Looking for someone who has done research on the families of the Jena band. I am interested in the Allen family. Thank you, Tammy --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/

There is a good description of the entire "Turkey-Buzzard Man" ritual in (I think) Swanton's "Social and Ceremonial Practices of the Choctaw". Don';t eat lunch before reading it. dusty

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/4gC.2ACE/459.2.1.1.2 Message Board Post: Eli W. Crowder who married Patsy Goins...the W. was for White...Eli White Crowder..Eli's mother was Lahoma or Lorhama White, and his mother's father's name was Eli White if I remember right... B.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/4gC.2ACE/459.2.1.1.1 Message Board Post: The Crowder line is not my direct line, but was connected thru my 4th g-grandfather's 1st cousin Martha Patsy Goins..I don't have a lot of info on the Crowders, tho they are my relatives....Eli W. Crowder was married to Patsy Goins, but he was passed on before the Dawes rolls were final..Patsy and her children were on there I believe...I will try to find out more and let you know if I do... Barbara

In a message dated 7/25/2002 9:12:53 PM Central Daylight Time, cindy3one@hotmail.com writes: > It was left on the platform which was set on fire or it was carried away and > buried. > > Hello Cindy, that sounds a lot more dignified and a lot more respectful of the dead than carrying parts of the flesh back home hanging from underneath their long fingernail as mentioned in a previous email on this subject. John Craven New Orleans

In a message dated 7/25/2002 7:41:00 PM Central Daylight Time, j_fawn@webtv.net writes: > . I knew if I > watched this list long enough there would be someone else looking for > their Shoptaw family heritage. > > Jane Little Deer > Congradulations on finding a relative, Jane, John Craven New Orleans

In a message dated 7/25/2002 1:13:58 PM Central Daylight Time, wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > If you are referring to the story of Seqouia "inventing" a writing system > for the Cherokee, you might be interested to know that some traditinal > Cherokee claim that the writing system pre-dates European contact. > Apparently, it was used only by medicine people. Part of the reason, the > Cherokee re-acted so badly to what Sequoia did was that they felt that he > had betrayed their traditions. > George Ann, I wasn't specifically refering to Sequoia but that is a good analogy to what I was thinking. It seems to me that the Choctaw language in its written form was a very recent development and not really something that pre-dated the arrival of Europeans but something that was only a couple of hundred years old if that old. You mention that Cyrus Byington had a lot to do with it. It seems thought that he was not an Indian at all or am I wrong in thinking that. Personally, I think Sequoia did a noble thing in putting the Cherokee language in writing and the same goes for Byington. The ptetroglyphs, I think that's what they are called, of the Aztecs and Mayans would be a form of heiroglyphic writing that also predated the arrival of Europeans but it was of great importance, I think that the Spanish missionaries and the Aztecs themselves after the arrival of the missionaries set about developing and putting down on paper a written Nahuatl language for the Aztecs. That's my understanding of how the written Nahuatl language came about. John Craven New Orleans

In a message dated 7/25/2002 12:59:11 PM Central Daylight Time, wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > Some of the stories say they came from the west: one story sounds like the > west coast another sounds like the plains. One story mentions a people > called Cicimeca (or something like that). The interesting part of this is > that this looks very much like the Nahuatl word Chichimeca, meaning the > "untamed ones" and referred to all of the peoples living north of the Aztec > Empire. > > > George Ann > That would be interesting if the Aztecs considered the Choctaws as being "untamed ones." Especially if it was on account of the Choctaw habit of picking bones of the deceased. John Craven New Orleans

In a message dated 7/25/2002 12:55:24 PM Central Daylight Time, wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > I don't recall exactly, except that the bonepickers were then invited as > the > guest of honor at a big feast, where some of the decaying flesh still clung > to their long fingernails. This struck the European observers as not > exactly > wholesome. It was one of the practices targeted immediately for > extermination by missionaries. > > George Ann, it seems that since only the Choctaws of so many tribes practiced this ritual, it was not only repugnant to Europeans but also to all other Indian tribes in this hemisphere. I for one am glad it is not a custom that is still around. At least I hope so and I hope it stays so. John Craven New Orleans

In a message dated 7/25/2002 12:49:40 PM Central Daylight Time, wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > Articles are specialized adjectives. In English, they would be "the," "a", > and "an." > > Hopia is a compound word. Hopi is a verb. The suffix "a" means "one which" > or "that which." > > A possible example of the noun-adj-article word order would be "chuka chito > pa," where chuka means house, chito means large, and pa means this. > Literally translated, it reads house-big-this. > > (That's my baby Choctaw.) > > I hope this clears that up. > > George Ann > > It helps a lot George Ann. Thanks, John Craven New Orleans

In a message dated 7/25/2002 12:29:02 PM Central Daylight Time, wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > This is what my Ikbi wrote. > > "It was my understanding that hopia meant "mounder" or "builder of > mounds." The iksa anumoli aided in the mounding, but the mounders were a > seperate "office" or "post" to the best o my knowledge." > > George Ann > Thanks, George Ann, it sounds like from this that the Hopia's were not the "bone pickers" but nevertheless their "office" or "post" put them in a special position of authority within the tribe. John Craven New Orleans

Well John, I'm not a native speaker, only a student of the online courses offered by the Nation in OK, so I am not a comprehensive authority. In the course of the 3 semesters that I was taking the classes however, along with the various printed resources that I have gathered over the past several years, the only article words that I have run across are the ones I mentioned in my original posting-- "yvmma," "ilvppa" and number words. The first two are often abbreviated and tacked onto the end of the noun phrase, almost like a suffix. "Chukka yvmma" (that house) would in common conversation be shortened to "chukka-ma." Likewise, "chukka ilvppa" (this house) would be shortened to "chukka-pa." So to the extent of my instruction so far, "yvmma" and "ilvppa", and their respective abbreviated forms ("-ma" and "-pa") are the only words besides numbers that are used as articles in Choctaw. The use of number words as articles is the same as in English. When we say "one house" or "two houses" in English, we are using the numbers "one" and "two" as articles, instead of a word like "the" or "a." Likewise, in Choctaw, number words can be used as articles, as in "chukka achvfa" (one house) or "chukka tuklo" (two houses). Hope that helps. --Sean

It was left on the platform which was set on fire or it was carried away and buried. ----- Original Message ----- From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:39 PM To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah In a message dated 7/23/2002 10:16:29 AM Central Daylight Time, wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:21:09 AM Central Daylight Time, > >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > After a prescribed length of mourning (prescribed by > > > the medicince man or Ikbi), the bones were taken down and scraped clean > >by > > > the bone picker who had especially long nails for this purpose. The > >cleaned > > > bones were then bundled and placed in a common bone house George Ann, I guess this question will be repugnant to some on the list but I think it needs to be asked. What did the bone pickers do with the "pickings?" John Craven New Orleans ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: MacElyea Brogden Evans Hudson Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/4gC.2ACE/959 Message Board Post: I am searching for data on the following: Clayburn Brogden born in AL 1828, and spouse Mary Ann Ryan John MacElyea, born 1776 in Virginia, Tennessee, or North Carolina. John MacElyea, descendant of the above, born around 1859?. Missouri Jane (Brogden) MacElyea and later Evans, born March 1865 in Athens, AL or Jackson Co., AL., and married to John MacElyea (above). Ida Maude (MacElyea) Hudson, born 1882. Oida Beatrice (Hudson) Hollis, born 1908, Bivens, TX, Cass Co. In 1880, John & Missouri Jane were in Limestone Co., AL., had two sons, Ruben E. (2 yrs.), and Joseph Oscar (4/12's year) [Missouri Jane was 22 & John was 28]. On the same acreage, but in a different house, lived Missouri Jane's mother Mary Ann (Ryan) (Brogden) McDaniel and her husband JW McDaniel, and children James Brogden (18), John (16), Charles (12). Mary Ann was evidently 13 years older than Mr. McDaniel. After Mr. MacElyea died, Missouri Jane's farm was confiscated by either the State of Alabama or the town of Twickenham. She left Alabama with her children, married Mr. Frank Evans, and lived the rest of her days in Henderson, TX. She is buried on a prairie near Henderson. Her daughter, Ida Maude MacElyea, Married Mr. Louis Richard Hudson from Ireland. They had several children, the youngest one, and last surviving sibling at the age of 95, is Ouida Beatrice (Hudson) Hollis. The MacElyea's are thought to be Cherokee or Choctaw, and the Brogdens are supposed to be Choctaw. I have found Thomas C. MacELyea #40584 in Tennessee, Charlotte Brogden #31181 in Tennessee, Lilly AF Brogdon #2260 in Georgia, on the Eastern Cherokee Roll of 1909. Thank you for your help.

Halito Laura, I don't know if I or some of my cousins can help you or not, but we are looking also for the connection of our Shoptaw family with the Choctaw's in either Oklahoma or Mississippi. Some of my Shoptaw family still live in Illinois and also Greene Co. Indiana. Please e-mail me at jlittledeer@webtv.net or j-fawn@webtv.net. We shall put our heads together and see what we can come up with. I knew if I watched this list long enough there would be someone else looking for their Shoptaw family heritage. Jane Little Deer

I am not Sean, but this is my understanding. Choctaw is written with letters from the Roman alphabet as is English. Much of the work done on written Choctaw was done by Cyrus Byington. If you are referring to the story of Seqouia "inventing" a writing system for the Cherokee, you might be interested to know that some traditinal Cherokee claim that the writing system pre-dates European contact. Apparently, it was used only by medicine people. Part of the reason, the Cherokee re-acted so badly to what Sequoia did was that they felt that he had betrayed their traditions. Sequoia was of mixed-racial descent and Christian. He gave the syllabary (symbols matching the syallables in the language) to Christian missionaries. Cherokee is an Iroquois Language. I have talked to some traditional Onandagas (also Iroquois language) and they say that they indeed did have writing before Europeans came. George Ann >From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] parts of speech, word definitions, etc. >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:27:35 EDT > >Hello Sean, > > thanks for the very informative email you sent me on grammar. I am >not as confused as I was. I've reprinted your email below so that others >who >may have missed it will be able to read it in its entirety since a lot of >us >on the list are having some trouble with names and their meanings, ect. > > Would you be able to put on the list a listing of all the >"articles" >that the Choctaw used in their sentences? > > Also, is the written language of the Choctaws a fairly recent >development, meaning within the last couple of hundred years or so? Was >there any one Choctaw considered most responsible for creating the Choctaw >language? > > John Craven > New Orleans > >In a message dated 7/24/2002 11:21:59 PM Central Daylight Time, >seanps@george.net writes: > > > > Yes John, > > > > The same word could be used at the beginning of a sentence, as a noun, >or > > at the end of a sentence, as a verb. Though I don't know what "hopiah" > > means myself, if it does mean "leader," it could also be used in verb >form > > meaning "to lead." > > > > Frequently in Choctaw the distinction between verb form (e.g., "to >lead") > > and noun form (e.g., "leader") is made my adding the prefix "na" or >"nan" > > (depending on whether the root word starts with a noun or a consonant). >For > > example, I was taught that the word for "to learn" is "ikhvna" and the >word > > for "student" (i.e., a learner) is "nanikhvna." I have however, also >seen > > the word "ikhvna" used to mean "student" without the "nan-" prefix. >Because > > of the way Choctaw sentences are constructed, if a word shows up in a > > certain place in the sentence, you know it has to be a noun (or verb, or > > whatever, depending on its > > position). English works the same way. > > > > In English, we usually add "-er" to a verb in order to make it a noun > > (e.g., lead...leader), but sometimes not. For example, a man can be a > > father or he can father a child (no change in word form). >Coincidentally, > > you can even do that with the word "lead," since someone can be the >"lead" > > in a given situation (most often used in reference to acting, but > > exclusively). As with Choctaw, where the word occurs in the sentence >gives > > you the context to determine whether it is a noun, verb, etc. ("He will > > lead us." as opposed to "He is the lead.") > > > > As for articles, in English those would be words like "the," "a," "an," > > "this," "that," and number words, which invariably come at the beginning >of > > a noun phrase. A "noun phrase" would be something like, "that big >house," > > where we have an article ("that") followed by an adjective ("big"), both >of > > which describe the noun ("house"). Which house? That big one. > > Interestingly (as George Ann pointed out), in Choctaw, noun phrases are > > constructed in EXACTLY the opposite order of how they would be >constructed > > in English, i.e., noun-adjective-article. So in Choctaw, "that big >house" > > would be correctly translated as "chukka chito > > yvmma" but, if you break it apart literally, "chukka" means "house" (the > > noun), "chito" means "big" (the adjective), and "yvmma" means "that one" > > (the article). > > > > The Choctaw language however, doesn't use articles as much as English. > > They/we really only use "yvmma" ("that"), "ilvppa" ("this"), and number > > words, and basically have no equivalents for "a," "an," and "the." >Instead > > of saying "the rabbit hopped" or "a rabbit hopped," they/we just say > > "rabbit hopped," and if you aren't sure which rabbit someone is talking > > about, they say "that white one over there." > > > > OK, enough grammar-babble from me for now. I am curious about the >"leader" > > vs. "bone-picker" dilemma over "hopiah," though. It could very well be a > > case of dual meaning depending on context but I would love to know for >sure. > > > > Hachi-pisa-l'achike. > > > > --Sean > > > > > > > In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:14:42 AM Central Daylight Time, > > > wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > Choctaw is a noun-adjective-article language. > > > > That would be the significance of the location of word order. Also, >the > > > > verb always comes at the end of the sentence. > > > > > > > > George Ann > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, George Ann, > > > > > > if I understand what you are saying correctly, if Hopia occurs >at > > the > > > beginning of a name then it designates what that person was, such as >if > > Hopia > > > occurred at the beginning it means either "leader" or "bone picker" >but > > if it > > > occurs at the end it designates what a person did or how the person >did > > what > > > he did? I'm still a bit confused because I take article and noun to >mean > > the > > > same thing, that is that neither is a verb. > > > > > > Or are you saying that if Hopia occurs at the end then it is the > > verb > > > form of "leader" of "bone picker" and means "leads" or "picks bones"? > > > > > > Or am I just confused right now. > > > > > > John Craven > > > New Orleans > > > > > > > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Need more CHOCTAW information?? Try Rusty Lang's website at >http://www.choctaw-web.com for censuses, genealogy lessons, articles, etc. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Some of the stories say they came from the west: one story sounds like the west coast another sounds like the plains. One story mentions a people called Cicimeca (or something like that). The interesting part of this is that this looks very much like the Nahuatl word Chichimeca, meaning the "untamed ones" and referred to all of the peoples living north of the Aztec Empire. George Ann >From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:08:56 EDT > >In a message dated 7/24/2002 10:23:04 AM Central Daylight Time, >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > The area called Kentucky was originally hunting grounds only, hunted by >many > > SE Indian people. I think the Chickasaw claimed some portion of it. > > > > George Ann > > > > > >George Ann, > > according to the map sketches I've seen in the book "Dancing >Rabbit" >by Broox Sledge (1986), the Chickasaw's land was to the north of the >Choctaw >Nation and covered the northern part of Mississippi and extended into >Tennessee. Did it extend farther then that into Kentucky? > > Also, I have read in some article somewhere that the Choctaw people >originally came from the MidWest and moved south to get away from a lot of >tribal warfare. If that is so, then could it be possible that their >original >hunting grounds may have been much closer to Kentucky and that possibly >they >never ever really gave them up when they moved south into Mississippi, that >is if this story is correct about them originally coming from farther >north? > > John Craven > New Orleans > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHAHTA-L list discussions on history, culture, language. >Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes, >nothing in the subject line, turn off signatures. >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/4gC.2ACE/958 Message Board Post: I AM LOOKING FOR INFO ON MY FATHER JAMES SHOPTAW.HE WAS BORN ON AN INDIAN RESERVATION IN OKLAHOMA.HE DIED IN 1935-1936IN EAST ILLINOIS. HE WAS BURIED AT VALHALLA CEMETARY IN ILLINOIS. ANY INFO WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.CAN CONTACT ME AT 636-586-1634.THANK YOU.

I don't recall exactly, except that the bonepickers were then invited as the guest of honor at a big feast, where some of the decaying flesh still clung to their long fingernails. This struck the European observers as not exactly wholesome. It was one of the practices targeted immediately for extermination by missionaries. I am also sending this over to the other list. I think you are on that one also, aren't you? George Ann >From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:37:24 EDT > >In a message dated 7/23/2002 10:16:29 AM Central Daylight Time, >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:21:09 AM Central Daylight Time, > > >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > After a prescribed length of mourning (prescribed by > > > > the medicince man or Ikbi), the bones were taken down and scraped >clean > > >by > > > > the bone picker who had especially long nails for this purpose. The > > >cleaned > > > > bones were then bundled and placed in a common bone house > >George Ann, > > I guess this question will be repugnant to some on the list but I >think it needs to be asked. > > What did the bone pickers do with the "pickings?" > > John Craven > New Orleans > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW >Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc. > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Articles are specialized adjectives. In English, they would be "the," "a", and "an." Hopia is a compound word. Hopi is a verb. The suffix "a" means "one which" or "that which." A possible example of the noun-adj-article word order would be "chuka chito pa," where chuka means house, chito means large, and pa means this. Literally translated, it reads house-big-this. (That's my baby Choctaw.) I hope this clears that up. George Ann >From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Re: Tribal membership >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 02:00:08 EDT > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:14:42 AM Central Daylight Time, >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > Choctaw is a noun-adjective-article language. > > > > That would be the significance of the location of word order. Also, the > > verb > > always comes at the end of the sentence. > > > > George Ann > > > > > >Well, George Ann, > > if I understand what you are saying correctly, if Hopia occurs at >the >beginning of a name then it designates what that person was, such as if >Hopia >occurred at the beginning it means either "leader" or "bone picker" but if >it >occurs at the end it designates what a person did or how the person did >what >he did? I'm still a bit confused because I take article and noun to mean >the >same thing, that is that neither is a verb. > > Or are you saying that if Hopia occurs at the end then it is the >verb >form of "leader" of "bone picker" and means "leads" or "picks bones"? > > Or am I just confused right now. > > John Craven > New Orleans > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW >Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com