Hello, The county records have been microfilmed by the LDS. I don't know if it is all of them but I would say that, at least, Atoka, Jacks Fork, and Blue seem to be complete. Many others are there also but I have not looked at those closely. You will find them in the ' Subject ' file (fiche) box under the name of the Nation. As for the Choctaw Nation... most are written in English. Others are written in Choctaw and some are written in both languages. Those of you who have not found this treasure chest will probably be very surprised by the wealth of information found in the Subject file. While your there be sure to check out the ' Locality ' file under both the United States and Oklahoma (or any other place of your ancestors). These places are broken down by subject but I always urge people to scan through ALL of the fiche because often the subject you have in mind is not the same subject they had in mind. If you are looking for a book... did you know the LDS has microfilmed 6,000,000 of them? These can be found under the ' Title / Author ' file. In my lectures I call these 3 files "The best kept secret at the LDS, FHC." All 3 are together in a small file box, usually stuck over in a corner. Ask a volunteer to direct you. One more little hint... each volunteer is usually there only one day a week. Some of us have more experience in one area of research and some in another. When you are there, ask which day a volunteer, that would best be able to help you in the area that you are interested in, will be there. Good luck!!! Yours truly, David, on the Central Coast, California, USA At 06:52 AM 03/26/2000 -0600, you wrote: > Nalora thanks for the information on where to check the other >Indian tribes rolls. Do you perchance know if the LDS are going to >microfilm the county documents in Atoka county of which someone on the >list spoke about how the records were in a basement just going to waste >and were being eating by rats annd mice? > >Peace, >Slimey

Has everyone seen the Cherokee Trail of Tears site at: www.rosecity.net/tears/index.html it shows a nice painting, "The Trail of Tears, " Painting by Robert Lindneux in the Woolaroc Museum, Bartlesville, Oklahoma. also, if i can ever get my new pages uploaded, I am adding some nice artwork by Choctaw artist Norma Howard. check frequently. thanks Rusty Lang, rlang90547@aol.com Visit my website at: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~impson/index.htm <A HREF="http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~impson/">Click here: index.htm </A> Check out the Impson Surname Board at http://resources.rootsweb.com/surnames/i/m/IMPSON/ Subscribe to the Impson Mailing List at: IMPSON-L@rootsweb.com

Nalora thanks for the information on where to check the other Indian tribes rolls. Do you perchance know if the LDS are going to microfilm the county documents in Atoka county of which someone on the list spoke about how the records were in a basement just going to waste and were being eating by rats annd mice? Peace, Slimey ====================================    Message From: vashti@theshop.net (Nalora) Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 5:29pm To: CHOCTAW-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW] "Reservation" Reply to: CHOCTAW-L@rootsweb.com You can check most of the other Rolls at the Oklahoma History Center or at an LDS FHC. I am not sure if the LDS have ALL the various microfilms of the other tribes, but I know they have many. Right now the LDS is working in several counties here microfilming county documents. I have personally done some extensive searching through most of the rolls of the Iowa, Pottawatomi, Sac/Fox, Shawnee and Kickapoo at the OHS, and have seen most of the others there. The Iowa were very interesting. I have their roll here at home somewhere. It was so small I just made a copy of it. There were only 80 of them. Nalora

There's a little more to the story... This second marriage was in 1894. His first wife died before the 1896 Dawes commission or act or census went into effect, so although she was Choctaw, she was not on the roll. His own application was denied. ----- Original Message ----- >>>> Actually it raises the question as to whether he lost his tribal status when the first wife died, doesn't it? If he was Choctaw by Intermarriage, and she died, he would not then be an intruder...How interestingly complicated, eh? I have never asked that question before, maybe when I am at the OHS this week I will just go down and ask one of the experts!

YES!!!! dustyc@microgear.net -----Original Message----- From: Scott and Trisha Neal <sandtneal@netzero.net> To: CHOCTAW-L@rootsweb.com <CHOCTAW-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 7:21 PM Subject: [CHOCTAW] intermarriage >I'm curious as to whether or not intermarriage has ever been discouraged by any tribes--whether it be between tribes or with "intruders?" Is it now, to anyone's knowledge? Obviously, in some families, it would be frowned upon, but I mean as a more tribal wide >no-no. >Trisha > > >==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== >Please support wonderful & FREE genealogy on the internet. Join Rootsweb.com today! >

Thank you Carmen..well said..can I stay an play??? lol I remember those Indian dances too at my school!!! And oh the face paint they made us do??? Now my gramma never painted her face?? But the teacher said all Indians did??? And all indians this and that? and the war hoop cry they made us do??? wawawawawa???? Anyway, we walked around in the most rediculous paper costumes?? my gramma never wore those either!! Anyway, I thought your writing was right on!!! Nancy M. Cathey Tenhet A Gann/Threadgill decendent

Hi Trisha: Within the Indian (Native American) sides of my house, they do prefer marriages to our own people. Many relatives, who are 100% native, still dislike and don't trust white people, who they call "White eyes." But, those of we who have married people who are white (European Americans) are tolerated by making that choice. And, how many people in America, whose family came here a very long time, have pure European blood? Each Nation would like to keep the blood as pure as possible. Obviously, that doesn't work these days with people moving to areas were there are few, if any, 100% American Natives. You have to understand the feelings of those who are 100% Native, and, also, of we who have little European blood, if you've read your history and seen what the Europeans did to our people. Even, look at what the Europeans did when they went to other countries and took over. It wasn't a pretty picture, just like it isn't here. Our people did welcome those who came here from Europe, only to be raped of their land and their rights. And, to be white is to be supreme over anyone whose skin is a tad darker. Sad, but, true. Now, think about this. White people will lay on the beach all summer to get a super tan. Why? I've never figured that one out, though, I've been there, done it myself. With all the Native blood running through my veins, me skin is white. Another thing is that some 100% Native Americans have very white skin where the sun don't shine. And, some have beautiful blue eyes. But, you know, we are all God's children and we do need to forgive and forget and accept each human, no matter of their color, as a brother or sister. One of my e-mail friends sent me a cute genealogy thing on the fact that we ALL come from the Adam's family (Adam and Eve) and I feel that's true. God loves we all, so, we need to love others to the best of our ability. The intruder thing was in the past. So, I can't see that it should be a point of discussion now, as it does get some people all upset and they feel they have to defend their old ones for going to Indian Territory who should not have been there. Also, if you haven't done so, read some books on Indian Territory. I got three of them from my local library (inter-library loan) and they are real eye openers and give you more understanding of all of the HONEST people living in those times, Native, and white. They had a lot to put up with in having to deal with all of the outlaws that invaded the Territory, Native and European. Those old relatives were a tough and strong group of people to save their homes and their families from destruction! They all, Native and white, are to be admired! Tolerance is the key to getting along and, after ALL of these years, we all need to get into that mode of thinking! We are ALL equal in God's eyes, so, who are any of we to say someone is lesser in our eyes? Well, sorry to have gotten on my soap box. But, I wanted to give my thoughts on this subject. I don't think I've said anything to offend anyone. Hope not! Be happy and blessed be. Sandi :)

I grew up in Texas... many moons ago. My skin was dark. No one in my class ever said anything ....but the teachers some times did. I remember in 5th grade a teacher, Mrs. Harmond who was ancient at the time....had to be at least 60 years old... she really was a pill! She taught us "Indian Dancing" for the Spring Festival. She was a real ....well anyway she taught us "Indian Dancing". We had to get coat hangers and make a circle with them. So we could do the "Indian Dances". She told the entire class that I could do the dance the best because she knew that I was a "natural". WOW! You know how I felt! Well anyway folks and fellow "kin", let me say that after X years of this type of "un-politically" type of treatment....I have learned to roll with the "tide". My Cherokee grandmother always said that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never faze me". If we want to "join" society, we have to face the reality that "political correctness" is only a "crutch" not a where withall to hide behind! So somebody calls us a squaw or whatever. Our skin has to be thick! Look, we are "kin" let's say to heck with "whatever" pulls the strings of some....we have all experienced the wrath of some "dim wit" who does not deserve any recognition. If we hold all this inside, and "jump" at the least bit of "whatever", can anyone ever find their roots? Let us get on with trying to connect instead of letting our skin be too thin to connect with our kin. Sincerely, Carmen McDaniel Forbes

I'm curious as to whether or not intermarriage has ever been discouraged by any tribes--whether it be between tribes or with "intruders?" Is it now, to anyone's knowledge? Obviously, in some families, it would be frowned upon, but I mean as a more tribal wide no-no. Trisha

You are Choctaw by Adoption. 8) Actually it raises the question as to whether he lost his tribal status when the first wife died, doesn't it? If he was Choctaw by Intermarriage, and she died, he would not then be an intruder...How interestingly complicated, eh? I have never asked that question before, maybe when I am at the OHS this week I will just go down and ask one of the experts! Also, I too find I use the word "Nation" for the Indians of Oklahoma. I still think of the tribes here as "Nations". Hey, btw, did you see the headline of today's Oklahoman? hehe. If not look here: http://www.oklahoman.com/cgi-bin/shart?ID=466085&TP=getarticle Nalora

You can check most of the other Rolls at the Oklahoma History Center or at an LDS FHC. I am not sure if the LDS have ALL the various microfilms of the other tribes, but I know they have many. Right now the LDS is working in several counties here microfilming county documents. I have personally done some extensive searching through most of the rolls of the Iowa, Pottawatomi, Sac/Fox, Shawnee and Kickapoo at the OHS, and have seen most of the others there. The Iowa were very interesting. I have their roll here at home somewhere. It was so small I just made a copy of it. There were only 80 of them. Nalora

please unsub Seems like if everything we say isnt ethnicly(?) correct, or gramitically correct, or historically 100% acurate, or we beep when we should have bopped, we are chastized..I thought the Native American site would be a little more forgiving of us who did not grow up in or near a rez, or in a nation, but simply are one of the millions of lost tribe members, whose, mostly, grandmothers left the rez, or the nation, and marrried whites, and on and on and on. I am more blood % than alot of native american who have roll numbers, one site said to me, well if your ancestor did not stick it out on a rez, then quit trying to find a roll number from past...if they left, then you are not one of us!!!! So, be it... Bye, good luck... By the way I vote for evthing native american, but I guess us "non-roll members need to start our own forums, and quit trying to be part of yours..

What you said about > but I guess us "non-roll members need to start our own forums, and quit trying to be part of yours.. I bet you could approach RootsWeb with the idea and actually start such a list? Ronnie

Dear Jacque, Thank you so much. Your list, Markie's list, our list, my ancestors, your ancestors, our ancestors. To enjoy life, share it, to love your ancestors, share them also. We are all one family. Thank you for you love and support. Fay Jacque Hopkins Wolski wrote: > Hi Fay, > > Welcome back to the 'lists', mine and Markie's. Hope you are recovering > from your surgery and don't try to overdo on your transcribing. As someone > else said, Rome wasn't built in a day. > > Jacque > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fay Ratcliff <faynshep@telapex.com> > To: <CHOCTAW-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 3:10 PM > Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW] Mississippi Kin > > > If you find any of your Griffins in AL let me know. I'll check to see if > I > > have any info. > > Fay > > > > Nalora wrote: > > > > > At 03:46 PM 3/24/00 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Nalora, My maiden name is Griffin. Came from GA to AL then MS in 1939. > > > >Fay > > > > > > My great grandma was a Griffin. She is my "grumpy grandma." She was > grumpy > > > because she had arthritis, and was in a W/C by the time she was 40. > Anyway, > > > she was born in Corinth, Alcorn County MS, March 1880. Her parents are > > > William Ellis GRIFFIN and Clemminie PHILLIPS, both of Alcorn Co. MS, tho > > > William dies in Sharon, TN. > > > > > > Nalora > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== > > > Looking for your Native American Ancestors in > > > Pushmataha County, Oklahoma? > > > Have a look -- http://www.rootsweb.com/~okpushma/ > > > > > > ==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== > > Pushmataha County, Oklahoma -- > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~okpushma > > > > ==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== > OK Surname Registry - added yours? http://www.rootsweb.com/~oknames/ > Search 4 surnames - http://www.rootsweb.com/~okgenweb/search.htm

Hi Fay, This is Mama Hen as Markie so aptly puts it. I know that your life is built around the Choctaw lists and the people on them. That's what it's all about! The give and the take of so many friends is good. Just let the ladies and the gendlemen of the Choctaw and other lists baby you a little more and let you know how they feel about you! And d d d dats for Maarkkkieee too! LOL We need that side of love too! It's called the giving side and you ladies are not the only ones that need to do all of that. And, girl sit back and enjoy! It's your due! Help keep us the whole people that we are today. So welcome back, your turn to give again will come shortly!!!!! Don't get too tire by staying on the net to long at a time. Love Ellen

Nalora, I don't know exactly where I picked up the phrase, maybe Oklahoma History class in high school, but I have always referred to the tribes as Nations. My use of the term is really too inclusive I guess, since all of them were not self-governing, as you mention. I use the word, intentionally, as a term of respect for a proud, noble people. And this comes from and "Intruder", I suppose. I found a census microfilm at the library yesterday that listed the Henry Cummins I have been researching. He is listed on the 1910 Haskell County census as "white" and Lela, his second wife, also listed as "white". So the Choctaw blood was his first wife, Donia Crowder. It was darned inconsiderate of him to have my ancestry through the second marriage!! So that makes me an almost Choctaw, twice removed???LOL As 'Maxwell Smart' used to say, "Missed it by that much!" Can I still play with you guys??? Ronnie

Nalora how would one go about checking the Rolls and documents of other tribes that were on reservations here in Oklahoma? Do you know if any of the other tribes that were on reservations here in oklahoma have a National Archives that can be accessed to check for relatives that may be on those rolls. If any person on this list knows of such a web site would you please share it with the list. Peace, Slimey ====================================== Nalora wrote: I have often heard people use the word "Reservation" in reference to the Indians of Oklahoma, and it has always puzzled me. Most of the time it is used when someone is reciting a family oral history, "I was told my great great grandmother lived on a reservation in Oklahoma." I *think* the reason people say this is because the western tribes of the US had reservations, and so all Indians must have reservations. This is not completely true. The five civilized tribes had NATIONS. The tribes in Oklahoma that I KNOW had reservations are: Miami, Quapaw, Peoria, Wyandotte, Ottawa, Sac/Fox, Iowa, Pottawatomie, Kickapoo, Shawnee, Seneca, Cheyenne-Arapaho, Apache, Ponca, Osage, Commanche, and Kiowa. I am almost certain that the Indians in Oklahoma that were on Reservations were all the smaller tribes,(though I am only certain of the ones above) and not the Five Civilized tribes. My intent in telling you this, is that if you believe your family oral history contains truth that your ancestor was on a reservation, you should really check the rolls and documents of these other tribes, before you dismiss yourself from having Indian Ancestory in Oklahoma. I do have a list of all the addresses for all the Federally recognized tribes of Oklahoma if anyone needs an address or phone number. Here are the Tribes of Oklahoma: Absentee Shawnee Apache Caddo Cherokee Cheyenne-Arapaho Chickasaw Choctaw Citizen Band Potawatomi Commanche Delaware Tribe Delaware Nation Eastern Shawnee Fort Sill Chiricauhua/ Warm Springs Apache Iowa Kaw Kickapoo Kiowa Loyal Shawnee Miami Modoc Muscogee (Creek) Osage Otoe-Missouria Ottawa Pawnee Peoria Ponca Quapaw Sac and Fox Seminole Seneca-Cayuga Tonkawa United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma Wichita and Affiliated Wyandotte Yuchi-Euchee Nalora

Sandi You took the words right out of my mouth. These days you can't say anything because as soon as you do you upsetted SOMEONE and if you try to correct it than you upsetted SOMEONE else. There is no way to get around it. Doomed if you do and doomed if you don't. Whatever happen to free speech, can't say anything at all now. Everyone takes everything toooooooo seriously. BTW, welcome back Nalora, I have not used your services yet because been too busy on other stuff but I am sure I will use it sometime in the future so will be glad you will be there to help me when I need it. It is easy to see that you are much loved on this list and isn't that what we all want is to be loved. You go girl. Carol In a message dated 03/24/2000 3:27:06 PM Central Standard Time, CHOCTAW-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: << Hi J Moton and list members: We've been called Indians all our lives. So, for some, it's still hard to slip into the now politically correct way of speaking. We know we are Native Americans. But, maybe all would like to hear what I saw on CNN one evening dealing with this very painful "Political Correctness in speaking" thing, which to me is really a pain in the neck. A Japanese American comic was talking about the above. He said he found it dumb. One night he was doing his comic act on stage and the joke he told, all laughed at. His response was, "What do I know, I'm just a Japanese American!" Which got more laughter. Then, a white woman (European American?) in the audience stood up, very upset, and said "You are not a Japanese American, you are an Asian American!" She sat down huffily and this guy said "Well, lady, excuse me for insulting myself!" The audience roared with laughther, less the very offended woman. SHE was offended, the Japanese man was not! He thought she was TOO MUCH! Yes, things have come to the point of really stupid nitpicking! So, let's get over it and if someone on the list refers to being an Indian, others should not jump all over them! Love to all, Sandi :) >>

Hello....my ex-boyfriend's parents lived in an Indian home in McCurtain County, OK. They had a new home built a couple of years ago. It is a nice home. On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:21:41 -0600 Doug Barkley <genreser@intcon.net> writes: > You're right, Nalora, also, in the 1930s there were communities of > homes built in Eastern Oklahoma that were called reservations. One > such > "reservation" was built between McCurtain and Red Oak. The houses > were built in a particular style, square with a high pitched hip > roof and > had a chimney in the peak of the roof that could vent any of the > four rooms. They were called "reservation" houses. By the 50s many > of the > houses had been moved through out the area. They may have been > built by the WPA. > Doug > > Nalora wrote: > > > I have often heard people use the word "Reservation" in reference > to the > > Indians of Oklahoma, and it has always puzzled me. Most of the > time it is > > used when someone is reciting a family oral history, "I was told > my great > > great grandmother lived on a reservation in Oklahoma." I *think* > the > > reason people say this is because the western tribes of the US had > > reservations, and so all Indians must have reservations. This is > not > > completely true. The five civilized tribes had NATIONS. The tribes > in > > Oklahoma that I KNOW had reservations are: Miami, Quapaw, Peoria, > > Wyandotte, Ottawa, Sac/Fox, Iowa, Pottawatomie, Kickapoo, Shawnee, > Seneca, > > Cheyenne-Arapaho, Apache, Ponca, Osage, Commanche, and Kiowa. > > > > I am almost certain that the Indians in Oklahoma that were on > Reservations > > were all the smaller tribes,(though I am only certain of the ones > above) > > and not the Five Civilized tribes. My intent in telling you this, > is that > > if you believe your family oral history contains truth that your > ancestor > > was on a reservation, you should really check the rolls and > documents of > > these other tribes, before you dismiss yourself from having Indian > > Ancestory in Oklahoma. > > > > I do have a list of all the addresses for all the Federally > recognized > > tribes of Oklahoma if anyone needs an address or phone number. > > > > Here are the Tribes of Oklahoma: > > > > Absentee Shawnee > > Apache > > Caddo > > Cherokee > > Cheyenne-Arapaho > > Chickasaw > > Choctaw > > Citizen Band Potawatomi > > Commanche > > Delaware Tribe > > Delaware Nation > > Eastern Shawnee > > Fort Sill Chiricauhua/ Warm Springs Apache > > Iowa > > Kaw > > Kickapoo > > Kiowa > > Loyal Shawnee > > Miami > > Modoc > > Muscogee (Creek) > > Osage > > Otoe-Missouria > > Ottawa > > Pawnee > > Peoria > > Ponca > > Quapaw > > Sac and Fox > > Seminole > > Seneca-Cayuga > > Tonkawa > > United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma > > Wichita and Affiliated > > Wyandotte > > Yuchi-Euchee > > > > Nalora > > > > ==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== > > Your donations to RootsWeb makes OKGenWeb and this Choctaw list > possible. RootsWeb Gen. Data Coop. Box 6798 Frazier Park, CA > 93222 > > http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > > ==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== > OK Surname Registry - added yours? http://www.rootsweb.com/~oknames/ > Search 4 surnames - http://www.rootsweb.com/~okgenweb/search.htm >

Doug, Yes...I do realize that. But, there were artists back then...just as there are today. Events have been recorded (by drawings and/or paintings) since man was put on this planet. Or, by writing events...such as in the Bible. I am aware of the fact the cameras weren't available as they are today. I was wanting for Sherry (I think...) to find pictures of the land...that is on her aunt's property...and maybe post them on the web. I would love to be able to show my children what the land looks like today. I hope that you have a wonderful day. ........Mandy On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:04:57 -0600 Doug Barkley <genreser@intcon.net> writes: > Not to be obvious but does everyone understand that the Trail of > Tears of the > Five Civilized Tribes 1832-1838 was some 20 to 30 years before the > use of the > Camera. The camera was used primarily in the Studio until Matthew > Brady took > candid shots of the Civil War. Pictures of the Trail of Tears were > drawings > and paintings. > Doug > > > ==== CHOCTAW Mailing List ==== > Looking for your Native American Ancestors in > Pushmataha County, Oklahoma? > Have a look -- http://www.rootsweb.com/~okpushma/ >