I remember as a young child my aunt(who was like a grandmother to me) use to always say 'we are part Choctaw with a little Cherokee'. She was always proud of it. My grandmother(and other ancestors) were on the Dawes rolls, but I also remember being told 'they lied about how much Indian they were'. I am lucky as I was able to prove the connection to my grandmother and get my C.D.I.B. and tribal membership even tho I don't look Choctaw at all. Tracing my family history has been so interesting! Carol

In my posting, I did not infer that ALL European names used by slaves were taken from slave owners nor was I talking about marriages in Colonial times. My reference was meant to be in the days of slavery. Owners of slaves did NOT marry the slaves even though children came of their relationship. When the slaves were referred to by name at all, they generally took the surname of the family that 'owned' them. Mobile Archdiocese records refer to some of the children of Louis LeFleau/LeFleur/LeFlore and "Becca" or "Becky Choctaw" (commonly believed by LeFlore family members to be Rebecca Cravat) as "quarteroons", meaning they were 1/4th Choctaw. There is NO evidence that either Louis or Rebecca had African blood. Both of Louis' parents were of French extraction. Rebecca was the daughter of Nahotima and Jean (John) Cravat(t). Her mother was Shumaka, a Chakchiuma, who assimilated into the Choctaw tribe. There is some disagreement among researchers as to the father of some of Shumaka's children - some say an unknown Choctaw, others a man named Roscoe Cole. Many of the marriages of Europeans and Choctaws were according to Choctaw traditions. No researcher, so far, has come up with marriage licenses for Louis and any of his 3 wives - all "Native Americans". Angelyn ------ Original Message ----- From: Barbara Ellison Sent: Thu, Aug 29, 2002 9:19pm To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] question The terms Octaroon and Quadroon referred to the amounts of African blood...And in Colonial times, Indians, Africans and whites intermarried freely...not only among the indentured servants, but also of free people with each other and with indentured servants... Sometimes slaves took the names of slave owners,but those would have been the first generation imported slaves I'd imagine...then after that their offspring would continue the name or change it..But as I said, there were marriages between Indians and Africans, Indians and whites, and Africans and whites before slavery as we know it happened..So not all european names of slaves were taken from the slave owners... Hope that helps.. B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANGELYN CUNNINGHAM" <angelync@msn.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 8:14 PM Subject: RE: [CHOCTAW-SE] question > Mulatto probably comes from "mulato", Spanish for 'of mixed blood'. > Didn't slaves take the surnames of the family that 'owned' them? Also, let's face it, folks, the male plantation owners had sexual 'relations' with the African women they owned and the offspring of those unions produced children who used their father's surname. There is, however, another explanation. In the 1700s, 'whites' marrying Indians had children who were referred to as, for instance, "quadroon", which meant they had 1/4th degree of Indian blood. > Angelyn > > ------ Original Message ----- > > From: AhSweet1@aol.com > Sent: Thu, Aug 29, 2002 7:49pm > To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] question > I have no idea of where 'Mulatto' came from. I was just surprised when I read > the census(1860(I think)) in Mississippi and found neighbors to my > ancestors(Trahern) with the same name but it said they were black. Now some > in Alabama with other ancestor's name(DeLoach) says they are 'M'. > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Got a PROBLEM?? Got a GRIPE?? Just wanna' WHINE?? Don't post it to the list. Write to me, the listowner, at CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Try Rusty Lang's website at http://www.choctaw-web.com for censuses, genealogy lessons, articles, etc. > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc.

Yes, Census takers were very prejudice against Native Americans you are right on that many the Choctaw and other Nations were listed as "MU"

Just beware that in the time period that censuses are available that it was not "cool" to be Native American. Many lied on the census for that reason or the census takers put down "W" or "B" some did "MU" rarely did the put "NA". If you find that your ancestor was listed other than what you expected, check other sources. DON'T GIVE UP on that name. Good Luck Kris

Yokokee Fay. I never thought about John as a surname. I'll check it out. Again, thanks. Lori

Slavery among the Indians BY Indians was not the same as slavery by europeans...before europeans came to our country, Indians would capture women and/or children from other Tribes and would make them part of their Tribe...they would become family.. It wasn't the spanish who ultimately took over our country (tho they did get part of it when they took over Mexico)..And after europeans came here, and when Indians captured some of them, they did not want to return to their original families when they had the chance...not so of Indians or Africans who were enslaved by europeans..Many Indian captives escaped and went home or into other Tribes, and many African captives escaped and went to the Indians for refuge... B. ----- Original Message ----- From: <JohnnyMikeCraven@aol.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Harper - Which SixTown location & other questions > In a message dated 8/29/2002 8:45:58 PM Central Daylight Time, > greybird7@pisp.net writes: > > > > > > I believe Indian slavery began with Columbus, (1400s) as he did steal many > > Indians and took them to Spain to sell as slaves...He sold as slaves those > > he could catch that would bring him the most money... > > In England before they came over here, the English would enslave only those > > who were non-christian, regardless of their race...and that carried over to > > here for a time, but around 1700 they began to change the indentured slaves, > > (Indian and African) into permanent slaves. > > A good site to read about it is: > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr3.html > > B. > > > > Slavery was practiced by Indians long before Columbus. Slavery was practiced > on every continent by every race amongst every people. > > The first to write against slavery were the popes beginning in 1435 > when Pope Eugene IV condemned making slaves of the Canary Islanders by some > of the Spanish. > > This condemnation carried over into the New World when in 1537 Pope > Paul III issued a series of papal documents condemning the unjust making of > slaves of Indians as well as Negroes and others under penalty of automatic > excommunication. > > Subsequent popes continued issuing papal documents condemning slavery > throughout the world and calling for restitution to those who had been > unjustly enslaved as early as 1591 by Pope Gregory XIV. > > In some parts of the world, such as amongst the Galla and Sidama > tribes of West Africa, slavery had such deep and ancient roots in the economy > of the people that voluntary slavery had become a form of currency amongst > these peoples. > > Despite the condemnation of many popes, slavery continued well into > the last century and it is still being practiced today in the Sudan by > Moslems against Christians. In the past it has been practised by Cambodians > against Laotians, by the Japanese during WWII against the Chinese, and, yes, > even by Indians against Indians both before and after Columbus. > > It was also possible under Spanish rule for a slave to buy his or her > freedom and it was even possible to buy the freedom of a slave yet to be > born. And you didn't have to be a Christian to buy your freedom under > Spanish rule. Nor were you necessarily given your freedom because you became > a Christian. > > It's very chic to blame one race for slavery but that isn't the truth. > The Human Race came up with the idea of slavery and practiced it amongst > every people and culture and race on earth. > > John Craven > New Orleans > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > DON'T FORGET OUR ARCHIVES. Got a question? Looking for ancestor's name? Check our archives at: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST > >

Harjo means "no name". That's why it is so common. Linda Evans

In a message dated 8/29/2002 7:55:57 PM Central Daylight Time, dustyc@microgear.net writes: > > John: > > Would this name perhaps be "Harjo", which is a fairly common name among the > Creeks and Cherokees. > > If I'm not absolutely senile, I think there is a list of Choctaws that > served under Jackson in the Battle of New Orleans in our archives somewhere. > > dusty > > Dusty, I took a closer look at the name's spelling with a magnifying glass. It looks like "Hanjo", possibly it could by "Haujo" but there is no "r" in the name. I count 17 names which end in "Hanjo". I would be interested in looking at the list that Andrew Jackson had from the Battle of New Orleans to compare the two and see if these are the same but I really don't think they are since the one I'm looking at is from 3 years after the Battle of New Orleans and were issued at a place called Fort Scott. Does anyone know where Fort Scott is located? I also came across a very detailed description of a burial mound in Sumner County, Tennessee, which had a detailed sketch of the mound and which was near Bledsoe's Lick. Have you ever heard of such a mound? It was with the Andrew Jackson papers on microfilm that I looked at recently. John Craven New Orleans

Just for the record... American Heritage Dictionary-mulatto 1. a person having one white and one Negro parent 2. any person of mixed Caucasion and Negro ancestry. {Spanish "mulato," young mule from "mulo" mule from Latin "mulus," mule} However, on some census, it was apparently used to indicate "color" and not necessarily a precise racial lineage. George Ann >From: "ANGELYN CUNNINGHAM" <angelync@msn.com> >Reply-To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [CHOCTAW-SE] question >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:14:12 -0500 > >Mulatto probably comes from "mulato", Spanish for 'of mixed blood'. >Didn't slaves take the surnames of the family that 'owned' them? Also, >let's face it, folks, the male plantation owners had sexual 'relations' >with the African women they owned and the offspring of those unions >produced children who used their father's surname. There is, however, >another explanation. In the 1700s, 'whites' marrying Indians had children >who were referred to as, for instance, "quadroon", which meant they had >1/4th degree of Indian blood. >Angelyn > >------ Original Message ----- > >From: AhSweet1@aol.com >Sent: Thu, Aug 29, 2002 7:49pm >To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] question >I have no idea of where 'Mulatto' came from. I was just surprised when I >read >the census(1860(I think)) in Mississippi and found neighbors to my >ancestors(Trahern) with the same name but it said they were black. Now >some >in Alabama with other ancestor's name(DeLoach) says they are 'M'. > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Got a PROBLEM?? Got a GRIPE?? Just wanna' WHINE?? Don't post it to the >list. Write to me, the listowner, at CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-admin@rootsweb.com > > >==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== >Need more CHOCTAW information?? Try Rusty Lang's website at >http://www.choctaw-web.com for censuses, genealogy lessons, articles, etc. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

In a message dated 8/29/2002 8:45:58 PM Central Daylight Time, greybird7@pisp.net writes: > > I believe Indian slavery began with Columbus, (1400s) as he did steal many > Indians and took them to Spain to sell as slaves...He sold as slaves those > he could catch that would bring him the most money... > In England before they came over here, the English would enslave only those > who were non-christian, regardless of their race...and that carried over to > here for a time, but around 1700 they began to change the indentured slaves, > (Indian and African) into permanent slaves. > A good site to read about it is: > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr3.html > B. > Slavery was practiced by Indians long before Columbus. Slavery was practiced on every continent by every race amongst every people. The first to write against slavery were the popes beginning in 1435 when Pope Eugene IV condemned making slaves of the Canary Islanders by some of the Spanish. This condemnation carried over into the New World when in 1537 Pope Paul III issued a series of papal documents condemning the unjust making of slaves of Indians as well as Negroes and others under penalty of automatic excommunication. Subsequent popes continued issuing papal documents condemning slavery throughout the world and calling for restitution to those who had been unjustly enslaved as early as 1591 by Pope Gregory XIV. In some parts of the world, such as amongst the Galla and Sidama tribes of West Africa, slavery had such deep and ancient roots in the economy of the people that voluntary slavery had become a form of currency amongst these peoples. Despite the condemnation of many popes, slavery continued well into the last century and it is still being practiced today in the Sudan by Moslems against Christians. In the past it has been practised by Cambodians against Laotians, by the Japanese during WWII against the Chinese, and, yes, even by Indians against Indians both before and after Columbus. It was also possible under Spanish rule for a slave to buy his or her freedom and it was even possible to buy the freedom of a slave yet to be born. And you didn't have to be a Christian to buy your freedom under Spanish rule. Nor were you necessarily given your freedom because you became a Christian. It's very chic to blame one race for slavery but that isn't the truth. The Human Race came up with the idea of slavery and practiced it amongst every people and culture and race on earth. John Craven New Orleans

Congradulations Marcia, it looks like you hit a gold mine of info about your family. I think you would have to contact the Congressional Historian to find out more about the bill that was introduced to benefit the descendents of John Harper. John Craven New Orleans

I am looking for information on John Moore and Nancy Folsom. They were probably married before 1790 as their son, Silas Ebenezer Moore, was born ca 1790. Other sons were Martin, Jesse, Simpson, and possibly Ussery and Dempsey. Nancy was supposed to be a full blood Choctaw but I would guess that she was half. They were in Ga., and then moved to Mississippi, as they were on the 1831 Mississippi Choctaw rolls. They elected to stay in Miss. I have seen info that says that some members of the Quaid family have been admitted to tribal rolls on this couple. Where were John and Nancy born, and who were their parents? I saw something that listed her parents as Jacob and Nancy Folsom, but I have been unable to find a Jacob. Is this the same line as Nathaniel and Edmund Folsom. I would assume it would be as I have found no other Indian Folsoms. I assume that they were married on the reservation, but being new to Indian research, did they have a marriage license or certificate? If I could find where they were married then I might be able to find their parents. I have been unable to find the Folsom family anywhere in Ga., Miss, or Alabama. Silas Moore was supposed too have been born in S.C., but Martin was born ca 1797 in N.C. I hope that someone has knowledge of this family. Joyce Moore

I have seen the name "John" as a surname in the Choctaw people. Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: <Lori0602h@aol.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Can Anyone Help Me With Term "Captain" > Unfortunately, I don't know my Captain John's surname. All I know is the > information in the case files that he was Choctaw and that he died when my > great great grandmother, Candis, his daughter, was 1 1/2 years old. Candis > was born in May 1852 in Mississippi. Does this help? > > Lori > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > DON'T FORGET OUR ARCHIVES. Got a question? Looking for ancestor's name? Check our archives at: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST >

<PRE>Yokoke!

Carol: "MU" for color does stand for mulatto. Lori

The terms Octaroon and Quadroon referred to the amounts of African blood...And in Colonial times, Indians, Africans and whites intermarried freely...not only among the indentured servants, but also of free people with each other and with indentured servants... Sometimes slaves took the names of slave owners,but those would have been the first generation imported slaves I'd imagine...then after that their offspring would continue the name or change it..But as I said, there were marriages between Indians and Africans, Indians and whites, and Africans and whites before slavery as we know it happened..So not all european names of slaves were taken from the slave owners... Hope that helps.. B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANGELYN CUNNINGHAM" <angelync@msn.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 8:14 PM Subject: RE: [CHOCTAW-SE] question > Mulatto probably comes from "mulato", Spanish for 'of mixed blood'. > Didn't slaves take the surnames of the family that 'owned' them? Also, let's face it, folks, the male plantation owners had sexual 'relations' with the African women they owned and the offspring of those unions produced children who used their father's surname. There is, however, another explanation. In the 1700s, 'whites' marrying Indians had children who were referred to as, for instance, "quadroon", which meant they had 1/4th degree of Indian blood. > Angelyn > > ------ Original Message ----- > > From: AhSweet1@aol.com > Sent: Thu, Aug 29, 2002 7:49pm > To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] question > I have no idea of where 'Mulatto' came from. I was just surprised when I read > the census(1860(I think)) in Mississippi and found neighbors to my > ancestors(Trahern) with the same name but it said they were black. Now some > in Alabama with other ancestor's name(DeLoach) says they are 'M'. > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Got a PROBLEM?? Got a GRIPE?? Just wanna' WHINE?? Don't post it to the list. Write to me, the listowner, at CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Try Rusty Lang's website at http://www.choctaw-web.com for censuses, genealogy lessons, articles, etc. > >

From what I understand, the term mulatto originally was derived from the word "mule", as Mulattos, as well as fullblood Indians and Africans, were basically considered to be work animals... I don't know of any instance where a mixed blood who did NOT have some African blood was called Mulatto... B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel benedict" <iceis7@worldnet.att.net> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] question > I read somewhere that choctaw and those that were mixed breeds were also > sometimes written in as Mulatto. Is this true? > > Patricia Johnson > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <AhSweet1@aol.com> > To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:08 PM > Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] question > > > > Thank you for the answer to my question. I know one on census I have > lists > > my ancestors as 'W' but next door is a family with the same surname but > > labeled as 'B'. > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > > Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW > Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc. > > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc. > >

I believe Indian slavery began with Columbus, (1400s) as he did steal many Indians and took them to Spain to sell as slaves...He sold as slaves those he could catch that would bring him the most money... In England before they came over here, the English would enslave only those who were non-christian, regardless of their race...and that carried over to here for a time, but around 1700 they began to change the indentured slaves, (Indian and African) into permanent slaves. A good site to read about it is: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr3.html B. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Lori0602h@aol.com> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Harper - Which SixTown location & other questions > Barbara: > > Your comments are very interesting about Indians being slaves. I know that > they were. However, how were they chosen? Did everything depend on being a > Christian? When did the Indian indenture slavery begin? > > Lori > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Try Rusty Lang's website at http://www.choctaw-web.com for censuses, genealogy lessons, articles, etc. > >

I have no idea of where 'Mulatto' came from. I was just surprised when I read the census(1860(I think)) in Mississippi and found neighbors to my ancestors(Trahern) with the same name but it said they were black. Now some in Alabama with other ancestor's name(DeLoach) says they are 'M'.

Yes, you will find this in many census in most southern states. You will also find FPC (free person of color)for Indians/mixed-bloods in the South who were living apart from the main tribe. Jackie----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel benedict" <iceis7@worldnet.att.net> To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] question > I read somewhere that choctaw and those that were mixed breeds were also > sometimes written in as Mulatto. Is this true? > > Patricia Johnson > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <AhSweet1@aol.com> > To: <CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:08 PM > Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] question > > > > Thank you for the answer to my question. I know one on census I have > lists > > my ancestors as 'W' but next door is a family with the same surname but > > labeled as 'B'. > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > > Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW > Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc. > > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Mailing List ==== > Try Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST pages at http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.html for CHOCTAW Muster Rolls, Orphans lists, censuses, land records, etc. > >