Hi Joyce. Thanks. A bit of history first to connect everything... I have spent most of my lifetime working seriously on my family tree and started to work on dad's side back in '86. Since I come out of Oconostota's line on mom's side. This is were I get my Wolf Clan from. Over the years I have met quite a few of Dragging Canoe's descendents and learned from them as well. Some research and historical records report that Dragging Canoe is Oconostota's nephew... and that sorta fits my family's story that says that Oconostota's father was called "Little Owl". Little Owl is what we know him as and he may have a other names that I didn't write down or that they forgotten over time. White Owl Raven married Nancy Moytoy and were said to be Attakullakulla's parents. This is how White Owl Raven came into the Cherokee Nation. Little Owl is supposed to be kin of White Owl Raven, the Algonquin/Shawnee Medicine Man. Now, being that Dragging Canoe's father is Attakullakulla and ! he was supposed to be originally out of the Algonquin/Shawnee/Napuchee (old ones from Grandfather Mountain aka Lookout Mtn) area where he was taken on a raid. Some say that his father only took back one of his own in that raid. Interestingly enough... Dragging Canoe was said to have done the same thing with one of his children by one of his many women. I spell the ancient ones of Grandfather Mountain as Napuchee... because that is the way that I believed that I heard it way back then. Now, if one of Dragging Canoe's parents were in fact one of the Algonquin/Shawnee/Napuchees out of Grandfather Mountain and they were medicine people... then that makes sense since he was cured of Smallpox and bore the pockmarks all his life. Now, one of his kin was the Smallpox Conjurer of Settico. And this supports that Smallpox could be cured back then and we (Indians) knew the cure. I mentioned all of this to show the connection with Dragging Canoe and the Algonquins and Shawnees wh! o there at the Daniel Boone getting KY gathering. Dragging Canoe was a War Chief and was dead against this sale in the first place. So, he got his angst in when he passed along the curse. I bet he was smiling and said to himself... that'll fix ya for being greedy and taking our ancestral hunting grounds. It did because the settlers had a bad time of it there and like many left for greener pastures elsewhere. You have been posting for quite a while.. You will find reports that Dragging Canoe spoke the curse, he did not invent the curse... he was just passing on the curse in a warning. My guess is that this happened around 1775... http://www.scott.k12.va.us/history/priorto.html - "Treaty of Watauga"- (3/17/75) at Sycamore Shoals, Col. Richard Henderson, Daniel Boone, and over 1200 Cherokees meet to negotiate the purchase of a vast area of land in Kentucky. The decision to sell the land was not his, he like the others had to go along with it. Shortly after this, Dragging Canoe broke away in 1776 from the Cherokees and formed the Chickamauga Cherokees... and so did Oconostota. Dragging Canoe was a Red Chief aka War Chief... and so was Oconostota, although Oconostota was also a White Chief aka Peace Chief earlier under Attakullakulla. Some say that Oconostota died in 1778, while others say that he died in 1805. Boone was said to have traveled up and down through these lands here... starting here in PA where he was born and grew up. They say that he moved to NC when he was about 18. After that he started to explore the country and in 1769 he set off with 5 others to explore the regions of KY. Remember that way back when... PA was so big that it encompassed parts of MD and KY. Pennsylvania was known back then as Pennsyltucky. And, also back then it was supposed to be parceled out for a 14th state for the Miquons/Susquehannocks.and other Indians. And that added wood to the fire as well. I vaguely remember seeing Will Emory Jr's name in passing while doing Cherokee History research... so I did a google search to see what goes. Now I know why I remember him. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2006-04%2CGGLG%3Aen&q=%22William+Emory%22%2C+%22daniel+boone%22 Everything eventually does seem to make more sense once you start to fit all of the pieces together... like Will Emory Jr being married Mary Grant, daughter of Ludwig Grant. And Ludwig Grant.knew Attakullakulla. And, Emory also hung with the Shawnees. And, Ludwig Grant was said to have been one of the ones that convinced Attakullakulla along with 6 other young chiefs to visit England with Cumming... and so was came full circle to see how they all connected. Hope it helped. Dolores 'TwoWolvesDancing' Cobb Phifer aka Sparkle "Those who do not look upon themselves as a link connecting the past with the future do not perform their duty to the world" Daniel Webster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY / Shawnees, Miquons, Susquehannas, Susquehannocks > Delores > > THANK you so very much for a good post. It is few of our NA who so choose > to enlighten us about the old ways and what you have learned from the old > ones. Many of us researchers have to rely ONLY on what we can draw from > certain resources and just wonder about the other half of the story. It > takes some folks quite a while to realize that there is always more than one > side to every door and every issue. > > Just one question though. Would Dragging Canoe have been the leader to tell > Daniel Boone he could 'have' the land at Boonesborouh? If so it would > explain some things to me in my research. You see, William Emory Jr is > documented as having 2 encounters with Boone in KY. He is also known as > Will or Capt Will. Capt Will was born 1744 and resided in the Overhills > until at least 1762 when the first enounter is recorded with Boone. The > second is recorded in 1772. > > When was Dragging Canoe supposed to have made this decision? He was a War > Chief? Correct? > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TwoWolvesDancing" <twowolvesdancing@comcast.net> > To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY / Shawnees, Miquons, > Susquehannas, Susquehannocks 'Siyo. I haven't posted much lately, but felt to here... Cherokees in the very early days used KY as only for Hunting Grounds. They knew that KY was cursed. That is why Dragging Canoe had no problem giving KY to Daniel Boone and company... but told tem that they could have it. And, that this land was a"dark and bloody land" and that "it had a dark cloud over it". In my research and listening to some of the old ones that I learned that the curse came from the original peoples in that land that were merciless and bloody killers who were also cannibalistic in nature and much blood was shed on this land. That's why the Cherokees did not live there for too long of a period, but only used it for hunting. The Shawnees and Miquon/Minqua (the English called them Susquehanna because they lived along the Susquehanna River in PA, MD, and VA) The Shawnees and Miquons were their protectors. You will often find the Shawnees protecting their Cherokees) borders in exchange for protection. The Miquons protected any where... not just the border. Miquons were very tall (giants) warriors who came to fight, prepared to die. Miquon and Minqua and other variations of it's spelling along with Susquehanna and Susquehannocks and it's other variations of spelling, including Sasquahanna). Some called them Sasquatch because of this spelling. Some of my mom's side Cherokees came out of the north hills of NC and Wolf Town NC they moved into the lower part of KY. They only stayed a few generations before moving more north into MD. So, there were plenty of Indians in KY back in the early days. To set the record straight... Dragging Canoe did not curse KY before giving it to the whites... he was probably laughing to himself saying something like "if those stupid people want KY they can have it... we surely don't want it knowing what we have known for many, many generations." Cherokees did not curse for they knew the way/tradition that what goes around comes around... now cursing could come from individuals, but not in general. TN has been going out of their way to destroy any remains of the old Indian places and artifacts. They have destroyed mounds and old villages, covered up these places and old burial grounds with housing developments and business. Sitigo/Citigo/Settico is a prime example. One business man just covered the burial place with gravel just in case someone wants to gather the bones there on his place. One of the builders leveled an entire mound over night so that no one had time to get an injunction to stop him. Now that greed with one day come up and bite him in the you-know-what... if it hadn't already. Just some things that I have learned from Cherokee elders and historians as well as some Miquons. Hope this helps. Dolores 'TwoWolvesDancing' Phifer aka Sparkle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY There were NA in Kentucky....they just weren't Cherokee...Shawnee perhaps with others in their midst. It isn't assumed. Cherokee research shows no villages in what is now KY. I might suggest you read Mr. Worthy's "Chronicles of Border Warfare". It was written in 1830 and is reproduced in the original print. It may open the eyes of all NA researchers who tend to think that only the NA were abused. Unfortunately, it went both ways. Joyce Gaston Reece

Thank you so much. I may have been around for a long time but that certainly doesn't mean I'm unwilling to learn more so I highly appreciate your taking the time to post this information One small correction tho. William Emory (SR) is the one who married Mary Grant the dtr of Ludovic and Eugihooti. Will Jr was their eldest child. There is a stong verbal history that says that Will had both Creek and Cherokee children and we KNOW he ran with the Shawnee. I agree that there was a stong connection between Attakullakulla and those you mention. Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoWolvesDancing" <twowolvesdancing@comcast.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY / Shawnees, Miquons, Susquehannas, Susquehannocks / Dragging Canoe - a bit of history >

Hey Two Wolves Dancing. Not to cut in on your conversation with Joyce, but that was really facinating information. What advice do you have for others researching their Indian Ancestory? ----Original Message Follows---- From: "TwoWolvesDancing" <twowolvesdancing@comcast.net> Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY / Shawnees, Miquons, Susquehannas, Susquehannocks / Dragging Canoe - a bit of history Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:02:49 -0500 Hi Joyce. Thanks. A bit of history first to connect everything... I have spent most of my lifetime working seriously on my family tree and started to work on dad's side back in '86. Since I come out of Oconostota's line on mom's side. This is were I get my Wolf Clan from. Over the years I have met quite a few of Dragging Canoe's descendents and learned from them as well. Some research and historical records report that Dragging Canoe is Oconostota's nephew... and that sorta fits my family's story that says that Oconostota's father was called "Little Owl". Little Owl is what we know him as and he may have a other names that I didn't write down or that they forgotten over time. White Owl Raven married Nancy Moytoy and were said to be Attakullakulla's parents. This is how White Owl Raven came into the Cherokee Nation. Little Owl is supposed to be kin of White Owl Raven, the Algonquin/Shawnee Medicine Man. Now, being that Dragging Canoe's father is Attakullakulla and ! he was supposed to be originally out of the Algonquin/Shawnee/Napuchee (old ones from Grandfather Mountain aka Lookout Mtn) area where he was taken on a raid. Some say that his father only took back one of his own in that raid. Interestingly enough... Dragging Canoe was said to have done the same thing with one of his children by one of his many women. I spell the ancient ones of Grandfather Mountain as Napuchee... because that is the way that I believed that I heard it way back then. Now, if one of Dragging Canoe's parents were in fact one of the Algonquin/Shawnee/Napuchees out of Grandfather Mountain and they were medicine people... then that makes sense since he was cured of Smallpox and bore the pockmarks all his life. Now, one of his kin was the Smallpox Conjurer of Settico. And this supports that Smallpox could be cured back then and we (Indians) knew the cure. I mentioned all of this to show the connection with Dragging Canoe and the Algonquins and Shawnees wh! o there at the Daniel Boone getting KY gathering. Dragging Canoe was a War Chief and was dead against this sale in the first place. So, he got his angst in when he passed along the curse. I bet he was smiling and said to himself... that'll fix ya for being greedy and taking our ancestral hunting grounds. It did because the settlers had a bad time of it there and like many left for greener pastures elsewhere. You have been posting for quite a while.. You will find reports that Dragging Canoe spoke the curse, he did not invent the curse... he was just passing on the curse in a warning. My guess is that this happened around 1775... http://www.scott.k12.va.us/history/priorto.html - "Treaty of Watauga"- (3/17/75) at Sycamore Shoals, Col. Richard Henderson, Daniel Boone, and over 1200 Cherokees meet to negotiate the purchase of a vast area of land in Kentucky. The decision to sell the land was not his, he like the others had to go along with it. Shortly after this, Dragging Canoe broke away in 1776 from the Cherokees and formed the Chickamauga Cherokees... and so did Oconostota. Dragging Canoe was a Red Chief aka War Chief... and so was Oconostota, although Oconostota was also a White Chief aka Peace Chief earlier under Attakullakulla. Some say that Oconostota died in 1778, while others say that he died in 1805. Boone was said to have traveled up and down through these lands here... starting here in PA where he was born and grew up. They say that he moved to NC when he was about 18. After that he started to explore the country and in 1769 he set off with 5 others to explore the regions of KY. Remember that way back when... PA was so big that it encompassed parts of MD and KY. Pennsylvania was known back then as Pennsyltucky. And, also back then it was supposed to be parceled out for a 14th state for the Miquons/Susquehannocks.and other Indians. And that added wood to the fire as well. I vaguely remember seeing Will Emory Jr's name in passing while doing Cherokee History research... so I did a google search to see what goes. Now I know why I remember him. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2006-04%2CGGLG%3Aen&q=%22William+Emory%22%2C+%22daniel+boone%22 Everything eventually does seem to make more sense once you start to fit all of the pieces together... like Will Emory Jr being married Mary Grant, daughter of Ludwig Grant. And Ludwig Grant.knew Attakullakulla. And, Emory also hung with the Shawnees. And, Ludwig Grant was said to have been one of the ones that convinced Attakullakulla along with 6 other young chiefs to visit England with Cumming... and so was came full circle to see how they all connected. Hope it helped. Dolores 'TwoWolvesDancing' Cobb Phifer aka Sparkle "Those who do not look upon themselves as a link connecting the past with the future do not perform their duty to the world" Daniel Webster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY / Shawnees, Miquons, Susquehannas, Susquehannocks > Delores > > THANK you so very much for a good post. It is few of our NA who so choose > to enlighten us about the old ways and what you have learned from the old > ones. Many of us researchers have to rely ONLY on what we can draw from > certain resources and just wonder about the other half of the story. It > takes some folks quite a while to realize that there is always more than one > side to every door and every issue. > > Just one question though. Would Dragging Canoe have been the leader to tell > Daniel Boone he could 'have' the land at Boonesborouh? If so it would > explain some things to me in my research. You see, William Emory Jr is > documented as having 2 encounters with Boone in KY. He is also known as > Will or Capt Will. Capt Will was born 1744 and resided in the Overhills > until at least 1762 when the first enounter is recorded with Boone. The > second is recorded in 1772. > > When was Dragging Canoe supposed to have made this decision? He was a War > Chief? Correct? > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TwoWolvesDancing" <twowolvesdancing@comcast.net> > To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY / Shawnees, Miquons, > Susquehannas, Susquehannocks 'Siyo. I haven't posted much lately, but felt to here... Cherokees in the very early days used KY as only for Hunting Grounds. They knew that KY was cursed. That is why Dragging Canoe had no problem giving KY to Daniel Boone and company... but told tem that they could have it. And, that this land was a"dark and bloody land" and that "it had a dark cloud over it". In my research and listening to some of the old ones that I learned that the curse came from the original peoples in that land that were merciless and bloody killers who were also cannibalistic in nature and much blood was shed on this land. That's why the Cherokees did not live there for too long of a period, but only used it for hunting. The Shawnees and Miquon/Minqua (the English called them Susquehanna because they lived along the Susquehanna River in PA, MD, and VA) The Shawnees and Miquons were their protectors. You will often find the Shawnees protecting their Cherokees) borders in exchange for protection. The Miquons protected any where... not just the border. Miquons were very tall (giants) warriors who came to fight, prepared to die. Miquon and Minqua and other variations of it's spelling along with Susquehanna and Susquehannocks and it's other variations of spelling, including Sasquahanna). Some called them Sasquatch because of this spelling. Some of my mom's side Cherokees came out of the north hills of NC and Wolf Town NC they moved into the lower part of KY. They only stayed a few generations before moving more north into MD. So, there were plenty of Indians in KY back in the early days. To set the record straight... Dragging Canoe did not curse KY before giving it to the whites... he was probably laughing to himself saying something like "if those stupid people want KY they can have it... we surely don't want it knowing what we have known for many, many generations." Cherokees did not curse for they knew the way/tradition that what goes around comes around... now cursing could come from individuals, but not in general. TN has been going out of their way to destroy any remains of the old Indian places and artifacts. They have destroyed mounds and old villages, covered up these places and old burial grounds with housing developments and business. Sitigo/Citigo/Settico is a prime example. One business man just covered the burial place with gravel just in case someone wants to gather the bones there on his place. One of the builders leveled an entire mound over night so that no one had time to get an injunction to stop him. Now that greed with one day come up and bite him in the you-know-what... if it hadn't already. Just some things that I have learned from Cherokee elders and historians as well as some Miquons. Hope this helps. Dolores 'TwoWolvesDancing' Phifer aka Sparkle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY There were NA in Kentucky....they just weren't Cherokee...Shawnee perhaps with others in their midst. It isn't assumed. Cherokee research shows no villages in what is now KY. I might suggest you read Mr. Worthy's "Chronicles of Border Warfare". It was written in 1830 and is reproduced in the original print. It may open the eyes of all NA researchers who tend to think that only the NA were abused. Unfortunately, it went both ways. Joyce Gaston Reece ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429

Hi Joyce... any time. This is nothing new... keep in mind...and try to remember that in the old Cherokee ways... that the children belong to the mother's Clan. I am Chickamauga Cherokee Wolf Clan because of my mother's mother's Clan. Talk to your elders and old family members and beg them to share the old family names and stories... including animal favorites and nicknames that ran in the family. Traditionally... we from the Wolf Clan side have lots more wolf stuff around than my dad's side that had more bird and bear stuff around. They had more blue around for the Blue Holly Clan side. Back in the old days when dad's grandparents were younger... it wasn't cool to be Indian and in AR... you could loose your land if they found out that one or both were Indian. Dad's mother's mother was in one of those schools to take the Indian out of her... so they sorta hid it. At least obviously. Dad and his siblings were taught beading, but not too Native looking. His grandparen! ts were Herb/Medicine doctors in secret... they grew tobacco and herbs and sold them along with their other crops. Medicine People also came from his father's father's side. I grew up taking herbs, rather than meds. Check out the old photo albums and stash and check out the backs of photos on the walls for names, dates, and places. And, don't forget the old family bibles... these are goldmines. In one cousin's old family bibles it lists dad's mother's mother as a 'heathen'. Granny Smith was the one in that school that I mentioned earlier. Another thing that I found in my own family was that the mixedblood females do not have hardly anything recorded for them. Now that may not seem too odd... but for a family that can go back to Kent England in the 1200s... then having a few in between the Christian ones now seems odd... especially when you put the story with them that they were Indian. Just something to think about. Some people just appear out of no where. Where ! they given a Christian name and not recorded anywhere? Makes you wond er. And, sign on to the surname lists at the big genealogy sites... they are free. Hope this helps. Gotta run and start dinner. Dolores 'TwoWolvesDancing' (Cobb) Phifer aka Sparkle "Those who do not look upon themselves as a link connecting the past with the future do not perform their duty to the world" Daniel Webster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY / Shawnees, Miquons, Susquehannas, Susquehannocks / Dragging Canoe - a bit of history > Hey Two Wolves Dancing. Not to cut in on your conversation with Joyce, but > that was really facinating information. What advice do you have for others > researching their Indian Ancestory?