Richard: It's OK - We expect occasional slight deviation from genealogy when addressing certain issues, as you point out - we just try to keep it to a bare minimum to avoid complaints from die-hard genealogists. Bottom line - if you don't hear from me, everything's OK!! When you DO hear from me - pay attention! I am a crotchety old senior citizen (smile) and have zero tolerance for those who cannot follow plainly-stated guidelines. dusty Listowner ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Wilson <imafo2002@yahoo.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 6:34 PM Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] Appropriate Topics > Halito All: > > I have been taking care of some personal business > and was quite pleased and very surprised with the > lively discussion. > However, I was quite concerned that a topic that > I introduced on 7/13 would cause so much conflict. The > question I asked back on 7/13 concerned John Harper > (Hopiah). I was trying to discover if I could use the > name Hopiah in some way to discover other ancestors. > Dusty pointed out that with the name Tubbee, which I > used as an example, It was a name that was used to > honor a person for having killed an enemy in battle. > Of course we all know there were many ways a Choctaw > could have acquired a name. > However, there is the case when a family or clan > had a particular responsibility and their name was a > particular designation of this. I wonder if in the > case of Hopiah, Leader or Mound Builder, if this could > be the case. As you can see, you cannot answer the > genealogical question, without also asking and > answering some historical, cultural,religious, etc, > etc. questions. > Now to say that you must then split the various > parts of this discussion and put it on different > sites, would dilute the aim and purpose of the > discussion to the point that it would have no value. > Therefore I think it makes sense to keep the > discussion where it started. Not to mention the fact > that you would lose all sense of continuity, logic and > reason, by splitting up all of the various elements of > the discussion. > Well I have said what I had to say. I just know > what kind of discussion I need to involve people of > knowledge in to discover my ancestors. After all, that > is the point! > > Imafo > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > http://health.yahoo.com > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE.... > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes and spelled correctly. > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

Halito All: I am quite discouraged now. This is the third time on this list when it seemed I was beginning to make some progress and ran into a roadblock. Now the discussion has ended and I am left without a way to discover the answer to the question about my "ancestors". I have been studying my family for several years now and I think I have a lot to offer, but I would also like some benefit as well. I can tell you that I have found it necessary to study Choctaw history, culture and contemporary conditions, politics etc. I have also found it necessary to study the history of other tribes and the history of the American Indian in general. After all, you are studying your family through time which affects them, their culture and their "genealogy". As in the case of John Harper (Hopiah), Hopiah became a surname and then was changed to Harper. One cannot find one's roots without first discovering the historical roots. Our ancestors did not live in a vacuum. In this case the roots of the name Hopiah. This is now three times that I was thwarted in a line of inquiry and I must begin to ask if I am at the point of diminishing returns. As soon as it appears that I am getting close to an answer someone throws up a road block and the topic is not to be discussed again. Well apparently I must have gotten on the wrong list. imafo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com

Halito All: I am quite discouraged now. This is the third time on this list when it seemed I was beginning to make some progress and ran into a roadblock. Now the discussion has ended and I am left without a way to discover the answer to the question about my "ancestors". I have been studying my family for several years now and I think I have a lot to offer, but I would also like some benefit as well. I can tell you that I have found it necessary to study Choctaw history, culture and contemporary conditions, politics etc. I have also found it necessary to study the history of other tribes and the history of the American Indian in general. After all, you are studying your family through time which affects them, their culture and their "genealogy". As in the case of John Harper (Hopiah), Hopiah became a surname and then was changed to Harper. One cannot find one's roots without first discovering the historical roots. Our ancestors did not live in a vacuum. In this case the roots of the name Hopiah. This is now three times that I was thwarted in a line of inquiry and I must begin to ask if I am at the point of diminishing returns. As soon as it appears that I am getting close to an answer someone throws up a road block and the topic is not to be discussed again. Well apparently I must have gotten on the wrong list. imafo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com

Thanks Judy, your pages their with thier information, especially the Dawes roll census card index has been a great leap forward. I am now confirming and getting most of the folks numbers I didn't have before. Jen Genealogy Homepage: http://jenniferhsrn2.homestead.com/index.html Other email address: jenniferhsrn@aol.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy" <jwhite@unitedwestern.net> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Surname Updates > First I want to thank all of you who have submitted queries to our pages, > they are great, just keep them coming. > Today I have gone through the tribes and made a listing on Surnames to > present by each tribe, so instead of having to read each posting you can > also search by Surname. > Please check it out http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/queries/index2.htm > Please add your Surnames, Brick Walls, or Ancestors. > Thanks > Judy > > Research tools made to be used: > Native American Genealogy - http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native > AccessGenealogy.com - http://www.accessgenealogy.com > Discover Genealogy WebRings - http://www.accessgenealogy.com/rings > My Home pages - http://www.itsjudy.com > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Got a PROBLEM?? Got a GRIPE?? Just wanna' WHINE?? Don't post it to the list. Write to me, the listowner, at CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-admin@rootsweb.com >

First I want to thank all of you who have submitted queries to our pages, they are great, just keep them coming. Today I have gone through the tribes and made a listing on Surnames to present by each tribe, so instead of having to read each posting you can also search by Surname. Please check it out http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/queries/index2.htm Please add your Surnames, Brick Walls, or Ancestors. Thanks Judy Research tools made to be used: Native American Genealogy - http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native AccessGenealogy.com - http://www.accessgenealogy.com Discover Genealogy WebRings - http://www.accessgenealogy.com/rings My Home pages - http://www.itsjudy.com

Thanks, Dusty, I completly agree!! While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, there are some "opinions" that other people may not agree with. Thanks, and keep up the great work!! Linda

Halito All: I have been taking care of some personal business and was quite pleased and very surprised with the lively discussion. However, I was quite concerned that a topic that I introduced on 7/13 would cause so much conflict. The question I asked back on 7/13 concerned John Harper (Hopiah). I was trying to discover if I could use the name Hopiah in some way to discover other ancestors. Dusty pointed out that with the name Tubbee, which I used as an example, It was a name that was used to honor a person for having killed an enemy in battle. Of course we all know there were many ways a Choctaw could have acquired a name. However, there is the case when a family or clan had a particular responsibility and their name was a particular designation of this. I wonder if in the case of Hopiah, Leader or Mound Builder, if this could be the case. As you can see, you cannot answer the genealogical question, without also asking and answering some historical, cultural,religious, etc, etc. questions. Now to say that you must then split the various parts of this discussion and put it on different sites, would dilute the aim and purpose of the discussion to the point that it would have no value. Therefore I think it makes sense to keep the discussion where it started. Not to mention the fact that you would lose all sense of continuity, logic and reason, by splitting up all of the various elements of the discussion. Well I have said what I had to say. I just know what kind of discussion I need to involve people of knowledge in to discover my ancestors. After all, that is the point! Imafo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com

Guys, if you will READ your "Welcome Message" and pay attention to the taglines at the end of the messages (the ones that say "Got a complaint or gripe?), you will note that I requested that, if you have a complaint, please write to me personally (off-list) and do not post it to the list! I will contact the offender as listowner. Those types of messages clutter up the archives as much as non-genealogy ones do. Thanks dusty Listowner ----- Original Message ----- From: <Utchika@aol.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Discussions on this site > I would like to second this remark. The discussions here lately have little > to do with genealogy and lots to do with Choctaw culture. While they are > interesting and the people's comments are also interesting, I would like to > see more straight genealogical work. > > Sorry, don't mean to offend, but I'm not interested in bone pickers. > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHAHTA-L list discussions on history, culture, language. Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes, nothing in the subject line, turn off signatures. > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

I have had a complaint about non-genealogy postings to the CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L list. Let's please take all discussions about history, culture, language, etc. to the proper list- CHAHTA-L, or correspond with each other privately. dusty Listowner ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Morgan <nansli@bellsouth.net> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] Discussions on this site > Dusty: Is this not the site for genealogy searches instead of the discussion site? I joined this list for genealogical info not to have my mailbox filled with e-mails that contain no genealogical info. > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information. Try Judy White's NATIVE AMERICAN RESOURCE CENTER at http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, newsletters, lookups, articles, etc. >

Tammy: Get in touch with Sharon Brown, 105 Gum St., Jonesboro, La. 71251. She is a professional genealogist who did the research to get the Jena Band their federal recognition. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: <tammyj@brightok.net> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:32 AM Subject: [CHOCTAW-SE] Jena Band of Choctaws > Looking for someone who has done research on the families of the Jena > band. I am interested in the Allen family. Thank you, > Tammy > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ > > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

In a message dated 7/26/2002 1:34:41 AM Central Daylight Time, seanps@george.net writes: > > The use of number words as articles is the same as in English. When we > say "one house" or "two houses" in English, we are using the numbers > "one" and "two" as articles, instead of a word like "the" or "a." > Likewise, in Choctaw, number words can be used as articles, as in > "chukka achvfa" (one house) or "chukka tuklo" (two houses). > > Hope that helps. > > --Sean > > Hello Sean, this helps a great deal, I think. Now when we see Choctaw names we may be able to divide the names up into their nouns and articles and adjectives or at least get a good sense of what the noun in the name is by knowing where to find and how to see the "article". Have you ever run across abbreviations of "number words or articles" in a name or phrase as with the other articles you mentioned "-ma" or '-pa"? On a related note I guess, it's my understanding that before the creation of a written Choctaw language which we have been discussing, the Choctaw used picture words. Were there any similarities between these picture words and the heiroglyphic languages of the Aztecs and Mayans and others? If so this may give us a better clue as to where the Choctaw originally emigrated from. John Craven New Orleans

----- Original Message ----- From: brooke patton To: NANSLI@BELLSOUTH.NET Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 12:55 PM Subject: A GREAT IDEA susan, instead of whining about dusty' site, why don't you unsubscribe. Many of us enjoy te variety. or perhaps you could subscribe to a pay site. if u have websters look up the words "whine" and "dreaded" most of dread hearing from people like you. Patton

I would like to second this remark. The discussions here lately have little to do with genealogy and lots to do with Choctaw culture. While they are interesting and the people's comments are also interesting, I would like to see more straight genealogical work. Sorry, don't mean to offend, but I'm not interested in bone pickers.

I also would like to know more about the culture, but there is a seperate list for that, and Dusty has pointed it out in the past. Not much lately on genealogy at all. Genealogy Homepage: http://jenniferhsrn2.homestead.com/index.html Other email address: jenniferhsrn@aol.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <Utchika@aol.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Discussions on this site > I would like to second this remark. The discussions here lately have little > to do with genealogy and lots to do with Choctaw culture. While they are > interesting and the people's comments are also interesting, I would like to > see more straight genealogical work. > > Sorry, don't mean to offend, but I'm not interested in bone pickers. > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHAHTA-L list discussions on history, culture, language. Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes, nothing in the subject line, turn off signatures. > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: goins-crowder Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/4gC.2ACE/459.2.1.1.2.1 Message Board Post: this eli W is the nephew of my gggrandfather eli B Crowder eli w is the son of Elsberry Crowder I think my Elijah B's brother this is my line of my family if you have any other info I would appreicate it. I know elsberry and my elijah(eli) parents were Ira and elizabeth Bailey.please emial me direct at Lightinldy@aol.com I have other info and pictures if you want to share .

A few comments, which are not intended to dispute what is written here. One, there are dialects of Choctaw. I have noticed differences between Mississippi Choctaw and Oklahoma Choctaw. Two, the position of the noun in the sentence determines what article it takes. Three, I don't have sufficient data to say exactly what governs article usage in Choctaw. I have seen one story, for example, that has tons of articles in it. It may be that in conversation articles tend to be dropped more than in more formal uses of the language like story-telling. Similar constraints happen in English as an analogy. George Ann >From: "Sean P. S. George" <seanps@george.net> >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] parts of speech, word definitions, etc. >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:44:08 -0500 > >Well John, > >I'm not a native speaker, only a student of the online courses offered >by the Nation in OK, so I am not a comprehensive authority. In the >course of the 3 semesters that I was taking the classes however, along >with the various printed resources that I have gathered over the past >several years, the only article words that I have run across are the >ones I mentioned in my original posting-- "yvmma," "ilvppa" and number >words. > >The first two are often abbreviated and tacked onto the end of the noun >phrase, almost like a suffix. "Chukka yvmma" (that house) would in >common conversation be shortened to "chukka-ma." Likewise, "chukka >ilvppa" (this house) would be shortened to "chukka-pa." So to the extent >of my instruction so far, "yvmma" and "ilvppa", and their respective >abbreviated forms ("-ma" and "-pa") are the only words besides numbers >that are used as articles in Choctaw. > >The use of number words as articles is the same as in English. When we >say "one house" or "two houses" in English, we are using the numbers >"one" and "two" as articles, instead of a word like "the" or "a." >Likewise, in Choctaw, number words can be used as articles, as in >"chukka achvfa" (one house) or "chukka tuklo" (two houses). > >Hope that helps. > >--Sean > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Need more CHOCTAW information?? Try Rusty Lang's website at >http://www.choctaw-web.com for censuses, genealogy lessons, articles, etc. > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

No, he wasn't Choctaw. As I recall, he was a Presbyterian missionary. However, he apparently earned great respect among the Choctaw. The Choctaw embraced literacy and education. By the 1880's, they had achieved 80% literacy in Choctaw and built schools for both boys and girls. Their literacy rate was twice as high as the literacy rate of the non-Indians in Indian Territory at the time. Also, most of the non-Indians did not send their children to school. Of course, educating girls and women was unusual during that time. George Ann >From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] parts of speech, word definitions, etc. >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:44:17 EDT > >In a message dated 7/25/2002 1:13:58 PM Central Daylight Time, >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > If you are referring to the story of Seqouia "inventing" a writing >system > > for the Cherokee, you might be interested to know that some traditinal > > Cherokee claim that the writing system pre-dates European contact. > > Apparently, it was used only by medicine people. Part of the reason, the > > Cherokee re-acted so badly to what Sequoia did was that they felt that >he > > had betrayed their traditions. > > > >George Ann, > > I wasn't specifically refering to Sequoia but that is a good >analogy >to what I was thinking. It seems to me that the Choctaw language in its >written form was a very recent development and not really something that >pre-dated the arrival of Europeans but something that was only a couple of >hundred years old if that old. You mention that Cyrus Byington had a lot >to >do with it. It seems thought that he was not an Indian at all or am I >wrong >in thinking that. > > Personally, I think Sequoia did a noble thing in putting the >Cherokee >language in writing and the same goes for Byington. > > The ptetroglyphs, I think that's what they are called, of the >Aztecs >and Mayans would be a form of heiroglyphic writing that also predated the >arrival of Europeans but it was of great importance, I think that the >Spanish >missionaries and the Aztecs themselves after the arrival of the >missionaries >set about developing and putting down on paper a written Nahuatl language >for >the Aztecs. That's my understanding of how the written Nahuatl language >came >about. > > John Craven > New Orleans > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Need more CHOCTAW information. Try Judy White's NATIVE AMERICAN RESOURCE >CENTER at http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, newsletters, >lookups, articles, etc. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Thanks, Cindy, for supplying the missing data. George Ann >From: "Cindy Shepard" <cindy3one@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] bone-pickers >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 20:12:33 -0600 > >It was left on the platform which was set on fire or it was carried away >and buried. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:39 PM >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Hopiah > >In a message dated 7/23/2002 10:16:29 AM Central Daylight Time, >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 10:21:09 AM Central Daylight Time, > > >wood_owl@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > After a prescribed length of mourning (prescribed by > > > > the medicince man or Ikbi), the bones were taken down and scraped >clean > > >by > > > > the bone picker who had especially long nails for this purpose. The > > >cleaned > > > > bones were then bundled and placed in a common bone house > >George Ann, > > I guess this question will be repugnant to some on the list but I >think it needs to be asked. > > What did the bone pickers do with the "pickings?" > > John Craven > New Orleans > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW >Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc.Get more from the >Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Home Page: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/chat.htm _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

I have read that there was a colony of Choctaw in Illinois. Do you have any information about that? George Ann >From: j_fawn@webtv.net (Janie) >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] james shoptaw >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:41:00 -0500 (CDT) > >Halito Laura, I don't know if I or some of my cousins can help you or >not, but we are looking also for the connection of our Shoptaw family >with the Choctaw's in either Oklahoma or Mississippi. Some of my >Shoptaw family still live in Illinois and also Greene Co. Indiana. >Please e-mail me at jlittledeer@webtv.net or j-fawn@webtv.net. We shall >put our heads together and see what we can come up with. I knew if I >watched this list long enough there would be someone else looking for >their Shoptaw family heritage. > >Jane Little Deer > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

Dusty: Is this not the site for genealogy searches instead of the discussion site? I joined this list for genealogical info not to have my mailbox filled with e-mails that contain no genealogical info.