Thank you Susan for such a great post, packed with lots of information that will be helpful to Don and many others! all the best, Beth Golden Decatur, GA On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:00 AM, <cherokeegene-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 15:30:56 -0500 > From: Susan Reynolds <s3js9938@gmail.com> > > Hello, Don! > > Looking at the posted family trees on this line, I'm inclined to take them > with a huge grain of salt. Some of them say Cherokee Land, Grant, > Minnesota. That looks suspiciously like it should read land grant in > Minnesota. Grant County MN was formed in 1868 and named for Ulysses S. > Grant. The city of Grant in Washington County, MN was also named for U.S. > Grant, so it was not formed until after the Civil War, unless it was simply > renamed. I can't find a history to confirm or deny. If he was born on a > land grant in MN, that would not have been an American grant. MN belonged > to the French at the time in question, so you would need to find where > their records for the area are archived - if any existed. I would think > they might be in Toronto. The French ceded this possession to Spain in > 1762. In 1783, the Treaty of Paris that ended the Revolution gave the part > of modern MN east of the Mississippi River to the United States. MN > reverted to French control and was then part of the Louisiana Purchase in > 1803. I haven't looked into what names applied under the Spanish and > French, so I can't tell you if they are different or not. > > If Nathaniel WILBER was Cherokee, it is highly unlikely he was born in MN. > In this area you should probably be looking at the Dakota, Ojibwe, or > Anishinaabe. An occasional Cherokee MIGHT have drifted into the area, but > the Cherokee domain was in the modern states of TN, GA, AL, NC, a little in > SC. Kat looks like the English nickname for Katherine, not a Cherokee name > (some of those trees show Kat as the Cherokee Chief and this would not have > been. The women's honorifics would have been Beloved Woman, possibly War > Woman, but not chief in that era). > > A lot of the mythological Cherokee genealogies give locations with modern > locations that did not exist at that time. One case in point is > Doublehead's birth place. Doublehead was born around 1744. In accounts of > the Yahoo Falls Massacre (that I have proven as fictitious with > documentation), his birth place is given as Stearns, McCreary County, KY. > Stearns did not exist until 1902 when Justus S. STEARNS founded it as the > company town for the Stearns Coal and Lumber Company in an area that was in > Wayne County at that time. McCreary County was formed in 1912 from > portions of Whitley, Pulaski, and Wayne Counties. It was KY's last > county. > > The Cherokee hunted in what is now KY, but did not actually live there (at > least by this time). Cherokee hunters did have long term camps there, > sometimes lasting a few years which groups of hunters rotated in and out > of, but no permanent towns. While there is an arguable case that > Doublehead could have been born there when his parents hunted in KY and > stayed in a camp where his mother birthed him away from home, this too is > unlikely. Women did not often accompany the hunters, except on occasion to > prepare food and perform women's tasks. A pregnant woman would not have > accompanied the hunters at all. Theda Perdue, in Cherokee Women: Gender > and Culture Change 1700-1835, pages 30-31, states that the Cherokees > believed pregnant women to be extremely powerful both naturally and > spiritually (what whites understand as powerful medicine!) and while they > did not go into seclusion as they normally did monthly, they still limited > their activities. They didn't go to ceremonies, visit sick people, observe > ball games. Cherokees avoided any paths pregnant women walked on and did > not eat anything the prepared. Their presence would have contaminated the > hunt. Perdue notes that evidence indicates their men also limited their > activities and did not fish, hunt, or even fight during their wives > pregnancies. Since Doublehead's father was Tifftoya of Tanassee, also > known as Willenawah or Great Eagle,this argues for Tanassee as Doublehead's > birth place. > > In 1720, the Cherokee had not yet converted to centralized government and > each town had its own chiefs - Peace or white chief and War or red chief. > In 1730, when he took seven representative Cherokee "headmen" to England to > meet George II, Alexander CUMMING had declared Moytoy emperor or King of > the Cherokees, but this was a European construct that did not accurately > depict Cherokee social and civil organization. It was strictly for > CUMMING's "diplomatic" purposes. The Cherokees did not coalesce into a > centralized form until the late 1780s and early 1790s. Even then, they did > not have elected chiefs until 1828, they had chiefs chosen more by > acclamation. Nathaniel WILBER could not have been Chief of the Cherokee > Nation because Cherokee Nation did not come into existence during his > lifetime and the position did not yet exist as far as the Cherokees were > concern, regardless of CUMMING's machinations. > > I don't find anything in the various records I have available, which are > many, that show any name close to WILBER that match yours. There was a > Nathan P. WILBER that married a Shawnee woman named Sarah H. "Dean" > BLUEJACKET in the Dawes Commission Records. They lived in Cherokee Nation > and appear on Cherokee by blood card 3312, although she was Shawnee. He > was white and born in 1848. There are two Wilber/Wilbur Eastern Cherokee > Applications, Lula and Lena Josie, but these are married names and they > were also born in the 19th century, not the 18th. Lula was from St. Louis > and Lena from Peters, TN. Lena's maiden name was LEDFORD and they have > Cherokee ties, but I don't have any details of just how at the moment. > > The closest name I find is in Jim Hicks's Cherokee Lineages website - > Wilburn - > > http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/i/c/James-R-Hicks-VA/BOOK-0001/0021-0033.html#IND70384REF23 > . > In 1788 Sarah Hicks, the daughter of Na-Ye-Hi CONRAD and Nathan HICKS > married a man surnamed WILBURN, given name unknown at this time. Sarah was > sister to Charles Renatus HICKS and William Abraham HICKS. Charles Renatus > was for some years Assistant Principal Chief. In early January 1827 > Principal Chief Pathkiller died and Charles R. HICKS rose to the Principal > Chief position. Sadly, he died 2 weeks later on 20 January 1827. William > Abraham HICKS, was also a chief, but not Principal Chief. He was defeated > by John ROSS in the election of 1828, the first under the Cherokee > Constitution of 1827. He never recovered from the defeat. > > Every family story has at least a kernel of truth buried in it somewhere. > I suspect the story of Nathaniel Wilber is wrapped up in Sarah HICKS's > story. It looks to me like the story MIGHT go this way: > Nathaniel WILBER (read this as WILBURN) was born in an unknown location > about 1720. Sometime between 1735 and 1745 he married a woman name Kat and > had a daughter named Frances Elizabeth about 1745 in Wayne County, TN (this > is outside the Cherokee domain) and a son sometime before 1756, when he > died in TN. This son then married Sarah HICKS, but there is no record of > any children born to them. He was not a chief, however, but brother-in-law > to chiefs. > > ?OR? > > ?Unknown given name WILBER (read this as WILBURN) was born in an unknown > location about 1720. Sometime between 1735 and 1745 he married a woman > name Kat and had a daughter named Frances Elizabeth about 1745 in Wayne > County, TN (this is outside the Cherokee domain) and a son sometime before > 1756, when he died in TN. This son then married Sarah HICKS, but there is > no record of any children born to them. Somewhere along the way, Sarah's > father's given name NATHAN became conflated with his son-in-law's father's > given name, as did her brother, Charles's position as Principal Chief. > ? > ?Of course, the Nathan P. WILBER on Cherokee card 3312 could also be the > source of the story. People often see only the cards and misunderstand > what they mean. Census card 3312 does not show that Sarah BLUEJACKET was > Shawnee. The card also does not indicate that Nathan P. WILBER was > originally accepted for enrollment by intermarriage and subsequently struck > from the rolls in 1907. This information is only found in the Dawes > Application Packet itself. > > Sadly, many of these stories are wishes rather than facts. > > BTW, I have OTTs in my line in AL, MS, that connect to my Tynes lines. If > you have people in these areas, feel free to contact me off list and I'll > be happy to chat about them. > > Kindest regards, > Susan Reynolds > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Don Ott via <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> > wrote: > > > Recent family research found Nathaniel Wilber 1720-1756, ?Cherokee > > Chief? born Land, Grant, Minnesota. His wife was called Kat. Not finding > > much on this line. Any help appreciated. > > Don > > > > ******************************************** >