What I am hearing is that today in this country -- There are alien's who have correctly applied to be here and they have a Permit -- so while they are still alien's (not citizen's) they aren't illegal. (And there are alien's who don't have a permit (or visa) and they are illegal aliens.) I am assuming that if a non citizen was in the Nations with a permit, that the non citizen would still be called an intruder? Is this right? > These were Intruders in the truest sense, however, they did not have to be > illegal to be an intruder. > Doug > > Nalora wrote: > > > Doug, > > > > What do you call a non-citizen in a Nation without permission to be there? > > Someone who has not been established as a citizen of that Nation, nor has a > > permit allowing him to be in that Nation? > > > > What do you call a person who must be forceably removed from a Nation by > > ANOTHER Nation's police force? (Since the Indian Nations had no > > jurisdiction over US Citizens "intruding" in their territory, they had to > > PAY the US a "bounty" to have the US remove them.) > > > > What do you call a person who has complaint papers (Intruder papers) filed > > against them with a Nation's courts asking they be removed from that Nation > > as Intruders? > > > > I would call that an illegal alien, myself. > > > > Nalora > > > > ==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== > > Pushmataha County, Oklahoma -- > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~okpushma > > > ==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== > Looking for your Native American Ancestors in > Pushmataha County, Oklahoma? > Have a look -- http://www.rootsweb.com/~okpushma/

At 12:57 PM 3/20/00 EST, you wrote: >What I am hearing is that today in this country -- There are alien's who have correctly applied to be here and they have a Permit -- so while they are still alien's (not citizen's) they aren't illegal. (And there are alien's who don't have a permit (or visa) and they are illegal aliens.) > >I am assuming that if a non citizen was in the Nations with a permit, that the non citizen would still be called an intruder? Is this right? I have never seen a person with a permit to be in the Indian Nations CALLED an intruder once he had the permit in hand. When the intruder problem arose, there were many in the Nation that essentially were just THERE. Certainly, some that were put on the Intruder lists were there legally, but had not PROVED it yet to the authorities. In the compilations by Sharron, she includes many of the different ways in which a person was in the Nations, the various microfilms available to those seeking people in the Indian Nations BEFORE DAWES, and OUTSIDE OF DAWES, and people who had some kind of paperwork filed with the Indian Courts to establish themselves LEGALLY in the Nation. An analogy would be: A person who came to the US illegally, but once here establishes residency, goes through Emigration (the courts) and BECOMES legal. Another analogy from my own family: My great great grandfather hauled freight into Indian Territory from about 1870 to 1903, before about 1875, he did not need a permit to do this, he hauled goods to the various trading posts and forts---No problem. After the courts were finally getting it together in the Indian Nations he suddenly found himself hauling freight ILLEGALLY in the Nations til he got a permit to do so. There was also the added problem in the Indian Nations that the Indian Governments had NO JURISDICTION over US Citizens within their borders. Confused? Of COURSE YOU ARE. Not to go into an entire history of the Judicial systems in the Nations and the US here, but if you follow a time line from 1818 to about 1875 and watch what happened to the Territory, you can see how totally strange it must have been. At one time early on you had The United States, Indiana, Arkansas Territory, and the Indian Nations all overlapping jurisdiction!!! Holy smokes! Reminds one of some kind of keystone cops movie! Nanny-Nanny-boo-boo-you-can't-touch-me kind of thing. I could get long winded about this whole thing, and probably wax philosophical and get into some real trouble; but just an overview of the Judicial system in Oklahoma would answer your question, without you having to study Oklahoma History in depth. Here is the postive thing about it: With all those governments and courts there was a lot of paperwork, and maybe your kin is on one of those slips of paper. Another positive thing, was that our 1890 census was not burned! haha! (We weren't a state, and kept those censuses to ourselves--and there were many! 1890 census for Oklahoma Territory, 1890 Census for Choctaw Nation, 1895 Census Chickasaw Nation...there were CITY censuses to estabish the "Class of City"...just tons and tons and tons of papers...And in some cases....some far-seeing individual said: We need to preserve these records. How nice.) Gads. I did get long winded. scuse me. Nalora

GBBeckIII@aol.com wrote: > What I am hearing is that today in this country -- There are alien's who have correctly applied to be here and they have a Permit -- so while they are still alien's (not citizen's) they aren't illegal. (And there are alien's who don't have a permit (or visa) and they are illegal aliens.) I'm not sure I understand this but I think your right. > I am assuming that if a non citizen was in the Nations with a permit, that the non citizen would still be called an intruder? Is this right? This is true, any non-citizen was considered an intruder. This is evidenced by the permit lists that were made by the various counties. The term intruder should not be a negative term. The purpose of the intruder was to work the farms of the Indians in Indian Territory, after the Civil War. Many of the mixed-blood Indians had huge farms and ranches and needed help in planting and harvesting. Later they sharecropped. If you notice the farm owner usually had several farms and several renters. Some traders had National trader licenses and some had county licenses. I am working on a web page that answers some of the FAQs concerning life in Indian Territory. Doug