Charles, and his descendents, seem to have voluntarily >changed >theirs to Harper. > > John Craven > New Orleans > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHAHTA-L list discussions on history, culture, language. >Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes, >nothing in the subject line, turn off signatures. >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
I'll have to ask my Ikbi. I am sending a copy of this to the other list as it seems to me to be a question about culture. George Ann >From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 02:13:34 EDT > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:21:09 AM Central Daylight Time, >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > After a prescribed length of mourning (prescribed by > > the medicince man or Ikbi), the bones were taken down and scraped clean >by > > the bone picker who had especially long nails for this purpose. The >cleaned > > bones were then bundled and placed in a common bone house. You can guess > > that this practice was repugnant to Europeans. > > > >Oh, I don't know George Ann, if that would have been very repugnant to >Europeans. >Afterall the relics that the Churches and faithful have accumulated in >reliquaries over the years of so many saints. There was a time that people >went very crazy over getting a relic of a saint or someone who was >considered >very holy and it could get pretty grizzly. > > There's a reliquary here in New Orleans at the Church of Our Lady >of >Prompt Succor but I don't remember whose bones are in it. And recently at >the church I usually go to, we had the relliquary that carried the bones of >the Little Flower, St. Therese of Lisieux. It was extraordinarily ornate. >Very beautiful. > > You mention bone houses. There was something similar in Europe >with >some church I saw in pictures somewhere where people gathered skulls, and >maybe other bones, of the deceased and used them to line the walls of the >church. I can't remember what country in Europe or what church but I do >remember seeing it. > > There also have been a number of "museums", such as in Cambodia, >with >thousands of human skulls from the various wars of genocide that have >occured >in the last century. > > I guess none of these are exactly similar to the bone houses of the >Choctaw >but there are some similarities. > > Were the Choctaw medicine men only called "ikbi" or were they also >called "hopia"? > > John Craven > New Orleans > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Got a PROBLEM?? Got a GRIPE?? Just wanna'WHINE?? Don't post it to the >list...write to me at CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-admin@rootsweb.com > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Richard, What is the time frame for the change? Also, the location of this family? George Ann >From: Richard Wilson <imafo2002@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah >Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:23:50 -0700 (PDT) > > Halito All: > > Especially to John and George Ann, I have just >discovered that the name Hopiah definitely was used as >a surname for a while. I checked on some of the >applications of Charles Harper's descendants and they >indicated that he was also known as Charles Hopiah. >They stated that they started using Harper because it >sounded something like Hopiah. Of course they were >very close to and were probably related to the Harper >family in some way. > I really don't know where to go from here. It is >really quite puzzling. It's quite unfortunate that the >Euro-Americans were so intent on destroying the >culture and language. Then we wouldn't have such >difficulties. > Do you guys have any ideas? > > Imafo > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW >Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
I am hoping someone can help me. In a publication, entitled, "OKLAHOMA PLACE NAMES', by George Shirk, ( i think that is the author), lists the town where i reside, KEOTA, as meaning "fire gone out" and says it is from the choctaw language, however choctaws here say that is not correct, several years ago a lady from Idabel, Betty Jacobs, an educator and choctaw told my mother that it does not mean "fire gone out", but posibly a combination of choctaw words, translated, "no kindling wood", of course it may not even be related to anything choctaw. Can u ofer your opinion on this matter, Thank You, Brooke Patton