Norma: I know there was some "bad blood" between the Over Hill and the rest of the Nation but I am kind of proud of my gandfather on that side. I have an oral tradition that says that he decided to follow his mother's people when there was a split. He took his family and went to Missouri/Arkansas. It is debateable whether it would have been easier to stay and come when they were forced out ten years later. My father's grandmother were not Over Hill Cherokee. They were of the Panther or Painter Clan and took the name Panther/Painter so that they wouldn't marry in the Clan. My Over Hill g grandmother's name was Lonely Dove, I always loved the name, She didn't because she was always called Dovey. We have retained a few of the traditions only because my father's people were very traditional. We still pass property to the eldest daughter and the older women of the family have final say on who marries the daughters (this is a little looser these days but back 50 or 60 years ago it was pretty strict.) When my mother married my father she was (disowned?) because she didn't seek approval. I don't think my grandmother ever forgave her. They are both gone now so maybe they can work it out. Take Care Jerry White Eagle Spirit ---Norma wrote: > Jerry, I to am a decendant of the Over Hill Cherokee band. > WES-Norma > > >==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > >============================== >New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 > > > >

Mayve that's why I chose tents with screen around the top so I could always look at the sky. Except tof course when rain flap is needed lol ruth

I have three birth certificates all given to me by the gov.1 to go to school to =one for the army and in the last years an other one ==none are the same==don't hold me to any numbers==numbers are not important to me any more SHADOW BEAR

Hi Shadowbear, You are right, this is WEIRD, but they are mainly looking at the outside physical body and then they try to judge by the person's talents, and personalities. In a way, it is like a game of spelling bee, one is the winner and 2 runner ups and the rest lose. Tonya ----- Original Message ----- From: "shadowbear270" <shadowbear270@webtv.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 6:11 AM Subject: [Cherokee Circle] Boarding School > Tonya==This is weird but I don't like beauty pageants How does someone > say this person is better than the other or better looking==I think this > saying the Great Spirit made a mistake ==this can't be > > SHADOW BEAR > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429 > >

Hi Shadowbear, I don't understand how your wife's family liked noone that was Indian, her father was Indian, was her mother also Indian? I cannot believe that after all these years that your children who are adults now - still get ignored or followed around in stores - this is crazy! I am glad to hear that your wife hated noone and that your children are proud of their heritage and talk Cherokee, I would be so proud to be able to talk Cherokee. Do you have any grandchildren? Tonya ----- Original Message ----- From: "shadowbear270" <shadowbear270@webtv.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 6:02 AM Subject: [Cherokee Circle] broading school > Tonya=My wife hated no one== but her family liked no one that was > Indian==they went out of thier way to be mean==my wife was 1/4 > Cherokee==my kids want to be 100% they talk Cherokee better than I > can==they still get the treatment sorry this line is closed or they act > like you are not here or some one follows you all over the store==My > wife thought her father was the greatest==for her I guess he was noone > bothered her when he was alive==I forgot her family look very much > indian > > SHADOW BEAR > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > >

Tanya==We have been busy I have24grand kids=nowaround 30 gr-gr kids they don't all live here but I can sure keep busy sometimes==some live in Texas and some in around Chicago==We push it some times like head bands==feathers==I even have a tonto suit I wear==It is fun for us but for them they all most go nuts trying to watch those indians SHADOW BEAR

What is it that has her down so bad ? Dan M www.wvi.com/~wb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Genealogy_Chat ----- Original Message ----- From: "tsayonah" <mtndream@ix.netcom.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] Prayer Request > To Alli and all on the Cherokee Circle list, > Wado for the prayers. Tsayonah is a strong Cherokee woman but she is > very sick and we greatly appreciate all good thoughts and prayers. > donadagohvi, > Soquili ==============

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "shadowbear270" <shadowbear270@webtv.net> > To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:51 AM > Subject: [Cherokee Circle] Hair Cut > > > > Dan==Don't you think cutting you hair would be almost as bad as a man > > that beats his wife==a wife beater would have the clan on him==cutting > > your hair the rest of the village would be on you==Cutting your hair is > > telling every one about being a coward > > > > SHADOW BEAR > > =========================================> Well how about now ? Haircuts are required to keep many jobs. Dan M

Hi Shadowbear, I remember as a kid, in the summertime we would lay on the ground and look up at all the stars and see what kind of pictures the stars made. It was beautiful - sometimes we would see a picture of a dog, or tree, or whatever, but it was sooo peaceful and beautiful. Tonya ----- Original Message ----- From: "shadowbear270" <shadowbear270@webtv.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 4:28 AM Subject: [Cherokee Circle] Cherokee > I am sure you have heard of us doing this at or that==The Cherokee when > it got dark out he went to sleep he done nothing else==he would get up > early eat breakfast and then do his thing==war'hunting'fishing never at > night==at a council meeting you would lay back look up at the bright sky > and know just how lucky you are to be Cherokee==even the birds at this > time are very still==all those stars are for us and you would maybe > sleep looking up==just talking about feelings > > SHADOW BEAR > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > >

Hi Shadowbear, I am sorry about your father in law. But I am so glad that you are soo wise and God/Creator has helped you to have Love in your heart instead of hate. I wish everyone would seek this. I too have had love put into my heart - I did not always have this love in my heart until I asked God to help me. I feel really bad about the way things went for you in school and for others. I guess if you don't have the love in your heart then you don't really think about how you are hurting someone else's feelings nor do you care. I am soo glad that there are people that do CARE. I am sooo thankful that you are such a caring and loving and kind person. Shadowbear can I ask you a question? How did your wife feel about how her father was? Did she have hate in her heart or was she like you and learned to care? Did she have many brothers and sisters? Did you have relatives that went to that school that were like your father in law and was full of sadness? I think it helps for us to pray for those who have hate in their heart because they are sad and are hurting and they need our prayers and our love more than anybody. My prayers go out to anyone who is sad and hurt. Tonya ----- Original Message ----- From: "shadowbear270" <shadowbear270@webtv.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:50 PM Subject: [Cherokee Circle] HAIR CUT > Tonya==My father in law==hated his parents==he hit his kids with a razor > strop he hated the paper boy==hated every one and he blamed every body > for the time he spent in that school==he thought they were looking for > him till he died=could not talk with him==I was bad from the school but > I did recover it did take long time for me > > SHADOW BEAR > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > >

Shadow Bear, As kids we slept outside on the ground on a blanket, looking at the stars, shooting stars, meteor showers, feeling bugs whizzing our faces, the breeze, listening to the trees, feeling so small. I would hear the coyotes calling, a dog yelp, a hoot owl, whippoorwill, crickets, tree frogs. maybe a cow off in the distance. There was a pond nearby and we would hear a fish jump up and make a splash. Sometimes it would be so quiet you could hear the wind or the trees talk. My cousins and I would talk low, giggle, and then fall asleep. In the morning my face would be damp from the dew, my hair wet, the sun warm. We would get up and draw water from the spring and help fix the morning meal. Later on when we were older we would sleep up on the roof. Brin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: "shadowbear270" <shadowbear270@webtv.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 3:28 AM Subject: [Cherokee Circle] Cherokee >I am sure you have heard of us doing this at or that==The Cherokee when > it got dark out he went to sleep he done nothing else==he would get up > early eat breakfast and then do his thing==war'hunting'fishing never at > night==at a council meeting you would lay back look up at the bright sky > and know just how lucky you are to be Cherokee==even the birds at this > time are very still==all those stars are for us and you would maybe > sleep looking up==just talking about feelings > > SHADOW BEAR >

Tonya==This is weird but I don't like beauty pageants How does someone say this person is better than the other or better looking==I think this saying the Great Spirit made a mistake ==this can't be SHADOW BEAR

Tonya=My wife hated no one== but her family liked no one that was Indian==they went out of thier way to be mean==my wife was 1/4 Cherokee==my kids want to be 100% they talk Cherokee better than I can==they still get the treatment sorry this line is closed or they act like you are not here or some one follows you all over the store==My wife thought her father was the greatest==for her I guess he was noone bothered her when he was alive==I forgot her family look very much indian SHADOW BEAR

The goverment didn't start closing these places till just before ww2 you were still at war with the white man when they told you to go and shoot at other people ==they told you with the draft ==you remember==Uncle Sam Wants You SHADOW BEAR

I am sure you have heard of us doing this at or that==The Cherokee when it got dark out he went to sleep he done nothing else==he would get up early eat breakfast and then do his thing==war'hunting'fishing never at night==at a council meeting you would lay back look up at the bright sky and know just how lucky you are to be Cherokee==even the birds at this time are very still==all those stars are for us and you would maybe sleep looking up==just talking about feelings SHADOW BEAR

Barb, Here is what I know as told by those who lived it: They did not care who you were, or your feelings. They thought of our people as savages, dirt, slaves. Those that run those boarding schools treated native children worse than cur dogs. There were rare exceptions, but not many. The school cut their hair to change their 'look', took their clothes and burned them, would not allow them to speak their language, and changed their name. In some cases they were not allowed to visit or see their families, some never saw them again. Any resistance to the changes were met with beatings and punishment. Being mouthy might have got you killed at worst. Many tried to run away but most were caught and brought back and then treated worse than ever. If you wanted to live at all, you did as you were told. These accounts have been told to me by those who's families experienced these boarding schools. Some of these children were taken at the age of 5 yrs. old from their mother's arms, or older as they were away from their homes or village. They never made it back home to say goodbye. They lived in fear until they could finish the school or escape and many committed suicide. It was a bad time for a long time. The government still asserts control even today. We have to remember our heritage, our culture and preserve it as well as the environment we live in. We are all we have left and if we do not, we will end up as some bone in a cardboard box in a museum. That last sentence is my own personal opinion. Brin ----- Original Message ----- From: <EVERETTLATTIMORE@aol.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] Hair Cut > =============================================================== > This school sounds ugly. Did you have to go Shadow Bear. > I have heard of these schools. Did they think if they took your > physical identity you would no longer be Cherokee??? They didn't they > know they > cannot take a persons inner feeling of who they are??? Guess it is good I > didn't come up then, I would have got beat to death. Sometimes I am pretty > mouthy especially when it come to what I believe, and who I am. This is > to bad > your father in law was taught to hate so. Maybe, just before he crossed > his heart > changed back..... > Barb SC >

Shadow Bear, those are very hurtful times and many are still alive today who remember it and like you, your life was also changed from what it might have been because of your step dad's traumas. Some never did recover from such physical and emotional abuse (as your step dad). They were being punished for existing and they never did anything wrong or understood why they were treated that way. My heart cries for those souls and I pray they find peace now and before they cross the river. I am sorry for bringing up such memories and I almost did not send the post, but I felt is was more than just a 'hair cut' being talked about. I saw and understood the fun in the hair cut posts but also felt there should be something said about the hair being cut in the first place. It's our culture's history and people's life experiences. Sgi, for sharing how it was in your family. Brin ----- Original Message ----- From: "shadowbear270" <shadowbear270@webtv.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: [Cherokee Circle] Hair Cut > Brin==That school I will never foget ==First they cut your hair==take > you clothes and then start beating on you till you know thier talk==then > beat you for not saying sir or thank you on and on==the one thing you > learn is hate==my father-in-law hated every one he blamed his mother and > father for letting them take him==hated the school==hated everone at > that place he made his family toe the mark with a razor strop==hated > everything till he went across the river > > SHADOW BEAR

In a message dated 1/8/2006 9:05:19 PM Central Standard Time, Tjfuji@aol.com writes: Barbara, Got to love this spring like weather. However, it so dry the Cavanaugh Mountian or Sugar Loaf Mountain was on fire. I call it Sugar Loaf but the newbies in this area are correcting me and telling me Cavanaugh. I have heard Sugar Loaf Mountain but can't remember where it is, would you please tell me? Barbara In Oklahoma Native America

see i am just like you things of the spirit.dan is so practicle/.anna ----- Original Message ----- From: "White Eagle Spirit ---Norma" <NORMADREW@webtv.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] medicine bag > My medicine bags hold things that bring me fond memories, a beautiful > sea shell, a babys first tooth, a small delicate crystal, locks rom my > childrens hair, and other things. > When I feel sad or alone, I take these things out of my medicine bag > and look at them and remember all the good things that they represent. >

Barbara, Got to love this spring like weather. However, it so dry the Cavanaugh Mountian or Sugar Loaf Mountain was on fire. I call it Sugar Loaf but the newbies in this area are correcting me and telling me Cavanaugh.