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Thank you Susan for such a great post, packed with lots of information that will be helpful to Don and many others! all the best, Beth Golden Decatur, GA On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:00 AM, <cherokeegene-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 15:30:56 -0500 > From: Susan Reynolds <s3js9938@gmail.com> > > Hello, Don! > > Looking at the posted family trees on this line, I'm inclined to take them > with a huge grain of salt. Some of them say Cherokee Land, Grant, > Minnesota. That looks suspiciously like it should read land grant in > Minnesota. Grant County MN was formed in 1868 and named for Ulysses S. > Grant. The city of Grant in Washington County, MN was also named for U.S. > Grant, so it was not formed until after the Civil War, unless it was simply > renamed. I can't find a history to confirm or deny. If he was born on a > land grant in MN, that would not have been an American grant. MN belonged > to the French at the time in question, so you would need to find where > their records for the area are archived - if any existed. I would think > they might be in Toronto. The French ceded this possession to Spain in > 1762. In 1783, the Treaty of Paris that ended the Revolution gave the part > of modern MN east of the Mississippi River to the United States. MN > reverted to French control and was then part of the Louisiana Purchase in > 1803. I haven't looked into what names applied under the Spanish and > French, so I can't tell you if they are different or not. > > If Nathaniel WILBER was Cherokee, it is highly unlikely he was born in MN. > In this area you should probably be looking at the Dakota, Ojibwe, or > Anishinaabe. An occasional Cherokee MIGHT have drifted into the area, but > the Cherokee domain was in the modern states of TN, GA, AL, NC, a little in > SC. Kat looks like the English nickname for Katherine, not a Cherokee name > (some of those trees show Kat as the Cherokee Chief and this would not have > been. The women's honorifics would have been Beloved Woman, possibly War > Woman, but not chief in that era). > > A lot of the mythological Cherokee genealogies give locations with modern > locations that did not exist at that time. One case in point is > Doublehead's birth place. Doublehead was born around 1744. In accounts of > the Yahoo Falls Massacre (that I have proven as fictitious with > documentation), his birth place is given as Stearns, McCreary County, KY. > Stearns did not exist until 1902 when Justus S. STEARNS founded it as the > company town for the Stearns Coal and Lumber Company in an area that was in > Wayne County at that time. McCreary County was formed in 1912 from > portions of Whitley, Pulaski, and Wayne Counties. It was KY's last > county. > > The Cherokee hunted in what is now KY, but did not actually live there (at > least by this time). Cherokee hunters did have long term camps there, > sometimes lasting a few years which groups of hunters rotated in and out > of, but no permanent towns. While there is an arguable case that > Doublehead could have been born there when his parents hunted in KY and > stayed in a camp where his mother birthed him away from home, this too is > unlikely. Women did not often accompany the hunters, except on occasion to > prepare food and perform women's tasks. A pregnant woman would not have > accompanied the hunters at all. Theda Perdue, in Cherokee Women: Gender > and Culture Change 1700-1835, pages 30-31, states that the Cherokees > believed pregnant women to be extremely powerful both naturally and > spiritually (what whites understand as powerful medicine!) and while they > did not go into seclusion as they normally did monthly, they still limited > their activities. They didn't go to ceremonies, visit sick people, observe > ball games. Cherokees avoided any paths pregnant women walked on and did > not eat anything the prepared. Their presence would have contaminated the > hunt. Perdue notes that evidence indicates their men also limited their > activities and did not fish, hunt, or even fight during their wives > pregnancies. Since Doublehead's father was Tifftoya of Tanassee, also > known as Willenawah or Great Eagle,this argues for Tanassee as Doublehead's > birth place. > > In 1720, the Cherokee had not yet converted to centralized government and > each town had its own chiefs - Peace or white chief and War or red chief. > In 1730, when he took seven representative Cherokee "headmen" to England to > meet George II, Alexander CUMMING had declared Moytoy emperor or King of > the Cherokees, but this was a European construct that did not accurately > depict Cherokee social and civil organization. It was strictly for > CUMMING's "diplomatic" purposes. The Cherokees did not coalesce into a > centralized form until the late 1780s and early 1790s. Even then, they did > not have elected chiefs until 1828, they had chiefs chosen more by > acclamation. Nathaniel WILBER could not have been Chief of the Cherokee > Nation because Cherokee Nation did not come into existence during his > lifetime and the position did not yet exist as far as the Cherokees were > concern, regardless of CUMMING's machinations. > > I don't find anything in the various records I have available, which are > many, that show any name close to WILBER that match yours. There was a > Nathan P. WILBER that married a Shawnee woman named Sarah H. "Dean" > BLUEJACKET in the Dawes Commission Records. They lived in Cherokee Nation > and appear on Cherokee by blood card 3312, although she was Shawnee. He > was white and born in 1848. There are two Wilber/Wilbur Eastern Cherokee > Applications, Lula and Lena Josie, but these are married names and they > were also born in the 19th century, not the 18th. Lula was from St. Louis > and Lena from Peters, TN. Lena's maiden name was LEDFORD and they have > Cherokee ties, but I don't have any details of just how at the moment. > > The closest name I find is in Jim Hicks's Cherokee Lineages website - > Wilburn - > > http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/i/c/James-R-Hicks-VA/BOOK-0001/0021-0033.html#IND70384REF23 > . > In 1788 Sarah Hicks, the daughter of Na-Ye-Hi CONRAD and Nathan HICKS > married a man surnamed WILBURN, given name unknown at this time. Sarah was > sister to Charles Renatus HICKS and William Abraham HICKS. Charles Renatus > was for some years Assistant Principal Chief. In early January 1827 > Principal Chief Pathkiller died and Charles R. HICKS rose to the Principal > Chief position. Sadly, he died 2 weeks later on 20 January 1827. William > Abraham HICKS, was also a chief, but not Principal Chief. He was defeated > by John ROSS in the election of 1828, the first under the Cherokee > Constitution of 1827. He never recovered from the defeat. > > Every family story has at least a kernel of truth buried in it somewhere. > I suspect the story of Nathaniel Wilber is wrapped up in Sarah HICKS's > story. It looks to me like the story MIGHT go this way: > Nathaniel WILBER (read this as WILBURN) was born in an unknown location > about 1720. Sometime between 1735 and 1745 he married a woman name Kat and > had a daughter named Frances Elizabeth about 1745 in Wayne County, TN (this > is outside the Cherokee domain) and a son sometime before 1756, when he > died in TN. This son then married Sarah HICKS, but there is no record of > any children born to them. He was not a chief, however, but brother-in-law > to chiefs. > > ?OR? > > ?Unknown given name WILBER (read this as WILBURN) was born in an unknown > location about 1720. Sometime between 1735 and 1745 he married a woman > name Kat and had a daughter named Frances Elizabeth about 1745 in Wayne > County, TN (this is outside the Cherokee domain) and a son sometime before > 1756, when he died in TN. This son then married Sarah HICKS, but there is > no record of any children born to them. Somewhere along the way, Sarah's > father's given name NATHAN became conflated with his son-in-law's father's > given name, as did her brother, Charles's position as Principal Chief. > ? > ?Of course, the Nathan P. WILBER on Cherokee card 3312 could also be the > source of the story. People often see only the cards and misunderstand > what they mean. Census card 3312 does not show that Sarah BLUEJACKET was > Shawnee. The card also does not indicate that Nathan P. WILBER was > originally accepted for enrollment by intermarriage and subsequently struck > from the rolls in 1907. This information is only found in the Dawes > Application Packet itself. > > Sadly, many of these stories are wishes rather than facts. > > BTW, I have OTTs in my line in AL, MS, that connect to my Tynes lines. If > you have people in these areas, feel free to contact me off list and I'll > be happy to chat about them. > > Kindest regards, > Susan Reynolds > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Don Ott via <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> > wrote: > > > Recent family research found Nathaniel Wilber 1720-1756, ?Cherokee > > Chief? born Land, Grant, Minnesota. His wife was called Kat. Not finding > > much on this line. Any help appreciated. > > Don > > > > ******************************************** >

Hello, Don! Looking at the posted family trees on this line, I'm inclined to take them with a huge grain of salt. Some of them say Cherokee Land, Grant, Minnesota. That looks suspiciously like it should read land grant in Minnesota. Grant County MN was formed in 1868 and named for Ulysses S. Grant. The city of Grant in Washington County, MN was also named for U.S. Grant, so it was not formed until after the Civil War, unless it was simply renamed. I can't find a history to confirm or deny. If he was born on a land grant in MN, that would not have been an American grant. MN belonged to the French at the time in question, so you would need to find where their records for the area are archived - if any existed. I would think they might be in Toronto. The French ceded this possession to Spain in 1762. In 1783, the Treaty of Paris that ended the Revolution gave the part of modern MN east of the Mississippi River to the United States. MN reverted to French control and was then part of the Louisiana Purchase in 1803. I haven't looked into what names applied under the Spanish and French, so I can't tell you if they are different or not. If Nathaniel WILBER was Cherokee, it is highly unlikely he was born in MN. In this area you should probably be looking at the Dakota, Ojibwe, or Anishinaabe. An occasional Cherokee MIGHT have drifted into the area, but the Cherokee domain was in the modern states of TN, GA, AL, NC, a little in SC. Kat looks like the English nickname for Katherine, not a Cherokee name (some of those trees show Kat as the Cherokee Chief and this would not have been. The women's honorifics would have been Beloved Woman, possibly War Woman, but not chief in that era). A lot of the mythological Cherokee genealogies give locations with modern locations that did not exist at that time. One case in point is Doublehead's birth place. Doublehead was born around 1744. In accounts of the Yahoo Falls Massacre (that I have proven as fictitious with documentation), his birth place is given as Stearns, McCreary County, KY. Stearns did not exist until 1902 when Justus S. STEARNS founded it as the company town for the Stearns Coal and Lumber Company in an area that was in Wayne County at that time. McCreary County was formed in 1912 from portions of Whitley, Pulaski, and Wayne Counties. It was KY's last county. The Cherokee hunted in what is now KY, but did not actually live there (at least by this time). Cherokee hunters did have long term camps there, sometimes lasting a few years which groups of hunters rotated in and out of, but no permanent towns. While there is an arguable case that Doublehead could have been born there when his parents hunted in KY and stayed in a camp where his mother birthed him away from home, this too is unlikely. Women did not often accompany the hunters, except on occasion to prepare food and perform women's tasks. A pregnant woman would not have accompanied the hunters at all. Theda Perdue, in Cherokee Women: Gender and Culture Change 1700-1835, pages 30-31, states that the Cherokees believed pregnant women to be extremely powerful both naturally and spiritually (what whites understand as powerful medicine!) and while they did not go into seclusion as they normally did monthly, they still limited their activities. They didn't go to ceremonies, visit sick people, observe ball games. Cherokees avoided any paths pregnant women walked on and did not eat anything the prepared. Their presence would have contaminated the hunt. Perdue notes that evidence indicates their men also limited their activities and did not fish, hunt, or even fight during their wives pregnancies. Since Doublehead's father was Tifftoya of Tanassee, also known as Willenawah or Great Eagle,this argues for Tanassee as Doublehead's birth place. In 1720, the Cherokee had not yet converted to centralized government and each town had its own chiefs - Peace or white chief and War or red chief. In 1730, when he took seven representative Cherokee "headmen" to England to meet George II, Alexander CUMMING had declared Moytoy emperor or King of the Cherokees, but this was a European construct that did not accurately depict Cherokee social and civil organization. It was strictly for CUMMING's "diplomatic" purposes. The Cherokees did not coalesce into a centralized form until the late 1780s and early 1790s. Even then, they did not have elected chiefs until 1828, they had chiefs chosen more by acclamation. Nathaniel WILBER could not have been Chief of the Cherokee Nation because Cherokee Nation did not come into existence during his lifetime and the position did not yet exist as far as the Cherokees were concern, regardless of CUMMING's machinations. I don't find anything in the various records I have available, which are many, that show any name close to WILBER that match yours. There was a Nathan P. WILBER that married a Shawnee woman named Sarah H. "Dean" BLUEJACKET in the Dawes Commission Records. They lived in Cherokee Nation and appear on Cherokee by blood card 3312, although she was Shawnee. He was white and born in 1848. There are two Wilber/Wilbur Eastern Cherokee Applications, Lula and Lena Josie, but these are married names and they were also born in the 19th century, not the 18th. Lula was from St. Louis and Lena from Peters, TN. Lena's maiden name was LEDFORD and they have Cherokee ties, but I don't have any details of just how at the moment. The closest name I find is in Jim Hicks's Cherokee Lineages website - Wilburn - http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/i/c/James-R-Hicks-VA/BOOK-0001/0021-0033.html#IND70384REF23. In 1788 Sarah Hicks, the daughter of Na-Ye-Hi CONRAD and Nathan HICKS married a man surnamed WILBURN, given name unknown at this time. Sarah was sister to Charles Renatus HICKS and William Abraham HICKS. Charles Renatus was for some years Assistant Principal Chief. In early January 1827 Principal Chief Pathkiller died and Charles R. HICKS rose to the Principal Chief position. Sadly, he died 2 weeks later on 20 January 1827. William Abraham HICKS, was also a chief, but not Principal Chief. He was defeated by John ROSS in the election of 1828, the first under the Cherokee Constitution of 1827. He never recovered from the defeat. Every family story has at least a kernel of truth buried in it somewhere. I suspect the story of Nathaniel Wilber is wrapped up in Sarah HICKS's story. It looks to me like the story MIGHT go this way: Nathaniel WILBER (read this as WILBURN) was born in an unknown location about 1720. Sometime between 1735 and 1745 he married a woman name Kat and had a daughter named Frances Elizabeth about 1745 in Wayne County, TN (this is outside the Cherokee domain) and a son sometime before 1756, when he died in TN. This son then married Sarah HICKS, but there is no record of any children born to them. He was not a chief, however, but brother-in-law to chiefs. ​OR​ ​Unknown given name WILBER (read this as WILBURN) was born in an unknown location about 1720. Sometime between 1735 and 1745 he married a woman name Kat and had a daughter named Frances Elizabeth about 1745 in Wayne County, TN (this is outside the Cherokee domain) and a son sometime before 1756, when he died in TN. This son then married Sarah HICKS, but there is no record of any children born to them. Somewhere along the way, Sarah's father's given name NATHAN became conflated with his son-in-law's father's given name, as did her brother, Charles's position as Principal Chief. ​ ​Of course, the Nathan P. WILBER on Cherokee card 3312 could also be the source of the story. People often see only the cards and misunderstand what they mean. Census card 3312 does not show that Sarah BLUEJACKET was Shawnee. The card also does not indicate that Nathan P. WILBER was originally accepted for enrollment by intermarriage and subsequently struck from the rolls in 1907. This information is only found in the Dawes Application Packet itself. Sadly, many of these stories are wishes rather than facts. BTW, I have OTTs in my line in AL, MS, that connect to my Tynes lines. If you have people in these areas, feel free to contact me off list and I'll be happy to chat about them. Kindest regards, Susan Reynolds On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Don Ott via <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Recent family research found Nathaniel Wilber 1720-1756, “Cherokee > Chief” born Land, Grant, Minnesota. His wife was called Kat. Not finding > much on this line. Any help appreciated. > Don > =====*NOTICE THIS*===== > Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and > sort fact from (fiction). > List archive > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene > please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Recent family research found Nathaniel Wilber 1720-1756, “Cherokee Chief” born Land, Grant, Minnesota. His wife was called Kat. Not finding much on this line. Any help appreciated. Don

http://www.particlenews.com/n/02PO6IxA?s=t.3do

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3519372/Were-early-Americans- wiped-diseased-European-migrants-DNA-mummies-shows-native-genes-vanished-Spa nish-arrived-15th-century.html

Got it, just haven't had time to respond! On 3/14/16 3:52 PM, Dan Matney via wrote: > Just testing > Dan M > =====*NOTICE THIS*===== > Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and sort fact from (fiction). > List archive > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene > please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up". ~Pablo Picasso

Hi Susan,   My Bacon line (as far back as I have been able to prove) is as follows:     Direct Descendants of Charles Bacon 1 Charles Bacon, Wash Co.,TN ** b: Bef. 1790 in Tennessee d: Aft. 1844 in Madison County, AR . +Uratha Hale b: September 11, 1788 d: January 29, 1829 in Washington County, Tennessee m: Bef. 1818 .... 2 Mary C. Bacon b: 1807 in Tennessee d: 1879 in Nixa, Christian County, MO Burial: Bledsoe Cemetery, Christian County, MO ........ +John Lowery Bedsaul b: 1802 in Grayson County, VA d: 1877 in Nixa, Christian County. Burial: Bledsoe Cemetery, Christian County, MO m: October 27, 1827 in Washington County, Tennessee ........... 3 Sarah M. Bedsaul b: March 15, 1844 in Washington County, TN d: December 27, 1891 in Nixa, Christian County, MO ............... +Thomas Edison Beverage b: December 06, 1839 in Wayne Co, TN d: January 28, 1919 in Clever, Christian County, MO Burial: Wise Hill Cemetery, Christian County, MO m: December 06, 1863 .................. 4 Mary Ann " Mollie" Beverage b: March 24, 1867 in Christian County, MO d: September 03, 1940 in Nevada, Vernon County, MO Burial: Nevada State Hospital Cemetery, State Rd, Row BU, Column 2, Nevada, MO ...................... +John Jackson Lawson b: June 25, 1869 in Dade County, MO d: April 21, 1942 in Aurora, Lawrence County, MO Burial: Maple Park Cemetery, Aurora, Lawrence County, MO m: October 22, 1893 in Christian County, MO ......................... 5 Florence May Lawson b: April 01, 1896 in Greene County, MO d: December 10, 1943 in Vernon County, MO Burial: Misemer Cemetery, near Paris Springs, MO ............................. +William David Alsup b: August 11, 1893 in Vandalia, Ill d: March 27, 1957 in Mt. Vernon, MO Burial: Misemer Cemetery, near Paris Springs, MO m: October 02, 1913 in Mt. Vernon, MO ............................... 6 Pauline Elizabeth Alsup b: June 21, 1922 in Mt. Vernon, Lawrence Co., MO d: April 08, 1999 in Marietta, Cobb County, GA Burial: Kennesaw Memorial Cemetery, Marietta, GA ................................... +Jolly Friend Mayfield b: October 28, 1916 in Myron, Izard County, Arkansas d: June 16, 2000 in Batesville, Independence County, AR Burial: Bates Cemetery, Izard County, AR m: January 22, 1944 in Granada County, Mississippi ...................................... 7 Norma Jean Mayfield b: July 30,  in Ft. Smith, Sebastian County, Arkansas ================================================================================================================== Mary C Bacon was my 3rd great-grandmother.  Her siblings were:  Charles, b. 1805, John b. 1813, Hale b. 1818, Nancy May, b.1820,Talbert b. 1823,and Hilda Malinda, birth year unknown.  There seems to be a lot of information on Hale Bacon's line, and here is a note shared with me regarding is wife:   .  Katherine Lea b 1824, d after 1880, m Hale Bacon (b 1818 Washington Co TN) ca 1843 (will of William Lea who d ca 1847), shown in Madison Co AR Deed Bk A (originally acct ledger for AK Berry's store) 1859-60.  Deed to W T Sanders 1861, wit: RD Trout and James Hinds. 2a  Sarah Bacon b 1846 TN         2b  Hayman Bacon b 1848 AR         2c  Malissa Bacon b 1855 AR         2d  Mary Bacon b 1852 AR         2e  Drusilla Bacon b 1858 AR         2f  John Bacon b 1856 AR         2g  Margaret Bacon b 1851 AR         2h  Belle Bacon b 1865 AR   Also, an old note that I saved from another researcher:      Belle Wesson's great grandparents came from TN to Ok -grandparents then went to Evansville, AR Grandfather was 1/4 Cherokee. GGreatparents Hale Bacon and Catherine Lee -- Children: Amon  m Jim Cotton Jack Allen m Victoria Queen Mary Frances m Andrew Bateman Millsie m Halas Shannon Most of this came from notes taken by my now deceased cousin Runnel Tillery when she talked to Belle Wesson about 20 years ago. These folks to the best of my knowledge are not our family although they also have an indian link.  Linda Davis < honeychi@flash.net >           Hi, Jean! Tell us about your Bacon's.�  I have a distant cousin who is a Bacon descendant.�  I worked on a good portion of his research with him and have a large records set for Cherokee and Chickasaw Bacons, Gentrys, and others in this line.�  I also have Bacon records in my Cherokee Cheek research.�  States covered are TN. GA, OH, MS, AL, AR, NC, TX and, of course, the IT now OK�  Both sets of research eventually connect to Ambrose Harnage and are all mixed blood families but I haven't found a connection between the two sets - yet.�  The first set that includes the Gentrys connects to the Chickasaw Loves and Colberts, which in turn connects to Doublehead.�  They also have marriages into the Cherokee.�  I'm studying for a midterm this weekend, so don't be shy about prodding me if you don't hear back from me.�  Sometimes my mind runs away and hides under a bush when I study. Regards, Susan

Good Morning, Beth.   Thank you for the tip.  I have a photo of my great-grandmother's sister, in which she is this very tiny woman with strong Indian features, and dark skin.  Of all of her children, two of them carried the very dark Indian coloring, and stood out from the rest.  That's the only old photo that I have of that line.  My oldest son is what I would call a "throw back".  He was born with beautiful brown tone to his skin, and when he was 3 months old, my husband and I took a trip to Cherokee, NC where the two Indian ladies working in the museum asked me if he was Cherokee.  They said he looked just like a Cherokee baby.  He continues to be the dark one in the family, and turns 45 this Sunday.       I believe that I also have NA on Dad's side of the family, although I have not researched his side for it.  Strangely, both the Bedsaul ancestors on Mother's side of the family and Dad's ancestors on the Mayfield side of the family moved from the same district of Washington County, TN, one family to Madison County, AR and the other to Izard County, AR.  I suspect that they may have been a part of the same wagon train.  I am told about a hundred people made a trip by wagon train to AR. The wife was an Elizabeth Wright, either from VA or NC, depending upon Census data.  And, then throw in the fact that on the Alsup/Lawson/Beverage lines, it's believed that two of the wives (from Washington County, AR) were quite possibly Cherokee.  Who knows!  I have been so focused on the Bedsaul/Bacon side that I have not really done anything with those folks, leaving that research to my 1st cousin.   Anyway, thank you so much for your response!   Jean Mayfield Cuevas   Hi Jean, Another place to look for your ancestors is the National Archives https://www.archives.gov/research/native-americans/ It's a very helpful site. My Cherokee ancestry doesn't have a paper trail at this time, and likely will remain that way. From what I can gather from family letters dated long ago, census and birth records, etc., my 4th great grandmother Mary was Cherokee who lived in the IT of upstate SC in the 1700's. She married a white man John Bell and they family integrated into the white culture. With only her first name to go on, looking at the Rolls didn't help for me. Although there are a slew of Bell in the rolls, her last name wasn't Bell until she married. My autosomal DNA indicates Native American and the percentage is correct to substantiate that Mary was NA. My family and I are happy and proud with just knowing and not being card-carriers. wishing you all the best, Beth

Hi Jean, Another place to look for your ancestors is the National Archives https://www.archives.gov/research/native-americans/ It's a very helpful site. My Cherokee ancestry doesn't have a paper trail at this time, and likely will remain that way. From what I can gather from family letters dated long ago, census and birth records, etc., my 4th great grandmother Mary was Cherokee who lived in the IT of upstate SC in the 1700's. She married a white man John Bell and they family integrated into the white culture. With only her first name to go on, looking at the Rolls didn't help for me. Although there are a slew of Bell in the rolls, her last name wasn't Bell until she married. My autosomal DNA indicates Native American and the percentage is correct to substantiate that Mary was NA. My family and I are happy and proud with just knowing and not being card-carriers. wishing you all the best, Beth

I'm sorry, but if your ancestors did not live in the Cherokee Nation in the early 1800's, the odds are extremely low that any of them were Cherokee. The Cherokee were very interrelated and close to their families - they didn't move far away from them and Washington County is not near the Cherokee lands. White men who married Cherokee women stayed in the Cherokee Nation. Plain old-fashioned genealogy is the way to go - child to parent, parent to grandparent, back to the early 1800's. Intermarried whites may be found in land records and other official documents. The suggestions to read Dawes, Guion Miller, and Baker roll applications are excellent, as many applicants listed their families back to the beginning of the 19th century. Kathie Parks Forbes Message: 1 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 17:14:00 +0000 (UTC) From: Jean <jeanmayfield@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [CherokeeGene] came across this so i thought I'd share To: "Alli :)" <iamcheroke@gmail.com>, cherokeegene@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <1334190562.1192990.1455902040045.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Any idea how one goes about proving their Indian heritage when they did not?live in those areas where either the Trail Of Tears movement, or the Eastern Band of Cherokee lived??

I think Judy White can help with some suggestions. I also have the rolls digitized here . Its unfortunate they are not searchable, but a plan for the future is to solve that problem. Judy? Dan M

You are searching too far back in your ancestry. The oldest Cherokee roll that is available online is the 1835 roll. It's known sometimes as the Trail of Tears roll but because the names are short, sometimes a single name, it isn't often helpful unless you find the same ancestor on one of the successive rolls. During the time of the Dawes commission (around 1900) the tribe and government did most of this work for you. They sought out all Cherokee tribal members and information on their families. They cross-checked the names against previous Indian rolls, even when they were listed under different names ( many were). It was actually a very intensive and detailed search. Some Cherokee avoided being on this roll and the Dawes commission even paid people to come in and squeal on them and provide the information themselves if the individual couldn't be brought in person. Although this makes problems for some who cannot find an ancestor on the Dawes roll, it actually makes your quest easier because all this information that was obtained is still available in the "Dawes Packets". These contain everything from the questionining by the Dawes commission of Cherokee tribal members, their families, their neighbors, other witnesses, and also many contain letters that were sent to and from the commission. It is a treasure trove and it's all online.  Remember that nobody only has one Cherokee ancestor. If you had a Cherokee ancestor in the early 1800's but cannot find one on the Dawes roll, consider all the descendants from that ancestor who would eventually be on successive rolls. Some would clearly be mentioned by some in those Dawes packets. You can search them through Fold3.com which is only about $8 a month. You'd probably get everything you need done in a week or so. Search for your ancestors name. If they weren't living at the time of the Dawes it's very possible that someone mentioned them during the questioning by the Dawes commission and they will appear in your search results. It's exciting and very easy to do. Even people who were denied by the Dawes often provide important information in the Dawes packets that can be helpful. If you locate a sibling, cousin, uncle, or aunt of the ancestor you are looking for, it will often lead you to locate your own ancestor. It wasn't unusual for a Cherokee individual to go by a name that had little or no relationship to the name they are listed by on the Dawes. This is why the questioning by the commission and their own work in matching people to names is so helpful. If you only search for someone on the Dawes roll rather than in Dawes packets you may miss your opportunity for tribal citizenship because of what I've mentioned.  Research your family tree as extensively as you can so you have information on as many people in your extended family as possible. This will give you a much better chance of locating Cherokee ancestors.  It is best not to mention the term "Black Dutch" if you want serious help with your search. It has been appropriated by so many fraudulent people that it is now like waving a red flag if you mention it, even if your family did use this term. To prevent being dismissed right out of the gate as a fake, it's best to avoid that for now.  You cannot depend on those who may tell you there were no Cherokee in Tennessee or other places.The tribe may not have been at that location but there were families in places such as Duck Town, Tennessee where the large copper deposits were. Some of my own ancestors were from there and yet they are well documented on the Dawes and previous rolls. In addition, many people were separated from the tribe for various reasons but came back and connected around the time of the Dawes so they would get their portion of the land allotments. This is why you should concentrate your search efforts around this roll.   Good luck to  you.  On Friday, February 19, 2016 12:53 PM, Willora Glee via <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> wrote: You have to have a direct ancestor listed on the Dawes Roll. It was taken abt 1906 in Indian Territory now OK. You use birth certs, Marriage certs and death certs to prove this connection. My grandmother is on the Dawes roll. I used the above cets to prove a connection to her. My children also belong to the western band of the Cherokee nation. This Roll or census is on line so you need to look at it to see if you can find a direct descendant on that list. Hope this helps. I am proud to be a blood member of the Cherokee Nation. At 12:14 PM 2/19/2016, you wrote: >Any idea how one goes about proving their Indian >heritage when they did not live in those areas >where either the Trail Of Tears movement, or the >Eastern Band of Cherokee lived?  I have always >heard that we had Indian on my mother's side of >the family, and I have her ancestors traced back >to Washington County, TN from about 1810, and >further back for the Bedsaul line, to >Carroll/Grayson County.  If I went based upon >features, my mother had a strong look of >Indian.  Although her hair was black and her >eyes (from the Lawson side) were blue.  I have >been told that at the time my fourth >great-grandfather lived in Jonesborough, TN >area, it was an "Indian hunting >grounds".  There are a number of excavations >going on for Native America artifacts right now, >and at one time there was a Cherokee town >located nearby- late 1700's.  Older family >members said that my 2nd great-grandmother wore >her hair in a long braid down her back and was >dark-skinned.  I know her father was full >German, and records say that he only spoke >German.  His wife was a Bacon by birth.  I >have had contact with another descendant of >Mary's brother, and they also say they had >Native American.  I just cannot find any real >proof.  Of course, I know that it wasn't >popular to claim to be Native American at that >time period, among the Whites.  One thing my >mother always listed among her ancestors was >"Black Dutch".    Thanks.   Jean Mayfield >Cuevas ----- Original Message ----- From: ") >via" <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> To: >"CherokeeGene" <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> Sent: >Tuesday, January 26, 2016 1:25:21 AM Subject: >[CherokeeGene] came across this so i thought I'd >share http://cherokeegenealogy.blogspot.com/  >=====*NOTICE THIS*=====  Cherokee genealogy; >certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; >and sort fact from (fiction). List archive >http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene >please take non genealogy to >Cherokee@rootsweb.com >------------------------------- To unsubscribe >from the list, please send an email to >CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word >'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject >and the body of the message =====*NOTICE >THIS*===== Cherokee genealogy; certain >conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and >sort fact from (fiction). List archive >http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene >please take non genealogy to >Cherokee@rootsweb.com >------------------------------- To unsubscribe >from the list, please send an email to >CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word >'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message =====*NOTICE THIS*===== Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and sort fact from (fiction). List archive http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Any idea how one goes about proving their Indian heritage when they did not live in those areas where either the Trail Of Tears movement, or the Eastern Band of Cherokee lived?  I have always heard that we had Indian on my mother's side of the family, and I have her ancestors traced back to Washington County, TN from about 1810, and further back for the Bedsaul line, to Carroll/Grayson County.  If I went based upon features, my mother had a strong look of Indian.  Although her hair was black and her eyes (from the Lawson side) were blue.  I have been told that at the time my fourth great-grandfather lived in Jonesborough, TN area, it was an "Indian hunting grounds".  There are a number of excavations going on for Native America artifacts right now, and at one time there was a Cherokee town located nearby- late 1700's.  Older family members said that my 2nd great-grandmother wore her hair in a long braid down her back and was dark-skinned.  I know her father was full German, and records say that he only spoke German.  His wife was a Bacon by birth.  I have had contact with another descendant of Mary's brother, and they also say they had Native American.  I just cannot find any real proof.  Of course, I know that it wasn't popular to claim to be Native American at that time period, among the Whites.  One thing my mother always listed among her ancestors was "Black Dutch".    Thanks.   Jean Mayfield Cuevas ----- Original Message ----- From: ") via" <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> To: "CherokeeGene" <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 1:25:21 AM Subject: [CherokeeGene] came across this so i thought I'd share http://cherokeegenealogy.blogspot.com/  =====*NOTICE THIS*=====  Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and sort fact from (fiction). List archive http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Jean! Tell us about your Bacon's. I have a distant cousin who is a Bacon descendant. I worked on a good portion of his research with him and have a large records set for Cherokee and Chickasaw Bacons, Gentrys, and others in this line. I also have Bacon records in my Cherokee Cheek research. States covered are TN. GA, OH, MS, AL, AR, NC, TX and, of course, the IT now OK Both sets of research eventually connect to Ambrose Harnage and are all mixed blood families but I haven't found a connection between the two sets - yet. The first set that includes the Gentrys connects to the Chickasaw Loves and Colberts, which in turn connects to Doublehead. They also have marriages into the Cherokee. I'm studying for a midterm this weekend, so don't be shy about prodding me if you don't hear back from me. Sometimes my mind runs away and hides under a bush when I study. Regards, Susan On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Jean via <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Any idea how one goes about proving their Indian heritage when they did > not live in those areas where either the Trail Of Tears movement, or the > Eastern Band of Cherokee lived? I have always heard that we had Indian on > my mother's side of the family, and I have her ancestors traced back to > Washington County, TN from about 1810, and further back for the Bedsaul > line, to Carroll/Grayson County. If I went based upon features, my mother > had a strong look of Indian. Although her hair was black and her eyes > (from the Lawson side) were blue. I have been told that at the time my > fourth great-grandfather lived in Jonesborough, TN area, it was an "Indian > hunting grounds". There are a number of excavations going on for Native > America artifacts right now, and at one time there was a Cherokee town > located nearby- late 1700's. Older family members said that my 2nd > great-grandmother wore her hair in a long braid down her back and was > dark-skinned. I know her father was full German, and records say that he > only spoke German. His wife was a Bacon by birth. I have had contact with > another descendant of Mary's brother, and they also say they had Native > American. I just cannot find any real proof. Of course, I know that it > wasn't popular to claim to be Native American at that time period, among > the Whites. One thing my mother always listed among her ancestors was > "Black Dutch". > > Thanks. > > Jean Mayfield Cuevas > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ") via" <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> > To: "CherokeeGene" <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 1:25:21 AM > Subject: [CherokeeGene] came across this so i thought I'd share > > http://cherokeegenealogy.blogspot.com/ > > =====*NOTICE THIS*===== > Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and > sort fact from (fiction). > List archive > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene > please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > =====*NOTICE THIS*===== > Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and > sort fact from (fiction). > List archive > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene > please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You have to have a direct ancestor listed on the Dawes Roll. It was taken abt 1906 in Indian Territory now OK. You use birth certs, Marriage certs and death certs to prove this connection. My grandmother is on the Dawes roll. I used the above cets to prove a connection to her. My children also belong to the western band of the Cherokee nation. This Roll or census is on line so you need to look at it to see if you can find a direct descendant on that list. Hope this helps. I am proud to be a blood member of the Cherokee Nation. At 12:14 PM 2/19/2016, you wrote: >Any idea how one goes about proving their Indian >heritage when they did not live in those areas >where either the Trail Of Tears movement, or the >Eastern Band of Cherokee lived? I have always >heard that we had Indian on my mother's side of >the family, and I have her ancestors traced back >to Washington County, TN from about 1810, and >further back for the Bedsaul line, to >Carroll/Grayson County. If I went based upon >features, my mother had a strong look of >Indian. Although her hair was black and her >eyes (from the Lawson side) were blue. I have >been told that at the time my fourth >great-grandfather lived in Jonesborough, TN >area, it was an "Indian hunting >grounds". There are a number of excavations >going on for Native America artifacts right now, >and at one time there was a Cherokee town >located nearby- late 1700's. Older family >members said that my 2nd great-grandmother wore >her hair in a long braid down her back and was >dark-skinned. I know her father was full >German, and records say that he only spoke >German. His wife was a Bacon by birth. I >have had contact with another descendant of >Mary's brother, and they also say they had >Native American. I just cannot find any real >proof. Of course, I know that it wasn't >popular to claim to be Native American at that >time period, among the Whites. One thing my >mother always listed among her ancestors was >"Black Dutch".  Thanks.  Jean Mayfield >Cuevas ----- Original Message ----- From: ") >via" <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> To: >"CherokeeGene" <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com> Sent: >Tuesday, January 26, 2016 1:25:21 AM Subject: >[CherokeeGene] came across this so i thought I'd >share http://cherokeegenealogy.blogspot.com/  >=====*NOTICE THIS*=====  Cherokee genealogy; >certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; >and sort fact from (fiction). List archive >http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene >please take non genealogy to >Cherokee@rootsweb.com >------------------------------- To unsubscribe >from the list, please send an email to >CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word >'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject >and the body of the message =====*NOTICE >THIS*===== Cherokee genealogy; certain >conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and >sort fact from (fiction). List archive >http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene >please take non genealogy to >Cherokee@rootsweb.com >------------------------------- To unsubscribe >from the list, please send an email to >CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word >'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yep, there appear to be add's for some of the links....but no one says you have to buy anything. Just gives you more links & options & some people may not even be aware of any of what's posted. Its just another source for someone to check out. -----Original Message----- From: cherokeegene-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cherokeegene-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dan Matney via Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 9:51 AM To: cherokeegene@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CherokeeGene] came across this so i thought I'd share If you look deep into that link, they are using ADD's to make money off every one who clicks into the page. They are only writing this from known things we all have already learned, and are phishing for your money. You can find * free* help and researchers right here on this list. Dan On 01/25/2016 10:25 PM, ) via wrote: > http://cherokeegenealogy.blogspot.com/ > > =====*NOTICE THIS*===== > Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and sort fact from (fiction). > List archive > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene > please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =====*NOTICE THIS*===== Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and sort fact from (fiction). List archive http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Your welcome. I'm hoping it'll be helpful. I haven't finished looking at it, so wasn't positive :o) On Behalf Of Beth Golden via Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 2:28 AM To: cherokeegene@rootsweb.com Thanks! this looks like a very helpful blog. all the best, Beth

If you look deep into that link, they are using ADD's to make money off every one who clicks into the page. They are only writing this from known things we all have already learned, and are phishing for your money. You can find * free* help and researchers right here on this list. Dan On 01/25/2016 10:25 PM, ) via wrote: > http://cherokeegenealogy.blogspot.com/ > > =====*NOTICE THIS*===== > Cherokee genealogy; certain conversation is allowed to do genealogy; and sort fact from (fiction). > List archive > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cherokeegene > please take non genealogy to Cherokee@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHEROKEEGENE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >