Good ole Webster's!! intelligence = the ability to learn or understand from experience wisdom = the quality of being wise; power of judging rightly and following the soundest course of action, based on knowledge, experience, understanding, etc. Jim jmorsn@coastalnet.com http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Jim, intelligence > If I remember my studies, "intelligence" has been defined as "problem > solving ability". At least that's how intelligent quotients (IQ's)used to be > measured - on a person's ability to solve given problems. > > I would think "wisdom" would better be defined as a"accumulated knowledge". > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Morrison, Jr. <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 1:06 AM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Jim, intelligence > > > > Lets see now....Is "intelligence" the same as "wisdom"? > > This "animal" you are refering to has a HUGE amount of unused > > "intelligence". Through Trial and Error this "animal" is gaining the > > "wisdom" to put this "intelligence" to work for him. > > As for YOUR disapproval as to what this newly appointed "animal" is doing: > > Three years from now YOU had better be out there campaining for the ONE > you > > beleive in!! > > You may have kicked sand in my face on this last one, BUT if the animals > in > > the stories have soooooo much wisdom to share, why are THEY not telling > the > > story? > > Jim > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 11:14 AM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] Jim, intelligence > > > > > > > Well Jim that would have to depend on your definition of intelligence. > > > Computer scientists, working in the field on "Arficial Intelligence" > can't > > > even come to a consensus what that word means. What's your take on this > > term? > > > > > > > > > Let's not forget there is a certain animal who is trying to determine > how > > to > > > sustain enclosed enviorments in the middle of the desert so that we can > > move > > > to Mars. This animal has also built a huge solar space station (now the > > third > > > brightest object in the sky) to determine how life can be sustained > > outside of > > > this planet. So somehow this animal has concluded that taking care of > the > > > beautiful planet we already live on is either more difficult or less > > desirable > > > than turning unsustainable environments into sustainable ones. A > certain > > > animal, one who has just been appointed president of a large polulation > of > > > these animals, has recently decided to keep his nation out of an > > environmental > > > conference. He cites economic growth as a reasonable alternative to > > having a > > > livable atmosphere. This type of behavior does not fit my definition of > > > intelligence. How about yours? > > > > > > As far as evolution. Other animals are continuously undergoing > evolution > > just > > > as we are. It is a Chahta principle that all things are constantly > > changing. > > > Do you think it is consistent with Chahta beliefs to say that other > > animals > > > are less intelligent than we are? In many of our stories , our lessons > > are > > > taught to us by other animals. These animals are referred to as > knowledge > > > givers. It's inconsistent to learn from someone who is less intelligent > > than > > > you are isn't it? > > > > > > "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> wrote: > > > Hi Barb > > > I totally disagree. What animal has more intellegence than man? What > other > > > animal has evolved as far as man has? > > > And lets not forget that man himself is an animal!! > > > Jim > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Barbara Ellison" <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 1:49 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim... > > > > Elkdreamer's point was that man is not superior to animals. > > > > B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 1:57 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elk > > > > > I have to disagree with you. MAN is not the weakest animal on earth, > > > nor > > > > the > > > > > slowest. HE is one of the most intelligent which has caused him to > > > become > > > > > very lazy. > > > > > I have never been inside a "sweat lodge", but by design I would > think > > > you > > > > > have to enter on your hands and knees to help keep the heat inside. > > Not > > > to > > > > > degrade you to the point you feel you are an animal. Tell me > > something: > > > > > which animal do you know of that starts a fire under rocks and then > > > pours > > > > > water on them to creat steam so that they can sit inside sweat and > > > > meditate? > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 5:44 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito again Barbara > > > > > > Man is the weakest animal on mother earth. The only thing that > has > > > > > helped > > > > > > us to survive is our ability to think. Every other animal has > > sharper > > > > > teeth > > > > > > can run faster etc. When you go into a sweat lodge you do so on > your > > > > hands > > > > > > and knees to remind us that we are still animals, and part of the > > > circle > > > > > of > > > > > > life here on Mother Earth. > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:06:30 -0600 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Again, speaking of animals..we know it is NOT necessary that we > > > consume > > > > > > >their bodies...and if you really want to keep including > plants..we > > > > don't > > > > > > >have to kill those to eat parts of them...but I was really > talking > > > > about > > > > > > >animals... > > > > > > >And do you really think YOU mean as much to a squirrel as her own > > > baby > > > > > > >does? > > > > > > >As for me..in many ways I feel equal to the snake, toad, and > > > > insect...but > > > > > > >in > > > > > > >many more I feel inferior being the species I am...it would seem > > that > > > > in > > > > > > >most cases, a squirrel knows better how to be a squirrel than a > > human > > > > > does > > > > > > >a > > > > > > >human...I still think it is very egocentric to think that animals > > > were > > > > > put > > > > > > >here for human use....Then again..some people think the earth is > > flat > > > > > > >too... > > > > > > >Barbara > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 5:13 PM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I reiterate, if the Creator did not intend for men to chase > down > > > > > > >animals, > > > > > > > > kill them and eat them...or to pull plants up by their roots > and > > > > > consume > > > > > > > > them...why did he make it necessary that we do so?? Why not > > > design > > > > a > > > > > > > > bio-system that didn't require this exchange? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not saying that man and the animals/plants don't relate > to > > > each > > > > > > >other, > > > > > > > > but to spiritually equate a squirrel with one of my children > > > defies > > > > > > >rational > > > > > > > > thought. I can certainly appreciate the sacredness of the > > > squirrel, > > > > > or > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > deer, or the bird. I can recognize the purpose they serve on > > this > > > > > > > > planet..the roll they play within the circle of life. I can > > (and > > > > do) > > > > > > >pay > > > > > > > > them honor and try to learn from them about the world around > me. > > > I > > > > > can > > > > > > >(and > > > > > > > > do) salute them and call them brother. But the fact remains, > > the > > > > > > >Creator > > > > > > > > put them here to be of service to me, not the other way > around. > > > Man > > > > > was > > > > > > >not > > > > > > > > created to serve the animals or the plants....to take care of > > them > > > > > > >perhaps, > > > > > > > > to be stewards of them, but not beneath them in the eyes of > the > > > > > > >Creator.... > > > > > > > > Do you feel you are the inferior of a snake? Or a toad? Or > an > > > > > insect? > > > > > > > > I'm curious what you feel your role i in the circle of life > is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 8:51 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think I was talking about where man placed > animals...I > > > > think > > > > > I > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > > talking about where Hashtali placed them and what Hashtali's > > > > purpose > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > placing them, and that to think Hashtali placed them for > human > > > use > > > > > is > > > > > > >a > > > > > > > > > mistake, just like thinking Hashtali placed the man there > for > > > the > > > > > > >lion's > > > > > > > > > use...I don't see what is so hard for you to understand in > > what > > > I > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > said...I know that to accept what I have said as valid at > all > > > > would > > > > > > > > require > > > > > > > > > a lot of re-evaluation about one's own views on reality, > which > > > > might > > > > > > > > entail > > > > > > > > > changes one would not want to make...but that is always up > to > > > the > > > > > > > > > individual...and many individuals prefer "herd mentality"... > > > > > > > > > Barbara > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:21 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logic is convoluted. To state that ancient man > placed > > > the > > > > > > >animals > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > killed for food or the plants he gathered for medicine on > > the > > > > same > > > > > > >level > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > he did his family members is patently ridiculous. If that > > > were > > > > > the > > > > > > >case > > > > > > > > > > there would never have been a deer killed, a fish eaten, a > > > bison > > > > > > > > butchered > > > > > > > > > > or a berry picked. It is a romantic notion that exists in > > > > > fantasy, > > > > > > >nice > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > think about, but impossible in reality. Fact is that > > man > > > > > chose > > > > > > >to > > > > > > > > > eat, > > > > > > > > > > clothe himself and survive as the Creator intended and he > > used > > > > the > > > > > > > > > resources > > > > > > > > > > around him. Had not the power of the Universe ordained > it > > > so, > > > > he > > > > > > >would > > > > > > > > > > have created a man who could draw nourishment from the air > > he > > > > > > > > > > breathed...like moss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be grateful for the chicken we have for dinner is > fine, > > > but > > > > > let' > > > > > > >s > > > > > > > > > face > > > > > > > > > > it...that chicken did not bid his loved ones goodbye and > lay > > > > down > > > > > on > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > chopping block. And the animals our ancestors ate did not > > > > > willingly > > > > > > > > walk > > > > > > > > > > into camp and say "Here I am..eat me." I personally think > > > that > > > > > > >paying > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > sort of respect for the life of an animal taken is a good > > > > > thing...we > > > > > > > > > > practice it in our family, and many post-kill hunting > > customs > > > > are > > > > > > > > holdover > > > > > > > > > s > > > > > > > > > > from those old ceremonies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stewardship of the earth dictates taking only what one > > needs, > > > > but > > > > > > >make > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > mistake, when man is hungry he will kill and eat whatever > is > > > > > > >available > > > > > > > > > > without hesitation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as your lion/man analogy...again...God-given > > > intelligence > > > > > > >plus > > > > > > > > free > > > > > > > > > > choice. The man could have stayed safe inside his house > and > > > not > > > > > > >walked > > > > > > > > > > where the lion was waiting. God takes the rap for a lot > of > > > > things > > > > > > >he's > > > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > > not responsible for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 1:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" > > without > > > > the > > > > > > >quotes > > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't > post > > it > > > > to > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without > > the > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > > >Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the > > > > quotes > > > > > > >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > >