Hi Jane, Looked at the film in Northwich Library for you, it's the only way at present - to look at the original microfilms ...... Anne dtr of William Spencer of Hartford, Labourer (of Ann Spencer of Hartford) and Catherine (of David and Emma Williams of Holliwell) born 17 MAY 1801 bap 31 MAY 1801 hope this helps, Elaine. Subject: [CHS] Images on FMP, help needed. I have tried to look at the baptismal record of Anne Spencer, baptised 1801 in St Helens, Witton, on Find My Past. The image loads OK and gives details of her father BUT the details for her mother are cut off. I have seen the original ( Dade) registers in the past and know they are very long but surely FMP would have filmed the whole record. Wouldn't they ??? Does anyone know how to get the full record on screen so I can find out Anne's maternal grandparents ? jane Cheltenham

<<snipped>> The image loads OK and gives details of her father BUT the details for her mother are cut off. I have seen the original ( Dade) registers in the past and know they are very long but surely FMP would have filmed the whole record. Wouldn't they ??? Does anyone know how to get the full record on screen so I can find out Anne's maternal grandparents ? <<snipped>> Unfortunately this is a well known problem with the Witton extended format registers. In some case the LDS filmed both left and right pages (of the double page entries) in one frame - no problem there. In other cases the LDS (who did all the filming) used two frames to cover the two pages. Unfortunately, where two frames were used, the LDS supplied index points only to the l/h page and as a result the r/h page cannot be accessed - not even on a browse. The first time I found this, I reported it as an error to FMP and they "mashed" the two frames together to provide one double-frame image. Since then I have had no success in reporting these problems, one FMP respondent even saying "If we haven't published the other frame it's because the suppliers (Chester Record Office) have asked us not to." You can try to report it, saying other pages are shown in other registers, otherwise you can only get hold of the film or pay Chester to do so... Sorry about this... Adrian PS - if anyone can update us on whether anybody is doing anything about this, we'd all be grateful.

Oh dear - another slip of the pen. Apologies. I'll start again: It should read, "I was already aware that navvies working with teams of horses ." and not "I was already aware that teams of navvies working with horses ." OK? Teams of horses were USED - not owned - by navvies building railways. I suspect that the vast majority of owners of these teams were the Railway Companies themselves. However, a need on a small scale might be met by local horse teams temporarily employed. Hard evidence of this, as opposed to anecdotal, is hard to come by. My research shows that many navvies were originally 'ag labs' and would be familiar with agricultural work with horses. After making a little money whilst navvying, they often returned to work on the land. Some found local women to settle down with leaving the building of the line to go on its merry way without them. But I digress . Ruth ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Railton" <railton.david@btinternet.com> To: "'Ruth J'" <ruthgenda@btinternet.com>; "'Cheshire'" <cheshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 8:56 AM Subject: RE: [CHS] Team Owner (Henry Jones) > Ruth, > > Team owners were not navvies. Navvies were labourers employed by others. > The > term comes from navigators, the original name given to the labourers who > dug > out the canals. Team owners were self- employed and owned their horses and > wagons. They may have been in a small way of business owning and operating > one wagon with a team of horses or they may have owned and managed a > number > of teams. > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: cheshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cheshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Ruth J > Sent: 22 November 2013 22:55 > To: Cheshire > Subject: [CHS] Team Owner (Henry Jones) > > Further to the recent mailings re Henry Jones, team owner, in Birkenhead > I've become curious about the occupational term. Googling hasn't been a > great deal of help but I did find postings that had been exchanged on > Rootsweb Lists a couple of years back but which had no final conclusion. > > I was already aware that teams of navvies working with horses became a > common sight in the newly developing industrial landscape of Georgian and > Victorian England. [Navvies are a current research interest of mine - > don't > ask.] But I hadn't heard the term 'Team Owner' used in this context. > > I searched Birkenhead Trade Directories and found the terms 'Team & Cart > Owners', 'Team Proprietors' and 'Team Contractors' used. They are listed > under headings such as 'Carmen' and 'Carters', Van Proprietors (including > furniture removers), Warehouse Owners and Forwarding Agents. > > But it was the addresses that were interesting. It showed that many were > set amongst coal-yards, railway offices, goods yards, manufacturing bases, > etc. So the teams would be composed of men and horses used in urban > industry of one kind or another and not in agriculture. > > Oh, and BTW, the entry for Henry Jones in Gore's 1894 Directory of > Liverpool > and Birkenhead reads: > > Jones Henry & Son, wheelwrights, team owners & contractors, 10 Waterloo > Place & 61 Tunnel road. > > > > His premises are in the same street/area as the railway station, coal > merchants, a shoeing smith and (what else) a beer retailer. > > > > Ruth > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CHESHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

I've had a look and see the problem, usually when an image is too large for one frame the next one has the missing side, but they don't here, you could try contacting FMP through the Report "image fault" button top right, but if that's the way the register was filmed there's not much they can do.  Vanessa  All records are subject to error. Let they without typo caste tea thirst scone! View my photostream at http://www.flickr.com/photos/snapshistory/ ________________________________ From: Jane Greenaway <rainbow.gen@gmail.com> To: cheshire@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013, 18:24 Subject: [CHS] Images on FMP, help needed. I have tried to look at the baptismal record of Anne Spencer, baptised 1801 in St Helens, Witton, on Find My Past. The image loads OK and gives details of her father BUT the details for her mother are cut off. I have seen the original ( Dade) registers in the past and know they are very long but surely FMP would have filmed the whole record. Wouldn't they ??? Does anyone know how to get the full record on screen so I can find out Anne's maternal grandparents ? jane Cheltenham ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHESHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

<< I don't think that "team" refers to the people employed by a team owner, but simply to the animals. >> Graham - point taken. I should have been more careful with my wording. I had in my mind the Jones family's 1891 Census entry which notes that Henry's two older sons are listed as Horse Drivers. So I imagined that he had at least two, and possibly several more, horses in his stable. (A funeral director ancestor of mine had 40!) I simply saw men and horses working together as a team - unlike todays Self-Drive Van hirings - and not that the men (drivers) were owned. Slip of the pen really - sorry. Ruth

Ruth, Team owners were not navvies. Navvies were labourers employed by others. The term comes from navigators, the original name given to the labourers who dug out the canals. Team owners were self- employed and owned their horses and wagons. They may have been in a small way of business owning and operating one wagon with a team of horses or they may have owned and managed a number of teams. David -----Original Message----- From: cheshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cheshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ruth J Sent: 22 November 2013 22:55 To: Cheshire Subject: [CHS] Team Owner (Henry Jones) Further to the recent mailings re Henry Jones, team owner, in Birkenhead I've become curious about the occupational term. Googling hasn't been a great deal of help but I did find postings that had been exchanged on Rootsweb Lists a couple of years back but which had no final conclusion. I was already aware that teams of navvies working with horses became a common sight in the newly developing industrial landscape of Georgian and Victorian England. [Navvies are a current research interest of mine - don't ask.] But I hadn't heard the term 'Team Owner' used in this context. I searched Birkenhead Trade Directories and found the terms 'Team & Cart Owners', 'Team Proprietors' and 'Team Contractors' used. They are listed under headings such as 'Carmen' and 'Carters', Van Proprietors (including furniture removers), Warehouse Owners and Forwarding Agents. But it was the addresses that were interesting. It showed that many were set amongst coal-yards, railway offices, goods yards, manufacturing bases, etc. So the teams would be composed of men and horses used in urban industry of one kind or another and not in agriculture. Oh, and BTW, the entry for Henry Jones in Gore's 1894 Directory of Liverpool and Birkenhead reads: Jones Henry & Son, wheelwrights, team owners & contractors, 10 Waterloo Place & 61 Tunnel road. His premises are in the same street/area as the railway station, coal merchants, a shoeing smith and (what else) a beer retailer. Ruth ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHESHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, I know I have before asked this question but was wondering, if SKS might be able to assist me. My question is, do I just to have a wee bit of patience and something will pop up? Would any one, please, know of a List for the whole of England, and, perhaps, one for Historic Archictitors (pardon me, my Thinking Cap is not working this morning) ? Might there be a List for any Lists for England? Is there anyone on this List who might know of anyone who might have this: Twiss JONES or even in their own trees, please? He buikt two buildings in Cork, Ireland in 1705 and 1710. I have tried to "read between the lines" but can not find anything there. Please, what am I missing? Is there a new Lister who might have something, please? I am, obviously, grasping at straws here. Twiss was b., I presume about 1680/85. I do not know anything more than what I have already mentioned above. This is my Brick Wall. I have been researching my TWISS family all over the world for about 15 years, now, and do not know everything due to a form of dyslexia and would appreciate it very much for any suggestions/comments as to which direction/s I might be able to go. This is a new area for me, so, this is why I am asking for help. Otherwise, I would be doing this on my own. Thank you for taking the time in reading this message. :) Shannah TWISS overthepond06@gmail.com Canada

Ruth - I don't think that "team" refers to the people employed by a team owner, but simply to the animals. The Oxford Dictionary defines a team as firstly a 'set' of draught animals: two or more oxen, horses, etc. harnessed to draw together, and by extension, the whole stock of horses (or other beasts) belonging to one owner or stable. This would still fit with the references you've found to contractors, vanmen, etc. Graham On 22/11/2013 22:55, Ruth J wrote: > Further to the recent mailings re Henry Jones, team owner, in Birkenhead I've become curious about the occupational term. Googling hasn't been a great deal of help but I did find postings that had been exchanged on Rootsweb Lists a couple of years back but which had no final conclusion. > > I was already aware that teams of navvies working with horses became a common sight in the newly developing industrial landscape of Georgian and Victorian England. [Navvies are a current research interest of mine - don't ask.] But I hadn't heard the term 'Team Owner' used in this context. > > I searched Birkenhead Trade Directories and found the terms 'Team & Cart Owners', 'Team Proprietors' and 'Team Contractors' used. They are listed under headings such as 'Carmen' and 'Carters', Van Proprietors (including furniture removers), Warehouse Owners and Forwarding Agents. > > But it was the addresses that were interesting. It showed that many were set amongst coal-yards, railway offices, goods yards, manufacturing bases, etc. So the teams would be composed of men and horses used in urban industry of one kind or another and not in agriculture. > > Oh, and BTW, the entry for Henry Jones in Gore's 1894 Directory of Liverpool and Birkenhead reads: > > Jones Henry & Son, wheelwrights, team owners & contractors, 10 Waterloo Place & 61 Tunnel road. > > > > His premises are in the same street/area as the railway station, coal merchants, a shoeing smith and (what else) a beer retailer. > > > > Ruth > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHESHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Further to the recent mailings re Henry Jones, team owner, in Birkenhead I've become curious about the occupational term. Googling hasn't been a great deal of help but I did find postings that had been exchanged on Rootsweb Lists a couple of years back but which had no final conclusion. I was already aware that teams of navvies working with horses became a common sight in the newly developing industrial landscape of Georgian and Victorian England. [Navvies are a current research interest of mine - don't ask.] But I hadn't heard the term 'Team Owner' used in this context. I searched Birkenhead Trade Directories and found the terms 'Team & Cart Owners', 'Team Proprietors' and 'Team Contractors' used. They are listed under headings such as 'Carmen' and 'Carters', Van Proprietors (including furniture removers), Warehouse Owners and Forwarding Agents. But it was the addresses that were interesting. It showed that many were set amongst coal-yards, railway offices, goods yards, manufacturing bases, etc. So the teams would be composed of men and horses used in urban industry of one kind or another and not in agriculture. Oh, and BTW, the entry for Henry Jones in Gore's 1894 Directory of Liverpool and Birkenhead reads: Jones Henry & Son, wheelwrights, team owners & contractors, 10 Waterloo Place & 61 Tunnel road. His premises are in the same street/area as the railway station, coal merchants, a shoeing smith and (what else) a beer retailer. Ruth

I have tried to look at the baptismal record of Anne Spencer, baptised 1801 in St Helens, Witton, on Find My Past. The image loads OK and gives details of her father BUT the details for her mother are cut off. I have seen the original ( Dade) registers in the past and know they are very long but surely FMP would have filmed the whole record. Wouldn't they ??? Does anyone know how to get the full record on screen so I can find out Anne's maternal grandparents ? jane Cheltenham

Hi Marg You can purchase the will from Cheshire Archives for 4 GBP plus postage 2.25 GBP, the advantage is that you can use a credit card whereas ordering from the Probate Registry has to be by Sterling cheque. http://archivedatabases.cheshire.gov.uk/RecordOfficeWillEPayments/search.aspx Andy -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Cambridge Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 10:09 AM To: CHESHIRE@rootsweb.com Subject: [CHS] Jones in Birkenhead Wow Andy. Don't know why I didn't come across that myself. It would be very interesting to get hold of a will as this could sort out a lot. Thank you very much. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada

Hi There is a probate as follows Henry Jones of Moss-hall, Woodchurch Lane, Prenton Birkenhead, team owner, died 11th August 1907, probate Chester 7th September to Walter Howat limited-companies clerk. Effects GBP 4743.8s.2d That could be were the Howat name comes from, he could be a relative or just a close friend. As far as the 1901 census is concerned we only see what the Enumerator wrote and not the actual Household Form so whilst Howard may be clear on the Enumerators Book it is only a transcription of another document. Andy >-----Original Message----- >From: Ruth J >Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:53 AM >To: Cheshire >Subject: [CHS] Jones in Birkenhead >Further to Joy's mailing re the 1911 Census entry which I couldn't find - >but now have: >191 Claughton Road, Birkenhead [5 roomed house] >Mary May Jones 38 Wid married 17 years 6 children born 3 living 3 >deceased >Charles Victor Jones son 18 Barman >Stanley Howat Jones son 16 Barman >Kathleen Elane Jones Daughter 10 >All born Birkenhead. >I found Charles Victor's baptismal certificate in the St Mary's Birkenhead >parish register saying that he was born on 22 Oct, baptised 6 Nov 1892. >Parents Henry & Mary Jones. 10 Waterloo Place, Team Owner. CV is also >registered in the GRO listings. OND qr 1892 8A 474. >I haven't found the other two children. Nor a marriage that matches >precisely the names and ages. But maybe someone else has. >The maths given on the 1911 doesn't add up! >btw HOWAT is a Scottish surname. >Maybe this helps! >Ruth

OK - one final one! Here is May HOWAT with her mother Mary HOWAT and brother Walter HOWAT (he of the mention in the will). 1891 Census Piece 2878 Folio 4 Page 1 225 Chester Street Birkenhead Charles Howat Head M M 56 Grocer Birkenhead Mary Howat Wife M F 58 Douglas Isle of Man Charles Howat Son S M 23 Engine Fitter Birkenhead May Howat Daughter S F 21 Birkenhead Walter Howat Son S M 18 Clerk Birkenhead Ethel Tyler Visitor F 4 Birkenhead I'm off to bed! Ruth

Andy, well done - I hadn't got as far as that yet. Hadn't even found Henry's death! Marg, you can also view the will on Findmypast and print it out from there. It is 3 pages long and Henry gives detailed instructions to his Trustees as to his businesses and his five sons - no mention of his daughter. Of course, you will need to take out a subscription. But, if you're researching families in Cheshire I would seriously consider doing that as FMP has the vast majority of Cheshire Parish Records all published on their website. Take out the longest subscription that you possibly can because you can obtain original documents for no further cost and it will, paradoxically, save you money in the end and you will have copies of original documents - not someone else's transcriptions (which are often doubtful). So when you are asked by friends and relatives 'What do you want for Christmas this year?' just tell them, 'A contribution towards a sub for FMP'. ;-) I want to make it clear that I have no financial interest in FMP; and I expect devotees of other websites will tell you otherwise. I'm only suggesting FMP for the ease of access to Cheshire records - it has been invaluable for me and keeps me happy for long periods of time. Thank you Marg for putting out your query. I've enjoyed the chase. Best wishes Ruth

Further to Joy's mailing re the 1911 Census entry which I couldn't find - but now have: 191 Claughton Road, Birkenhead [5 roomed house] Mary May Jones 38 Wid married 17 years 6 children born 3 living 3 deceased Charles Victor Jones son 18 Barman Stanley Howat Jones son 16 Barman Kathleen Elane Jones Daughter 10 All born Birkenhead. I found Charles Victor's baptismal certificate in the St Mary's Birkenhead parish register saying that he was born on 22 Oct, baptised 6 Nov 1892. Parents Henry & Mary Jones. 10 Waterloo Place, Team Owner. CV is also registered in the GRO listings. OND qr 1892 8A 474. I haven't found the other two children. Nor a marriage that matches precisely the names and ages. But maybe someone else has. The maths given on the 1911 doesn't add up! btw HOWAT is a Scottish surname. Maybe this helps! Ruth

Further to the information provided by Alan Henry Jones, 32 Widower, Joiner, 22 Derby St, Father, George Jones, Sawyer (deceased) Mary Howarth, 23 Spinster, 22 Derby St, Father, Charles Howarth, grocer (deceased) Witnesses; Alice Pritchard ,Henry Harding Crutchley. Regards Julie -----Original Message----- From: cheshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cheshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Cambridge Sent: 20 November 2013 16:09 To: Cheshire List Subject: [CHS] JONES of Birkenhead What a wonderful helpful list this is. I would like to thank Alan, Donna, Lynda, Les, Joy and Ruth for their interest and suggestions. I will order the marriage certificate of Henry JONES and Mary HOWARTH and hope that gives me the info I need. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHESHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wow Andy. Don't know why I didn't come across that myself. It would be very interesting to get hold of a will as this could sort out a lot. Thank you very much. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy" <andycandlish@ozemail.com.au> Hi There is a probate as follows Henry Jones of Moss-hall, Woodchurch Lane, Prenton Birkenhead, team owner, died 11th August 1907, probate Chester 7th September to Walter Howat limited-companies clerk. Effects GBP 4743.8s.2d That could be were the Howat name comes from, he could be a relative or just a close friend. As far as the 1901 census is concerned we only see what the Enumerator wrote and not the actual Household Form so whilst Howard may be clear on the Enumerators Book it is only a transcription of another document. Andy

Les, you are right. Evidence did/does have to be presented when an application to marry is made. I mentioned the possibility of a licence because, in my experience of researching, surviving recorded pre-1837 Bonds and Allegations show many licences were issued only because one of the parties had been married before. I married a widower in 1961and my husband had to obtain a licence. This was then given beforehand to the registrar who married us. After the signing of the register, I was presented with the marriage certificate. (I have the photograph to prove it!) Others may have different experiences. I'm not sure how it worked around 1900 - and in Birkenhead. The Cheshire Marriage licence bonds and allegations 1606-1905 Register is published in the original on FMP showing many Birkenhead licences issued - but there is no licence issued for Henry and May/Mary. I guess it simply rules an avenue out. Ruth

What a wonderful helpful list this is. I would like to thank Alan, Donna, Lynda, Les, Joy and Ruth for their interest and suggestions. I will order the marriage certificate of Henry JONES and Mary HOWARTH and hope that gives me the info I need. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada

Ruth said 3. . . . As Henry was a widower they would have had to have had a licence (I think) but there's no evidence of one. A widow/widower did/does not require a licence to marry; only evidence that their previous spouse has died ie their Death Cert. in which they will/would be named as the widow/widower of 'X' Regards Les Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device