Actually if you could tell me all the places the old nation was, I'd appreciate it. I know where some of it was, but it's hard cause sometimes places on records are referred to as the states they are now, or "indian territory", or old nation. I think old nation was areas east of mississippi river, such as tennessee, mississippi, arkansas, but I'm not sure of exact areas in these places, and I know there were other places too. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] MESSAGE FROM LEONARD PELTIER Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 13:41:46 -0500 If you get a current day map you will see the Little Tennessee River flowing from NC (heads up on Qualla Boundary) into east Tennessee. On this map you should see a dam on the river named Chilhowee. The village of Chilhowee stood very near that dam. Just down river from that was Citico then Chota. You can see an old map of the Grant Expedition of this area at www.rootsweb.com/~tnmcmin2 I think it is behind the Records icon. I may have put it on the Polk site also www.rootsweb.com/~tnpolk2 Check out the biographies while you are there. Anytime you have questions concerning the geographical subject of the eastern Cherokee I can, probably, help. I've lived right 'amongst' them all my life. Joyce Gaston Reece ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Actually you're right on. Quetzal-coatl (feathered serpent) was worshipped by all those nations. Including the one that existed in, I forget the name now, but the translation was "city of the gods", in current mexico where the pyramid of the sun and pyramid of the moon are. this was prior to all the other nations, but the aztecs (mexica) picked up this god in their attempt to merge with other nations they conquered by including those other nations gods. But the sacrificial offerings were not his thing, that started while worshipping I think it was "the Smoking Mirror", cause one thing Quetzal-coatl had said in a story was that when he returned the sacrifices would stop cause he didn't want to be worshipped that way. The reasons they had for the sacrifices are actually kind of interesting, please forgive me for refering to death as interesting...but they believed that the world had been destroyed 4 times before, and that the sun we had this time was a god who'd sacrificed himself to become the sun, but that this sun was faulty. This sun needed assistance to complete his travel across the sky each day. So those mothers who died in childbirth, warriors who died in battle, and those sacrificed would help accompany the sun across the sky. Also this was their version of the christian idea of "heaven", more literally to go to the heaven or sky. Of course the people the aztecs conquered didn't feel the same way about it. ;) The aztecs did also end up building their city upon a lake because all the other nations ended up telling them to move on. And they picked the lake because the had a prophecy that the sign of the new home would be where they found an eagle with a snake in its beak. I heard about a year ago the New York Metro. Museum of Art held an exhibition on (mexica) Aztec art, but it seemed to me a bit out of place. They had all the sacrifical images and gods they worshipped set up in the cold, modern museum, completely out of context. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Bettye Woodhull" <betron1@sbcglobal.net> Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] Glooscap Fights the Water Monster - Passamaquoddy Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 11:24:00 -0600 Lindsey, the paragraph where you mention the plumed serpent and feathered serpents sounds very similar to the "tales" or speeches given by one of our guides in the fall of 1967 about the 1300 & 1400 A.D. settling what is today central Mexico City. These early settlers were Incas, Mayas and Aztec whose predecessors came from the Russian area where the distance onto what is now Alaska is a very narrow point in the sea and they wandered all the way down thru what is now Canada, the United States and Mexico where they made their first permanent settlements and worshipped their Gods with sacrificial offerings of blood so that the moons would re-appear. Mexico City was founded on a "dry bed" of a lake where a serpent was found draped on a cactus- oh, it has been too many years ago to remember this story, its' just that your story sounds so similar. Bettye Woodhull ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:49 AM Subject: RE: [Cherokee Circle] Glooscap Fights the Water Monster - Passamaquoddy >Hey Blue Panther, >Are you familiar with the story about Uktena? >Maybe you've already told it, I haven't been on the list too long. > >I did a master's thesis this past fall comparing the NA creation stories to >Japanese stories, and Sumerian/Babylonian stories. It was really >interesting how similiar all these stories from all over the world were. >I thought that Uktena was very similar to the Sumerian/Babylonian Tiamat. >Tiamat was "the fresh water" and she was the "mother of all". She has also >been described as the dragon of the void, that the mountains are her ribs, >that she was too huge to be seen since she was integrated into the earth. >And also many NA creation stories talk about the mound of creation. In >Japan they do this too, they say creation began at a mountain. In >Sumerian/Babylonian creation stories they say that the Creators were first >seen coming down from a mountain. >Also the Japanese agree with the NA belief that the world has been >destroyed 4 times prior and that we are in the fifth world. I'm sorry I'm >not sure if this is a predominant NA belief or just specific to South >America, much of my research was done on the Mexica, Inca, and Maya. >All of these places, from Japan, here, and the Sumer/Babylonia, which is >present day Iraq, all have created ziggurats symbolizing this mound of >creation, or (specifically in Babylon, the names of ziggurats translated to >things like "place where heaven touches earth"). >I also did some research on Quetzal-coatal (I'm sorry if this is spelled >wrong, I don't have my research in front of me, and it has been a little >while) and Cortez. For those who don't know, Quetzal-coatal was a great >leader in much of South America, long before it was called America. >Quetzal-coatal (which means "feathered serpent" or "plummed serpent"), >strangely, had a fair complexion and red hair. He was defeated after a long >rule by, if I remember correctly, one whose name translated to "the Smoking >Mirror". They say that Cortez was mistaken for Quetzal-coatal because, when >Quetzal-coatal was defeated, he left on a boat made of serpents and headed >east saying he would return. Cortez, of course had the fair skin and redish >hair, and arrived on a ship with a similar description. >I often wonder if Quetzal-coatal wasn't perhaps Asian, due to his >description and the description of the ship he left on. Plus, if I remember >correctly, and forgive me if I don't, I think the stories said he wasn't a >native of this area, that he had come from somewhere else. >His description also matches Northlanders like the later Vikings. Now >Vikings kind of have gotten a bad rap over the years for being invaders and >"barbarians", but their discovering more and more evidence that the Vikings >came to attack other lands due to their own repression by other lands. > >This is of course if you believe that the ancients all over the world had >the ability to travel across the ocean and such. I really don't believe >archaelogists give them enough credit. Just because we can't find ancient >ruins of WOODEN inventions and the like, doesn't mean that they hadn't >existed. I mean, come on, they're wooden. Anyhoo, there's my shpeel. >Thoughts? Comments? Questions? I'd love to pick your brains :) . > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: "Blue Panther" <blue_panther@otelco.net> >Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [Cherokee Circle] Glooscap Fights the Water Monster - >Passamaquoddy >Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:13:07 -0600 > >Glooscap Fights the Water Monster - Passamaquoddy > >Glooscap yet lives, somewhere at the southern edge of the world. He never >grows old, and he will last as long as this world lasts. Sometimes Glooscap >gets tired of running this world, ruling the animals, regulating nature, >instructing people how to live. Then he tells us: "I'm tired of it. >Good-bye; I'm going to make myself die now." He paddles off in his magic >white canoe and disappears in mist clouds. But he always comes back. He >cannot abandon the people forever, and they cannot live without him. > >Glooscap is a spirit, a medicine man, a sorcerer. He can make men and women >smile. He can do anything. Glooscap made all the animals, creating them to >be peaceful and useful to humans. When he formed the first squirrel, it was >as big as a whale. > >"What would you do if I let you loose on the world?" Glooscap asked, and >the squirrel attacked a big tree, chewing it to pieces in no time. "You're >too destructive for your size," Glooscap said, and remade him small. > >The first beaver also was as big as a whale, and it built a dam that >flooded the country from horizon to horizon. Glooscap said, "You'll drown >all the people if I let you loose like this." He tapped the beaver on the >back, and it shrank to it's present size. > >The first moose was so tall that it reached to the sky and looked >altogether different from the way it looks now. It trampled everything in >its path -- forests, mountains, everything. "You'll ruin everything," >Glooscap said. "You'll step on people and kill them." Glooscap tapped the >moose on the back to make it small, but the moose refused to become >smaller. So Glooscap killed it and recreated it in a different size and >with a different look. In this way Glooscap made everything as it should >be. > >Glooscap had also created a village and taught the people there everything >they needed to know. They were happy hunting and fishing. Men and women >were happy making love. Children were happy playing. Parents cherished >their children, and children respected their parents. All was well as >Glooscap had made it. > >The village had one spring, the only source of water far and wide, that >always flowed with pure, clear, cold water. But one day the spring ran dry; >only a little bit of slimy ooze issued from it. It stayed dry even in the >fall when the rains came, and in the spring when the snows melted. The >people wondered, "What shall we do? We can't live without water." The wise >men and elders held a council and decided to send a man north to the source >of the spring to see why it had run dry. > >This man walked a long time until at last he came to a village. The people >there were not like humans; they had webbed hands and feet. Here the brook >widened out. There was some water in it, not much but a little, though it >was slimy, yellowish, and stinking. The man was thirsty from his walk and >asked to be given a little water, even if it was bad. > >"We can't give you any water," said the people with the webbed hands and >feet, "unless our great chief permits it. He wants all the water for >himself." > >"Where is your chief?" asked the man. > >"You must follow the brook further up," they told him. > >The man walked on and at last met the big chief. When he saw him he >trembled with fright, because the chief was a monster so huge that if one >stood at his feet, one could not see his head. The monster filled the whole >valley from end to end. He had dug himself a huge hole and damned it up, so >that all the water was in it and none could flow into the stream bed. And >he had fouled the water and made it poisonous, so that stinking mists >covered it's slimy surface. > >The monster had a mile-wide, grinning mouth going from ear to ear. His dull >yellow eyes started out of his head like huge pine knots. His body was >bloated and covered with warts as big as mountains. > >The monster stared dully at the man with his protruding eyes and finally >said in a fearsome croak: "Little man, what do you want?" > >The man was terrified, but he said: "I come from a village far down-stream. >Our only spring ran dry, because you're keeping all the water for yourself. >We would like you to let us have some of this water. Also, please don't >muddy it so much." > >The monster blinked at him a few times. Finally he croaked: >Do as you please, >Do as you please, >I don't care, >I don't care, >If you want water, >If you want water, >Go elsewhere! > >The man said, "We need the water. The people are dying of thirst." > >The monster replied: >I don't care, >I don't care, >Don't bother me, >Don't bother me, >Go away, >Go away, >Or I'll swallow you up! > >The monster opened his mouth wide from ear to ear, and inside it the man >could see the many things that the creature had killed. The monster gulped >a few times and smacked his lips with a noise like thunder. At this the >man's courage broke, and he turned and ran away as fast as he could. > >Back at his village the man told the people: "Nothing can be done. If we >complain, this monster will swallow us up. He'll kill us all." The people >were in despair. "What shall we do?" they cried. > >Now, Glooscap knows everything that goes on in the world, even before it >happens. He sees everything with his inward eye. He said: "I must set >things right. I'll have to get water for the people!" > >Then Glooscap girded himself for war. He painted his body with paint as red >as blood. He made himself twelve feet tall. He used two huge clamshells for >his earrings. He put a hundred black eagle feathers and a hundred white >eagle feathers in his scalp lock. He painted yellow rings around his eyes. >He twisted his mouth into a snarl and made himself look ferocious. He >stamped, and the earth trembled. He uttered his fearful war cry, and it >echoed and re-echoed from all the mountains. He grasped a huge mountain in >his hand, a mountain composed of flint, and from it made himself a single >knife sharp as a weasel's teeth. > >"Now I am going," he said, striding forth among thunder and lightening, >with mighty eagles circling above him. Then Glooscap came to the village of >the people with webbed hands and feet. > >"I want water," he told them. Looking at him, they were afraid. They >brought him a little muddy water. "I'll think I'll get more and cleaner >water," he said. Glooscap went upstream and confronted the monster. "I want >clean water, " he said, "a lot of it, for the people downstream." > >Ho! Ho! >Ho! Ho! >All the waters are mine! >All the waters are mine! >Go away! >Go away! >Or I'll kill you! > >"Slimy lump of mud!" cried Glooscap. "We'll see who will be killed!" > >They fought. The mountains shook. The earth split open. The swamp smoked >and burst into flames. Mighty trees were shivered into splinters. The >monster opened it's huge mouth wide to swallow Glooscap. Glooscap made >himself taller than the tallest tree, and even the monster's mile-wide >mouth was too small for him. Glooscap seized his great flint knife and slit >the monster's bloated belly. From the wound gushed a mighty stream, a >roaring river, tumbling, rolling, foaming down, down, down, gouging out for >itself a vast, deep bed, flowing by the village and on to the great sea of >the east. > >"That should be enough water for the people," said Glooscap. He grasped the >monster and squeezed him in his mighty palm, squeezed and squeezed and >threw him away, flinging him into the swamp. Glooscap had squeezed this >great creature into a small bullfrog, and ever since, the bullfrogs' skin >has been wrinkled because Glooscap squeezed so hard. > >Retold from nineteenth-century sources > >Reposted with Permission from Brother to Horse > >>From Blue Panther Keeper of Stories. > > > >==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > >============================== >Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > >==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > >============================== >Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Message from Dennis Banks www.sacredrun.org With so much violence happening at all levels, and so many killings happening in Iraq, it's time we look at these events as wake-up calls for all of us to answer. In 1978 we took up the challenge to run for our life and run for the planet we call Mother Earth. Now 27 years later we still run and have kept running in different countries to bring awareness to our responsibility to live in harmony with Mother Earth. Please join us as we run this course again.

YOu can get all we have on the Bird / Hembree relationships at that same website. www.rootsweb.com/~tnmcmin2 behind records. Scroll down to H for the Four Hembree Data Projects. Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] > -Joyce - > Really?!? cause I have relations back to the Bird family of NC, the > furthest back I have found so far is Edward Bird (or Byrd) of Duplin, > North Carolina, born Abt. 1755 - died Bef. 1830 in Franklin, MS. I am his > 5th great-granddaughter. My line goes from him through his son William > Bird - to Ebenizer P Bird - to Amaranth Harriet "Anne" Bird - to Lula > Leora Garrard - to Daisy Elizabeth Creekmore - to Barbara Jenkins (my > mother). Do you have a gedcom file you could send me? If so send to > anathema_studio@hotmail.com > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> > Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] > Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:25:40 -0500 > > The BIRD family has some associations with the Emory/Hembree family....got > several middle names of Bird....like Joel Bird in the group...It is said > to be from the Bird family of NC > > Joyce Gaston Reece > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" > <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> > To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:19 PM > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] > > >>Thanks for the website, I'll check that out. Reverund Red Bird Smith of >>the > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: 3/9/2006 > >

The BIRD family has some associations with the Emory/Hembree family....got several middle names of Bird....like Joel Bird in the group...It is said to be from the Bird family of NC Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] > Thanks for the website, I'll check that out. Reverund Red Bird Smith of > the

Delores THANK you so very much for a good post. It is few of our NA who so choose to enlighten us about the old ways and what you have learned from the old ones. Many of us researchers have to rely ONLY on what we can draw from certain resources and just wonder about the other half of the story. It takes some folks quite a while to realize that there is always more than one side to every door and every issue. Just one question though. Would Dragging Canoe have been the leader to tell Daniel Boone he could 'have' the land at Boonesborouh? If so it would explain some things to me in my research. You see, William Emory Jr is documented as having 2 encounters with Boone in KY. He is also known as Will or Capt Will. Capt Will was born 1744 and resided in the Overhills until at least 1762 when the first enounter is recorded with Boone. The second is recorded in 1772. When was Dragging Canoe supposed to have made this decision? He was a War Chief? Correct? Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoWolvesDancing" <twowolvesdancing@comcast.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY / Shawnees, Miquons, Susquehannas, Susquehannocks > 'Siyo. I haven't posted much lately, but felt to here... > Cherokees in the very early days used KY as only for Hunting Grounds. > They > knew that KY was cursed. That is why Dragging Canoe had no problem giving > KY to Daniel Boone and company... but told tem that they could have it. > And, that this land was a"dark and bloody land" and that "it had a dark > cloud over it". In my research and listening to some of the old ones that > I > learned that the curse came from the original peoples in that land that > were > merciless and bloody killers who were also cannibalistic in nature and > much > blood was shed on this land. That's why the Cherokees did not live there > for > too long of a period, but only used it for hunting. The Shawnees and > Miquon/Minqua (the English called them Susquehanna because they lived > along > the Susquehanna River in PA, MD, and VA) The Shawnees and Miquons were > their protectors. You will often find the Shawnees protecting their > Cherokees) borders in exchange for protection. The Miquons protected any > where... not just the border. Miquons were very tall (giants) warriors > who > came to fight, prepared to die. Miquon and Minqua and other variations of > it's spelling along with Susquehanna and Susquehannacks and it's other > variations of spelling, including Sasquahanna). Some called them > Sasquatch > because of this spelling. Some of my mom's side Cherokees came out of the > north hills of NC and Wolf Town NC they moved into the lower part of KY. > They only stayed a few generations before moving more north into MD. > > So, there were plenty of Indians in KY back in the early days. To set the > record straight... Dragging Canoe did not curse KY before giving it to the > whites... he was probably laughing to himself saying something like "if > those stupid people want KY they can have it... we surely don't want it > knowing what we have known for many, many generations." Cherokees did not > curse for they knew the way/tradition that what goes around comes > around... > now cursing could come from individuals, but not in general. > > TN has been going out of their way to destroy any remains of the old > Indian > places and artifacts. They have destroyed mounds and old villages, > covered > up these places and old burial grounds with housing developments and > business. Sitigo/Citigo is a prime example. One business man just > covered > the burial place with gravel just in case someone wants to gather the > bones > there on his place. One of the builders leveled an entire mound over > night > so that no one had time to get an injunction to stop him. Now that greed > with one day come up and bite him in the you-know-what... if it hadn't > already. > > Just some things that I have learned from Cherokee elders and historians > as > well as some Miquons. > > Hope this helps. > > Dolores 'TwoWolvesDancing' Phifer > aka Sparkle > >

'Siyo. I haven't posted much lately, but felt to here... Cherokees in the very early days used KY as only for Hunting Grounds. They knew that KY was cursed. That is why Dragging Canoe had no problem giving KY to Daniel Boone and company... but told tem that they could have it. And, that this land was a"dark and bloody land" and that "it had a dark cloud over it". In my research and listening to some of the old ones that I learned that the curse came from the original peoples in that land that were merciless and bloody killers who were also cannibalistic in nature and much blood was shed on this land. That's why the Cherokees did not live there for too long of a period, but only used it for hunting. The Shawnees and Miquon/Minqua (the English called them Susquehanna because they lived along the Susquehanna River in PA, MD, and VA) The Shawnees and Miquons were their protectors. You will often find the Shawnees protecting their Cherokees) borders in exchange for protection. The Miquons protected any where... not just the border. Miquons were very tall (giants) warriors who came to fight, prepared to die. Miquon and Minqua and other variations of it's spelling along with Susquehanna and Susquehannacks and it's other variations of spelling, including Sasquahanna). Some called them Sasquatch because of this spelling. Some of my mom's side Cherokees came out of the north hills of NC and Wolf Town NC they moved into the lower part of KY. They only stayed a few generations before moving more north into MD. So, there were plenty of Indians in KY back in the early days. To set the record straight... Dragging Canoe did not curse KY before giving it to the whites... he was probably laughing to himself saying something like "if those stupid people want KY they can have it... we surely don't want it knowing what we have known for many, many generations." Cherokees did not curse for they knew the way/tradition that what goes around comes around... now cursing could come from individuals, but not in general. TN has been going out of their way to destroy any remains of the old Indian places and artifacts. They have destroyed mounds and old villages, covered up these places and old burial grounds with housing developments and business. Sitigo/Citigo is a prime example. One business man just covered the burial place with gravel just in case someone wants to gather the bones there on his place. One of the builders leveled an entire mound over night so that no one had time to get an injunction to stop him. Now that greed with one day come up and bite him in the you-know-what... if it hadn't already. Just some things that I have learned from Cherokee elders and historians as well as some Miquons. Hope this helps. Dolores 'TwoWolvesDancing' Phifer aka Sparkle "Those who do not look upon themselves as a link connecting the past with the future do not perform their duty to the world" Daniel Webster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY There were NA in Kentucky....they just weren't Cherokee...Shawnee perhaps with others in their midst. It isn't assumed. Cherokee research shows no villages in what is now KY. I might suggest you read Mr. Worthy's "Chronicles of Border Warfare". It was written in 1830 and is reproduced in the original print. It may open the eyes of all NA researchers who tend to think that only the NA were abused. Unfortunately, it went both ways. Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Huff" <sheree606@alltel.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:27 PM Subject: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY > Why is/was it assumed that no Indians lived in the state of Kentucky? > Sherry

Fannin Co Ga, Murray Co GA Check at the maps at www.tngenweb.org Don't know in Alabama. A Walmart Atlas is very good but you can also google.earth. Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] MESSAGE FROM LEONARD PELTIER > Hey Joyce, do you know which websites to check out the current county > names for the lands that were NA lands in Georgia and Alabama? Or do you > have them? > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> > Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] MESSAGE FROM LEONARD PELTIER > Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:39:34 -0500 > > Lindsey > > One of the best things you can do for yourself is to get a set of maps > that show the ever-shrinking treatly lines of the Cherokee. They had > on-agaiin-off-again wars with several other tribes that probably > determined hunting grounds. Many say that the original Cherokee Lands > consisted of moch of the southeastern US. The Creeks held lands along the > Mississippi, into Alabama and west TN. There were several other tribes > scattered throughout the region. Chickasaw, Yuchi, Lumbee, some Shawnee, > Catawba and others. You have to remember that the Cherokee often 'adopted' > people from other tribes....sometimes as slaves, sometimes as spouses, etc > so, in my opinion, an exact boundary line is difficult to pinpoint....land > was just land. > > Since we have no other sources we have to rely on what is recorded in > written ORIGINAL history and as far as I know little written history > exists before the intervention of the white man in the 1500's. Little to > nothing is known until 1690 when white explorers began entering Cherokee > country. > > I've never seen any written documentation that provides any evidence that > villages (as I said earlier) existed north of the Long Island of the > Holstein. It is debated whether or not Attakullakulla and Doublehead were > born there OR on the Long Island of the Tennessee (Now the Little > Tennessee). > > There was an exploratory trip taken in the 1690's from Virginia. (I'm not > gonna take time to look up the name but my memory says Abraham Miller > sponsored it and I could very well be wrong.) At any rate a journal was > kept by the gentlemen and they clearly state not seeing any Cherokee > villages until they arrived at the Overhill settlements. They had > traveled thru parts of KY and NE Tenn...writing about their journey. > > There are publications that have the journal of the Grant Expedition that > came into the Valley towns and the Overhills from South Carolina. One of > those being the Journal of Cherokee Studies available at > www.cherokeemuseum.com The Valley towns were where the area of Cherokee > County, North Carolina is now. Murphy sits exactly on one of those. The > Hiwassee and Valley rivers merge at Murphy just before entering the > Appalachain Mountains again. It doesn't emerge from the mts until it is > several miles downriver into Polk County, TN at the Savannah (Hiwassee) > villages...Hiwassee Old Town. The Hiwassee river, as well as the Ocoee > (where Nancy Ward and Cornelius Daugherty lived) was fairly heavily > populated with villages with John Jolly's Hiwassee Island sitting at the > mouth of the Hiwassee....where it merges into the 'big' Tennessee. It > wasn't that far a stretch for the Chickamauga villages to pop up in the > region around the Big Bend of the Tennessee (Chattanooga). Ross'es > Landing was on the Big Bend. > > The last lands inhabited by the remaining Cherokee just before the removal > was so small it was ridiculious. There were Indians scattered throughout > the region on land...their holdings or not. That was why you have heard > so much about Cherokee claiming to be Black Dutch, Black Irish or > Melungeon. They wanted to stay on their own lands. > > That last holding consisted of what is now Polk County, TN and parts of > Cherokee co NC, Bradley Co, TN, McMinn co tn, Hamilton Co TN...parts of > Georgia and Alabama. The agency was at Calhoun, McMinn Co., TN. > > The American State Papers are available online that gives MUCH info about > the treaties and negotiations. I've extracted those relating to the > Cherokee at www.rootsweb.com/~tnpolk > > > > > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" > <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> > To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] MESSAGE FROM LEONARD PELTIER > > >>Actually if you could tell me all the places the old nation was, I'd >>appreciate it. I know where some of it was, but it's hard cause sometimes >>places on records are referred to as the states they are now, or "indian >>territory", or old nation. I think old nation was areas east of >>mississippi river, such as tennessee, mississippi, arkansas, but I'm not >>sure of exact areas in these places, and I know there were other places >>too. >> >>----Original Message Follows---- >>From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> >>Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com >>To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] MESSAGE FROM LEONARD PELTIER >>Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 13:41:46 -0500 >> >>If you get a current day map you will see the Little Tennessee River >>flowing from NC (heads up on Qualla Boundary) into east Tennessee. On >>this map you should see a dam on the river named Chilhowee. The village >>of Chilhowee stood very near that dam. Just down river from that was >>Citico then Chota. You can see an old map of the Grant Expedition of this >>area at www.rootsweb.com/~tnmcmin2 I think it is behind the Records icon. >>I may have put it on the Polk site also www.rootsweb.com/~tnpolk2 Check >>out the biographies while you are there. >> >> >>Anytime you have questions concerning the geographical subject of the >>eastern Cherokee I can, probably, help. I've lived right 'amongst' them >>all my life. >> >> >> >>Joyce Gaston Reece >> >> >>==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >> <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >>ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >> >>============================== >>Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >>areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >>Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> >> >> >>==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >> <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >>ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >> >>============================== >>Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. >>Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: >>http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx >> >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: 3/9/2006 >> > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: 3/9/2006 > >

If we are going to re-hash the Chief REd Bird and Dr. Tankersley issue I'd just as soon take it off this list. It's been done to death and still no documentation has been provided to prove the theories. You can check the Brock/Red Bird PLUS the DNA projects at www.sekybrocks.com The Red Bird you folks are seeing on the western rolls is not the same person who is alleged to be in KY...couldn't be...not possible. Ever hear of Reverund Red Bird Smith of the Keetowah Society? Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] > Hey anyone ever find census that have nothing listed for race for anyone > on the census? I keep finding these. > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> > Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] > Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:22:13 +0000 > > hehehe hi Harold, how you doin'. > I've heard of Chief Red Bird actually tripped across him on a list or > census the other day, Tehlequah as well. How did your search go? Were > there any snags, if so, how did you resolve them? > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Harold Young" <haroldyoung@columbus.rr.com> > Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:20:18 -0500 > > Osiyo Friends, > > I am new to the list, but I know that the Cherokees lived in Kentucky. My > ancestor, Chief Red Bird had village in Clay County, KY.His village was > called Tehlequah, the same as the Cherokee Nation, OK. Another of Red > Bird's descendants, my cousin, Dr. Ken Tankersley, who is head of Native > American studies at Northern Kentucky University is my source. I have > found 3/16 Cherokee Blood so far. The ancestors in KY hid there to be able > to stay in their beloved eastern Mountains. Back before the 1700 hundreds > Kentucky was Virginia. In my home county Lawrence County, KY there was a > small village called Cherokee, and today it is stll called Cherokee, Ky. > For all this knowledge there is no charge. I work free! > > > Harold Young, A mixed blood Cherokee from Kentucky > > > > >>was born in Tennessee. He died in Missouri. Lucinda went on to remarry a >>Woodruff in Kentucky. Many of the children of William and Lucinda were >>born >>in Kentucky. I have some information, unfortunately not enough, to >>believe >>that William Duncan may have been NA. >>My father would not discuss any of this history with me. He would get >>upset >>when I asked questions. His mother, my grandmother, told me once as a >>young >>child when I was asking a lot of questions, to "leave the skeletons in the >>closet. I might find out something I didn't want to know." No one would >>talk about the history except that there was "an Indian in there >>somewhere". >>My cousin finally tracked the linage somehow and I got her information >>after >>my father died. Unfortunately that cousin now has Alzheimer's and is not >>available to answer questions. The rest of the family seems to have >>similar >>reactions to those of my father. Brother! I sure wish they'd get over >>the >>hang ups. They sure impede my research. >> >>Virginia in Seattle >> >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" >><bjreece@bellsouth.net> >>To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:16 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY >> >> >>>There were NA in Kentucky....they just weren't Cherokee...Shawnee perhaps >>>with others in their midst. It isn't assumed. Cherokee research shows >>>no >>>villages in what is now KY. >>> >>>I might suggest you read Mr. Worthy's "Chronicles of Border Warfare". It >>>was written in 1830 and is reproduced in the original print. It may open >>>the eyes of all NA researchers who tend to think that only the NA were >>>abused. Unfortunately, it went both ways. >>> >>>Joyce Gaston Reece >>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Huff" <sheree606@alltel.net> >>>To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> >>>Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:27 PM >>>Subject: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY >>> >>> >>> > Why is/was it assumed that no Indians lived in the state of Kentucky? >>> > >>> > Sherry >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >>> > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >>> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >>> > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner >>> > below >>> > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >>> > >>> > ============================== >>> > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and >>> > the >>> > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >>> > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. >>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: >>> > 3/9/2006 >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>>==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >>> <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >>> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >>>ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >>> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >>> >>>============================== >>>View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find >>>marriage announcements and more. Learn more: >>>http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >>> >>> >> >>______________________________ > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: 3/9/2006 > >

----- Original Message ----- From: <CHEROKEE-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <CHEROKEE-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:20 PM Subject: CHEROKEE-D Digest V06 #182

Usually, if the race column is blank it is assumed that everyone is white. -----Original Message----- From: Lindsey Avery [mailto:anathema_studio@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 1:43 PM To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] Hey anyone ever find census that have nothing listed for race for anyone on the census? I keep finding these. ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:22:13 +0000 hehehe hi Harold, how you doin'. I've heard of Chief Red Bird actually tripped across him on a list or census the other day, Tehlequah as well. How did your search go? Were there any snags, if so, how did you resolve them? ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Harold Young" <haroldyoung@columbus.rr.com> Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:20:18 -0500 Osiyo Friends, I am new to the list, but I know that the Cherokees lived in Kentucky. My ancestor, Chief Red Bird had village in Clay County, KY.His village was called Tehlequah, the same as the Cherokee Nation, OK. Another of Red Bird's descendants, my cousin, Dr. Ken Tankersley, who is head of Native American studies at Northern Kentucky University is my source. I have found 3/16 Cherokee Blood so far. The ancestors in KY hid there to be able to stay in their beloved eastern Mountains. Back before the 1700 hundreds Kentucky was Virginia. In my home county Lawrence County, KY there was a small village called Cherokee, and today it is stll called Cherokee, Ky. For all this knowledge there is no charge. I work free! Harold Young, A mixed blood Cherokee from Kentucky >was born in Tennessee. He died in Missouri. Lucinda went on to >remarry a Woodruff in Kentucky. Many of the children of William and >Lucinda were born in Kentucky. I have some information, unfortunately >not enough, to believe that William Duncan may have been NA. >My father would not discuss any of this history with me. He would get upset >when I asked questions. His mother, my grandmother, told me once as a >young >child when I was asking a lot of questions, to "leave the skeletons in the >closet. I might find out something I didn't want to know." No one would >talk about the history except that there was "an Indian in there >somewhere". >My cousin finally tracked the linage somehow and I got her information >after >my father died. Unfortunately that cousin now has Alzheimer's and is not >available to answer questions. The rest of the family seems to have >similar >reactions to those of my father. Brother! I sure wish they'd get over >the >hang ups. They sure impede my research. > >Virginia in Seattle > > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" ><bjreece@bellsouth.net> >To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:16 AM >Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY > > >>There were NA in Kentucky....they just weren't Cherokee...Shawnee >>perhaps with others in their midst. It isn't assumed. Cherokee >>research shows no villages in what is now KY. >> >>I might suggest you read Mr. Worthy's "Chronicles of Border Warfare". >>It was written in 1830 and is reproduced in the original print. It >>may open the eyes of all NA researchers who tend to think that only >>the NA were abused. Unfortunately, it went both ways. >> >>Joyce Gaston Reece >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Huff" >><sheree606@alltel.net> >>To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:27 PM >>Subject: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY >> >> >> > Why is/was it assumed that no Indians lived in the state of >> > Kentucky? >> > >> > Sherry >> > >> > >> > >> > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >> > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL >> > the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >> > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >> > >> > ============================== >> > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and >> > the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 >> > months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> > >> > >> > >> > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: >> > 3/9/2006 >> > >> > >> >> >>==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >> <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL >>the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >> >>============================== >>View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find >>marriage announcements and more. Learn more: >>http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >> >> > >______________________________ ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

> Wild Bill Oliver sent this URL for a slide show (see photo links at the > bottom of the page). > http://multimedia.rockymountainnews.com/slideshow/slideshow.cfm?type=DEFAULT&ID=012006lundstrom&NUM=1 > > Also see: > http://www.militarycity.com/valor/1464148.html

Lindsey One of the best things you can do for yourself is to get a set of maps that show the ever-shrinking treatly lines of the Cherokee. They had on-agaiin-off-again wars with several other tribes that probably determined hunting grounds. Many say that the original Cherokee Lands consisted of moch of the southeastern US. The Creeks held lands along the Mississippi, into Alabama and west TN. There were several other tribes scattered throughout the region. Chickasaw, Yuchi, Lumbee, some Shawnee, Catawba and others. You have to remember that the Cherokee often 'adopted' people from other tribes....sometimes as slaves, sometimes as spouses, etc so, in my opinion, an exact boundary line is difficult to pinpoint....land was just land. Since we have no other sources we have to rely on what is recorded in written ORIGINAL history and as far as I know little written history exists before the intervention of the white man in the 1500's. Little to nothing is known until 1690 when white explorers began entering Cherokee country. I've never seen any written documentation that provides any evidence that villages (as I said earlier) existed north of the Long Island of the Holstein. It is debated whether or not Attakullakulla and Doublehead were born there OR on the Long Island of the Tennessee (Now the Little Tennessee). There was an exploratory trip taken in the 1690's from Virginia. (I'm not gonna take time to look up the name but my memory says Abraham Miller sponsored it and I could very well be wrong.) At any rate a journal was kept by the gentlemen and they clearly state not seeing any Cherokee villages until they arrived at the Overhill settlements. They had traveled thru parts of KY and NE Tenn...writing about their journey. There are publications that have the journal of the Grant Expedition that came into the Valley towns and the Overhills from South Carolina. One of those being the Journal of Cherokee Studies available at www.cherokeemuseum.com The Valley towns were where the area of Cherokee County, North Carolina is now. Murphy sits exactly on one of those. The Hiwassee and Valley rivers merge at Murphy just before entering the Appalachain Mountains again. It doesn't emerge from the mts until it is several miles downriver into Polk County, TN at the Savannah (Hiwassee) villages...Hiwassee Old Town. The Hiwassee river, as well as the Ocoee (where Nancy Ward and Cornelius Daugherty lived) was fairly heavily populated with villages with John Jolly's Hiwassee Island sitting at the mouth of the Hiwassee....where it merges into the 'big' Tennessee. It wasn't that far a stretch for the Chickamauga villages to pop up in the region around the Big Bend of the Tennessee (Chattanooga). Ross'es Landing was on the Big Bend. The last lands inhabited by the remaining Cherokee just before the removal was so small it was ridiculious. There were Indians scattered throughout the region on land...their holdings or not. That was why you have heard so much about Cherokee claiming to be Black Dutch, Black Irish or Melungeon. They wanted to stay on their own lands. That last holding consisted of what is now Polk County, TN and parts of Cherokee co NC, Bradley Co, TN, McMinn co tn, Hamilton Co TN...parts of Georgia and Alabama. The agency was at Calhoun, McMinn Co., TN. The American State Papers are available online that gives MUCH info about the treaties and negotiations. I've extracted those relating to the Cherokee at www.rootsweb.com/~tnpolk Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] MESSAGE FROM LEONARD PELTIER > Actually if you could tell me all the places the old nation was, I'd > appreciate it. I know where some of it was, but it's hard cause sometimes > places on records are referred to as the states they are now, or "indian > territory", or old nation. I think old nation was areas east of > mississippi river, such as tennessee, mississippi, arkansas, but I'm not > sure of exact areas in these places, and I know there were other places > too. > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> > Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] MESSAGE FROM LEONARD PELTIER > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 13:41:46 -0500 > > If you get a current day map you will see the Little Tennessee River > flowing from NC (heads up on Qualla Boundary) into east Tennessee. On > this map you should see a dam on the river named Chilhowee. The village > of Chilhowee stood very near that dam. Just down river from that was > Citico then Chota. You can see an old map of the Grant Expedition of this > area at www.rootsweb.com/~tnmcmin2 I think it is behind the Records icon. > I may have put it on the Polk site also www.rootsweb.com/~tnpolk2 Check > out the biographies while you are there. > > > Anytime you have questions concerning the geographical subject of the > eastern Cherokee I can, probably, help. I've lived right 'amongst' them > all my life. > > > > Joyce Gaston Reece > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: 3/9/2006 >

May I offer you congratulations on your chosen profession - it is an honorable one - you will be grossly underpaid for the hours you put in and the services you perform. However, there are some things that we must value more than money; a nutrured mind for instance. When you have taught that first year, and marvel at what you accomplished, know that you will be rewarded - it is a great appreciation that I honored in mentioning my "old History teacher". My ancestors that I attempt to trace have managed to provide several doctors, and a whole bunch of teachers!, including my older brother who coached and was also a principal in later years. My youngest son is a dept. chairman at a community college and his wife is preparing to be a Jr. High principal. My gr.gr. gandmother signed with an X for land in the 1800's, but I have recently located 3 grgr.granddaughters from her second marriage and discovered they too are teachers. I wish you a lifetime of happy teaching, and beg of you - rule with a gentle voice! Remember that sugar catches a lot more flies! Hahaha Bettye ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lindsey Avery" <anathema_studio@hotmail.com> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY > hehehehehehhehe .."Good old teachers never die, they just get propped up > in their chairs."....classic! > actually, better watch it, I'm about to be one of those teachers. ;) > But I'll be teaching art, not history. Or rather I plan to teach > philosophy, history, sociology, and psychology under the premise of art. > Make 'em learn something without knowing they learned something. > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Bettye Woodhull" <betron1@sbcglobal.net> > Reply-To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY > Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 14:01:06 -0600 > > Hi Joyce, thanks for all the valuable information you graciously share > with us. Would we find "Chronicles of Border Warfare" at local libraries > and or is it still available to purchase in local book stores or > Amazon.com maybe? > I had never given much thought about there not being any Cherokee > villages in KY; however, it is passed down information relating to my 3 > gr.grandmother that she is 1/2 Cherokee and born in Madison, KY in 1799 > ( I am not sure if this is Madison County or a village of that name. I do > know that I have a cookbook from "cooks of Madison County". > 3gr.grandmother is said to have married in TN in 1816, so was her family > "roamers" or just moving to where food was found available. > It has been close to 60 years since I sat with an opened American > History book in front of me, but I like Lindsey, don't remember our > spending an awful lot of time on NA's, something that I now regret more > frequently. Lindsey, my American and World History teacher had taught my > daddy, so students didn't dare question why or how she taught those > courses!! She was still teaching when my sister came thru the school 9 > years later. . .."Good old teachers never die, they just get propped up in > their chairs." > Bettye Woodhull > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" > <bjreece@bellsouth.net> > To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 1:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY > > >>There were NA in Kentucky....they just weren't Cherokee...Shawnee perhaps >>with others in their midst. It isn't assumed. Cherokee research shows no >>villages in what is now KY. >> >>I might suggest you read Mr. Worthy's "Chronicles of Border Warfare". It >>was written in 1830 and is reproduced in the original print. It may open >>the eyes of all NA researchers who tend to think that only the NA were >>abused. Unfortunately, it went both ways. >> >>Joyce Gaston Reece >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Huff" <sheree606@alltel.net> >>To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:27 PM >>Subject: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY >> >> >>>Why is/was it assumed that no Indians lived in the state of Kentucky? >>> >>>Sherry >>> >>> >>> >>>==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >>> <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >>> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >>>ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >>> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >>> >>>============================== >>>Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >>>areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >>>Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>No virus found in this incoming message. >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: 3/9/2006 >>> >>> >> >> >>==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >> <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list >>ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >> >>============================== >>View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find >>marriage announcements and more. Learn more: >>http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >> >> > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > >

And how many moons ago was that? (second month on the net?) LOL Yes, in the past there have been a few members speak about Leonard but there hasn't been mention of him for quite a while. the last real discussion I remember having here about him was when he was being transferred to his current facility & being denied several things. Doing a search is great (for many reasons) but its also just as helpful if not more to learn from those who have kept up w/him & his situation to share what they know, such as what a few have had done recently. ;) Alli :) > I have known about him since my second month on the net. > Seems so many members have made posts about him I thought every one had > read > several over the years.

Maybe it is the term Melungeon that is mis-judged or misused. DNA testing has not been able to identify any specific markers that would suggest the Melungeons are a distinct "race" or "ethnic" group. Over time I think the lines of reality have been blurred. We have had so much influence from other cultures, races, religions, and ethnic backgrounds that our true identities and those of our parents, grandparents, and great grandparents may be lost to history forever. -----Original Message----- From: Joyce G. Reece [mailto:bjreece@bellsouth.net] Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 8:42 PM To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] Indians in Kentucky You may need to look, in depth, at the term 'black dutch or Irish" ...compare it to Melungeon. I honestly believe the terms have come to be so mis-judged or mis-used (including the term mulatto) that few know who or who they really apply to. I think it was, sometimes, like the census takers writing surnames. Few were educated enough to know how to spell their names so the census takers wrote it like it sounded...and how it sounded depended upon how much terbaccy grandpa had in his mouth. We have at least 10 spelling alternatives for Emory/Hembree. I've also heard these called Melungeon and like I said....I've lived here among these people all my life...I don't recall a time of not knowing about these terms. Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Huff" <sheree606@alltel.net> ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=1459 9&targetid=5429

Harold, According to the Dickey Diaries Chief Red Bird was only "assumed" to be Cherokee. Also, Aaron Brock has not been proven to be Chief Red Bird. Sherry -----Original Message----- From: Harold Young [mailto:haroldyoung@columbus.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 8:20 PM To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] Osiyo Friends, I am new to the list, but I know that the Cherokees lived in Kentucky. My ancestor, Chief Red Bird had village in Clay County, KY.His village was called Tehlequah, the same as the Cherokee Nation, OK. Another of Red Bird's descendants, my cousin, Dr. Ken Tankersley, who is head of Native American studies at Northern Kentucky University is my source. I have found 3/16 Cherokee Blood so far. The ancestors in KY hid there to be able to stay in their beloved eastern Mountains. Back before the 1700 hundreds Kentucky was Virginia. In my home county Lawrence County, KY there was a small village called Cherokee, and today it is stll called Cherokee, Ky. For all this knowledge there is no charge. I work free! Harold Young, A mixed blood Cherokee from Kentucky > was born in Tennessee. He died in Missouri. Lucinda went on to > remarry a Woodruff in Kentucky. Many of the children of William and > Lucinda were born in Kentucky. I have some information, unfortunately > not enough, to believe > that William Duncan may have been NA. > My father would not discuss any of this history with me. He would get > upset > when I asked questions. His mother, my grandmother, told me once as a > young > child when I was asking a lot of questions, to "leave the skeletons in the > closet. I might find out something I didn't want to know." No one would > talk about the history except that there was "an Indian in there > somewhere". > My cousin finally tracked the linage somehow and I got her information > after > my father died. Unfortunately that cousin now has Alzheimer's and is not > available to answer questions. The rest of the family seems to have > similar > reactions to those of my father. Brother! I sure wish they'd get over > the > hang ups. They sure impede my research. > > Virginia in Seattle > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> > To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY > > >> There were NA in Kentucky....they just weren't Cherokee...Shawnee >> perhaps with others in their midst. It isn't assumed. Cherokee >> research shows no villages in what is now KY. >> >> I might suggest you read Mr. Worthy's "Chronicles of Border >> Warfare". >> It >> was written in 1830 and is reproduced in the original print. It may open >> the eyes of all NA researchers who tend to think that only the NA were >> abused. Unfortunately, it went both ways. >> >> Joyce Gaston Reece >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Sherry Huff" <sheree606@alltel.net> >> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:27 PM >> Subject: [Cherokee Circle] No Indians in KY >> >> >> > Why is/was it assumed that no Indians lived in the state of >> > Kentucky? >> > >> > Sherry >> > >> > >> > >> > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >> > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL >> > the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >> > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >> > >> > ============================== >> > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and >> > the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 >> > months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: 3/9/2006 >> > >> > >> >> >> ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== >> <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> >> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> >> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL >> the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below >> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html >> >> ============================== >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, >> find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >> >> > > ______________________________ ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx

this was a code used for recognition of different tribes.my husbands family said to be black dutch were choctaw.they might have had some germanic roots but were mixed bloods.anna in houston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Huff" <sheree606@alltel.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:48 PM Subject: RE: [Cherokee Circle] Indians in Kentucky > Also, I have a record stating that an ancestor of mine was "black > dutch" from the continent of Europe. I guess maybe it is possible that > those groups were indeed "black dutch" or "black Irish" and not Native > American. > > Sherry > > -----Original Message----- > From: shadowbear270 [mailto:shadowbear270@webtv.net] > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 3:28 PM > To: CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Cherokee Circle] Indians in Kentucky > > > I will tell how it was in Missouri The state of Missouri said indians > could not own land and indians could not stay in the state==so the > indians changed their names==called them selfs black dutch or dark > French or black Irishor maybe hill billies now there was no lndians in > the state maybe that was the way it was in Kentucky== > > SHADOW BEAR > > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list ALL the > links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > > ==== CHEROKEE Mailing List ==== > <<>OPEN forum to all Cherokee topics - except Genealogy<>> > <>Culture-History-Language-Folk lore and Truths<> > Good Manners & Language is required to be on the list > ALL the links you will need to sub and unsub or contact listowner below > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/CHEROKEE.html > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > >

There is a lot on the net. Search brings up several websites. I have known about him since my second month on the net. Seems so many members have made posts about him I thought every one had read several over the years. Pop in a search and see what comes up for you. He is secure in the hearts of many NA not just Cherokee. ;-) Dan M www.wvi.com/~wb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Genealogy_Chat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net> To: <CHEROKEE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:48 AM Subject: [Cherokee Circle] MESSAGE FROM LEONARD PELTIER > No...it's just that some of US have spent more time studying the history of > the EASTERN Cherokee. Frankly, I think it is in fairly poor taste of some > on this list to expect everyone on this list to know all about ALL NA. If I > were insulted I might get upset *G* Rather than answer the question it just > raises exclamations....sheesh. > > If I were to ask the question to 'name the 7 Cherokee leaders who were > killed in 1777, by whom and why', would BP and Susan have to go digging for > the info? Just an example > > Joyce Gaston Reece >

You may need to look, in depth, at the term 'black dutch or Irish" ...compare it to Melungeon. I honestly believe the terms have come to be so mis-judged or mis-used (including the term mulatto) that few know who or who they really apply to. I think it was, sometimes, like the census takers writing surnames. Few were educated enough to know how to spell their names so the census takers wrote it like it sounded...and how it sounded depended upon how much terbaccy grandpa had in his mouth. We have at least 10 spelling alternatives for Emory/Hembree. I've also heard these called Melungeon and like I said....I've lived here among these people all my life...I don't recall a time of not knowing about these terms. Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Huff" <sheree606@alltel.net>