As stated, there is so much discussion over this and sometimes it is offensive. From what I have learned from hanging out with mostly "card carrying" Indians is that the problems that have caused this big "are you a provable Indian" animosity comes from "New Agers" those who were Indian in another life, they take the spiritual things of the people and try to "cash in" on them. They speak like ... well what can only be described as "someone who has seen dances with wolves one to many times". They give themselves some made up "made for TV name" and after only a little reading they are real experts in everything Indian. Or those folks who have hung out around pow wow so long that they try to convince anyone who will listen that they are a big time spiritual leader for their tribe and the stuff that they are teaching as true "tribal ways of their tribe" is that of the Lakota or some other tribe. It is because of the fakes and phonies that those who can prove their heritage get offensive about if you really are of Blood or if your Grandpa was a Chief and your Grandmother was a Princess. This is just my take on the situation and what I have observed most provable Indian people are very kind to those who are still looking, when that person is respectful and does not try to act and speak in a "movie character" way. Recently there was a man within our view who played a flute, he was billed out as some super spiritual leader there was no proof that he was Indian but he came before the people telling these "spiritual ways" and how he had to fast & pray before playing his flute. Although the bull impressed those who knew nothing about who their were, those who new better were saying that he was "A white guy playing flute elevator music". After all this talk of "spiritual ways" he went up to a "real traditionalist" and inviting him to join him, after he collect his money, to go the hotel bar for brew. This was a insult to what he was "selling" and cheapened the whole thing. Just sharing what I have observed and in no way insulting anyone, just trying to let those who can not understand why "provables" sometimes have hard feelings. ----- Original Message ----- From: Markie <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 10:55 AM Subject: [CHAHTA] Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Re: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-D Digest V00 #346 > >Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:07:08 -0700 (PDT) > >From: "Skydancer" <[email protected]> > >To: [email protected] > > > >Jim > >I don't know what the INDIAN is in people..I know the things I believe..Does > >it > >mean I have to carry a symbol of this on my person..NO it is in my heart. It > >does NOT take yours or anyones approval. There is only one person I need > >approval from and that is the Creator. I am supposed to be part Irish..but > >do I > >need to have a card to prove this too? NO!!! A person that is in tune with > >THEMSELVES know who they ARE. This takes no approval from ANYONE. > >I have heard so much of this CARD..I have just turned down the opportunity > >of having a CARD, because I don't need the CARD to tell me who I AM. > >Creator knows who I am this is enough proof for me. > >Skydancer > > > >May the Creator light your path, > >and you will forever walk in peace. > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <[email protected]> > >To: <[email protected]> > >Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 9:19 AM > >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Re: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-D Digest V00 #346 > > > > > >| I just don't quite see the logic in this. You mean that all a person has > >to > >| do is say they are Indian and they WILL BE reconized as such? WHO will > >| reconize them without proof? > >| > >| > >| > >| > >| At 12:47 AM 5/23/00 EDT, you wrote: > >| >In a message dated 05/22/2000 8:37:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > >| >[email protected] writes: > >| > > >| ><< Unfortunately, we Natives have to have proof in order to enroll in a > >| > Federally recognized tribe. It does not mean we are not as good as > >other > >| > people, it's just the way things are. > >| > > >| > Carol Jean >> > >| >I understand that we must have proof to enroll. My point is that we > >don't > >| >need proof to be Indian. > >| > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.htm > Choctaw Chat: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/chat.htm > >

Hi Theresa, Welcome HOME!! <G> Thank you, you hit the nail on the head! You are exactly correct. As a "non card carrying" Indian myself, who hangs out with.. from full bloods all the way down to a little bit of blood.... and from many different tribes... some are elders on the council of their tribes. I have always been treated with respect for who I am, not my blood quantum. Not once have I been asked "do you have a CDIB card?"... not once have I been asked "how much blood are you?"... nor.. "are you a real Indian?" You're right when you say you can spot someone who has been watching to many movies! The people I know, talk just like everyone else. I have spent time in many of their homes, and they are just the same! Everyone laughs, and talks normal just like me. <G> Well... OK... I may sound a little bit more country than some of them! haha Markie At 12:34 PM 05/24/2000 -0700, you wrote: >As stated, there is so much discussion over this and sometimes it is >offensive. From what I have learned from hanging out with mostly "card >carrying" Indians is that the problems that have caused this big "are you a >provable Indian" animosity comes from "New Agers" those who were Indian in >another life, they take the spiritual things of the people and try to "cash >in" on them. They speak like ... well what can only be described as "someone >who has seen dances with wolves one to many times". They give themselves >some made up "made for TV name" and after only a little reading they are >real experts in everything Indian. Or those folks who have hung out around >pow wow so long that they try to convince anyone who will listen that they >are a big time spiritual leader for their tribe and the stuff that they are >teaching as true "tribal ways of their tribe" is that of the Lakota or some >other tribe. It is because of the fakes and phonies that those who can prove >their heritage get offensive about if you really are of Blood or if your >Grandpa was a Chief and your Grandmother was a Princess. >This is just my take on the situation and what I have observed most >provable Indian people are very kind to those who are still looking, when >that person is respectful and does not try to act and speak in a "movie >character" way. > >Recently there was a man within our view who played a flute, he was billed >out as some super spiritual leader there was no proof that he was Indian but >he came before the people telling these "spiritual ways" and how he had to >fast & pray before playing his flute. Although the bull impressed those who >knew nothing about who their were, those who new better were saying that he >was "A white guy playing flute elevator music". After all this talk of >"spiritual ways" he went up to a "real traditionalist" and inviting him to >join him, after he collect his money, to go the hotel bar for brew. This >was a insult to what he was "selling" and cheapened the whole thing. >Just sharing what I have observed and in no way insulting anyone, just >trying to let those who can not understand why "provables" sometimes have >hard feelings.

I too, as of this date am not a card carrying Indian.The only time I was ever asked is when someone asked if I would like to exhibit my baskets at a pow wow and I can't here in Oklahoma without a card. There are still shows I can do that are classified Native American and Nature. I had a Navajo ask me to exhibit at Mesa Verde and all they wanted was some kind of document stating that I was Indian. If we are not fullbloods we have another part that needs to be honored and descrimination comes in all colors.When you go to a pow wow here everyone talks and is sociable and couldn't care less if you are a card carrying Indian.No one asks how much Indian are you. In all my life I have only had two times when I was looked at as less,by another Indian.I wasn't as dark so evidently I wasn't Indian. I would say that wasn't an Indian thing on their part but a personal issue they hadn't dealt with within themselves. I have to address my white side as well as my Indian side. My husband in his infinite wisdom helps me to remember that. We were at Tushkahoma reading some old articles about trading between Choctaw Basketweavers and farmers. My husbands family were big farmers in MS. I asked my husband if he thought my family had traded with his family? He looked at me and said Arla,your family probably traded with each other. Yes I would love to have a CDIB card.I may never, but card or not I want to be who I am and honor all parts of myself.I want to learn all I can about my heritage.For centuries there was only oral history.If that is all I am to have on my family then I will continue to pass that history to my children and grandchildren. I have learned much from these Choctaw lists and plan to learn more. Chi Holloli Arla > > Thank you, you hit the nail on the head! You are exactly correct. As a > "non card carrying" Indian myself, who hangs out with.. from full bloods > all the way down to a little bit of blood.... and from many different > tribes... some are elders on the council of their tribes. I have always > been treated with respect for who I am, not my blood quantum. Not once > have I been asked "do you have a CDIB card?"... not once have I been asked > "how much blood are you?"... nor.. "are you a real Indian?" You're right > when you say you can spot someone who has been watching to many movies!

Hey there, Right, you understood where I was coming from. Sometimes I have sound tracks of Smoke Signals going off in my head, that one that was kinda a laugh on stereo types, & the one young kid always tried so hard to "sound" Indian. I wasn't really ready to come home but somehow this got to me and ooppps I could not help but say, I miss it all. Ellen said you had a good pow wow, the gathering had 2000 in attendance, we figured on 1500 it doesn't sound like much more, but it was, however it was great. We had traditional dress making classes, Choctaw style beading classes, games, Charlie Jones was fabulous, for the opening ceremony he sang "Meditation on death" that our ancestors sang each evening on the trail of tears. I can not even begin to list everything it was great, but as you know the ones who put it on work all weekend and really do not get to see the classes, events, etc.. Speaking of sounding a little more country than most, have you hear those from our tribal complex ;-) there are a couple that I love to just listen to them talk, I don't care what they are talking about, it is just that smooth slow southern sound that is so neat to hear. Theresa ----- Original Message ----- From: Markie <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Blood Quantum, or Card Carrying > Hi Theresa, > > Welcome HOME!! <G> > > Thank you, you hit the nail on the head! You are exactly correct. As a > "non card carrying" Indian myself, who hangs out with.. from full bloods > all the way down to a little bit of blood.... and from many different > tribes... some are elders on the council of their tribes. I have always > been treated with respect for who I am, not my blood quantum. Not once > have I been asked "do you have a CDIB card?"... not once have I been asked > "how much blood are you?"... nor.. "are you a real Indian?" You're right > when you say you can spot someone who has been watching to many movies! > The people I know, talk just like everyone else. I have spent time in many > of their homes, and they are just the same! Everyone laughs, and talks > normal just like me. <G> Well... OK... I may sound a little bit more > country than some of them! haha > > Markie > > At 12:34 PM 05/24/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >As stated, there is so much discussion over this and sometimes it is > >offensive. From what I have learned from hanging out with mostly "card > >carrying" Indians is that the problems that have caused this big "are you a > >provable Indian" animosity comes from "New Agers" those who were Indian in > >another life, they take the spiritual things of the people and try to "cash > >in" on them. They speak like ... well what can only be described as "someone > >who has seen dances with wolves one to many times". They give themselves > >some made up "made for TV name" and after only a little reading they are > >real experts in everything Indian. Or those folks who have hung out around > >pow wow so long that they try to convince anyone who will listen that they > >are a big time spiritual leader for their tribe and the stuff that they are > >teaching as true "tribal ways of their tribe" is that of the Lakota or some > >other tribe. It is because of the fakes and phonies that those who can prove > >their heritage get offensive about if you really are of Blood or if your > >Grandpa was a Chief and your Grandmother was a Princess. > >This is just my take on the situation and what I have observed most > >provable Indian people are very kind to those who are still looking, when > >that person is respectful and does not try to act and speak in a "movie > >character" way. > > > >Recently there was a man within our view who played a flute, he was billed > >out as some super spiritual leader there was no proof that he was Indian but > >he came before the people telling these "spiritual ways" and how he had to > >fast & pray before playing his flute. Although the bull impressed those who > >knew nothing about who their were, those who new better were saying that he > >was "A white guy playing flute elevator music". After all this talk of > >"spiritual ways" he went up to a "real traditionalist" and inviting him to > >join him, after he collect his money, to go the hotel bar for brew. This > >was a insult to what he was "selling" and cheapened the whole thing. > >Just sharing what I have observed and in no way insulting anyone, just > >trying to let those who can not understand why "provables" sometimes have > >hard feelings. > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: > Send msg. to [email protected] > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

Hi Theresa, I loved Smoke Signals. I may have told you this one time, but I don't remember. One night a group of us decided to all get together and have an Indian movie fest on a friends new big screen TV. Everyone brought the movies they had and we vegged out half the night. When we all saw Smoke Signals a few weeks later, the line in it where Thomas says something like, "there is nothing dummer, than a bunch of Indians sitting around watching Indian movies" we all fell out of our chairs laughing! <G> Markie At 10:57 PM 05/24/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Hey there, Right, you understood where I was coming from. Sometimes I have >sound tracks of Smoke Signals going off in my head, that one that was kinda >a laugh on stereo types, & the one young kid always tried so hard to "sound" >Indian. >Theresa

I love the line where Victor tells Thomas to look like he has just killed a buffalo.Thomas says but we were fishermen.Then Victor says something about you don't want to look like you just caught a fish.hahahahahah I do the best Thomas impersonation.hehehehehe Arlene, makes the best fry bread!!!! Arla ---------- > Hi Theresa, > > I loved Smoke Signals. I may have told you this one time, but I don't > remember. One night a group of us decided to all get together and have an > Indian movie fest on a friends new big screen TV. Everyone brought the > movies they had and we vegged out half the night. When we all saw Smoke > Signals a few weeks later, the line in it where Thomas says something like, > "there is nothing dummer, than a bunch of Indians sitting around watching > Indian movies" we all fell out of our chairs laughing! <G> > > Markie >

Hey Theresa, Yes, the pow wow was great. It wasn't that big for our first Scholarship one tho. Everyone had a great day, the weather was beautiful, and we awarded a $1,000.00 Scholarship to a girl from Marshall, Tx. who is a member of a northern California tribe. I can't remember which one right now. The next day was Easter Sunday, and we had tornados popping all over the place here. One hit the pow wow grounds! Thank goodness it didn't happen the day before. We had lots of trees down, out buildings blown over... plus the port-o-lets! eweeeee.. haha Our main building, MC stand, and circle was not hurt, we were soooo lucky there. I don't know how we could have gotten it all put back together for our Sept. Pow Wow. We usually have between 2000 to 3000 attend that one. I would give anything if I could have attended yours. I would love to have met Charlie Jones. I've listened to his Choctaw language tapes so long, I think he's a member of the family! haha It sounds like it was great and I would have liked to seen all the different classes. Yep, I know, when you are the one putting it on, you don't see "nothing"!! There is always to much to do. What did the speakers end up talking about? You know when you posted here for anyone to give ideas of questions that they would like to ask, and no one said a thing? <G> Yes, I've talked to a couple of them on the phone, but didn't notice anything, because they talk just like me!! haha! Markie At 10:57 PM 05/24/2000 -0700, you wrote: Ellen said you had a good pow wow, >the gathering had 2000 in attendance, we figured on 1500 it doesn't sound >like much more, but it was, however it was great. We had traditional dress >making classes, Choctaw style beading classes, games, Charlie Jones was >fabulous, for the opening ceremony he sang "Meditation on death" that our >ancestors sang each evening on the trail of tears. I can not even begin to >list everything it was great, but as you know the ones who put it on work >all weekend and really do not get to see the classes, events, etc.. >Speaking of sounding a little more country than most, have you hear those >from our tribal complex ;-) there are a couple that I love to just listen to >them talk, I don't care what they are talking about, it is just that smooth >slow southern sound that is so neat to hear. >Theresa