You know, as I look back on my "raising", I see that even though we were told that we were Cherokee/Choctaw, we weren't given the religous culture in detail, but we were raised to follow the general Indian beliefs. Such as: environmental protection, respect to animals, and respect of elders. I had always thought of these as general "good ethics", but the more I look at people and the older I get, I realize that these were taught to me because they were taught to my father, and his father, and his father, etc. They were a "way of life" not something that my elders really thought about, just the way they had lived and those before them had lived. Does this make sense? I'm not so good at putting this stuff down in black and white. Take care and go safely! Tsana ----- Original Message ----- From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > Dusty one of the things I see as I am out and about doing shows and talking > to people is those people who connect with their long ago indigenous > Ancestors seem to have a better grasp of taking care of community and the > Earth.It is those who can't seem to find the connection that have a problem > with hearing. Arla > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 4:10 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting > them > > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with > what > > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all > into > > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge > > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things > go > > wrong. IMHO > > > > dusty > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > > knowledge > > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > > assimilation) > > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > > "beliefs", > > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a > better > > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > > trying > > > to > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > > good > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > > their > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It > is > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. > It > > is > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > > that > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > > Indians > > > and > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > > the > > > few > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes > us > > > to > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here > to > > > get? > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > > reverse > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > > This > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If > we > > > can > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > > After > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world > shaped > > > by > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > balance. > > > It > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we > went > > > to > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in > us > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a > white > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, > but > > > they > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to > put > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at > best > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > > slings > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > > our > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > > countless > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long > as > > > it's > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > > works > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > > name. > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > Isn't > > > that > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian > blood > > at > > > > all > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Makes perfect sense. Very similar to the way I was raised. The fact that we were "Indian" was hardly ever brought up. I can't remember ever being told that something was the "Indian" way to act....just the "right" way to act. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Tsa na Jordan <medicgirl78@yahoo.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > You know, as I look back on my "raising", I see that even though we were > told that we were Cherokee/Choctaw, we weren't given the religous culture in > detail, but we were raised to follow the general Indian beliefs. Such as: > environmental protection, respect to animals, and respect of elders. I had > always thought of these as general "good ethics", but the more I look at > people and the older I get, I realize that these were taught to me because > they were taught to my father, and his father, and his father, etc. They > were a "way of life" not something that my elders really thought about, just > the way they had lived and those before them had lived. Does this make > sense? I'm not so good at putting this stuff down in black and white. > Take care and go safely! > Tsana > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:32 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Dusty one of the things I see as I am out and about doing shows and > talking > > to people is those people who connect with their long ago indigenous > > Ancestors seem to have a better grasp of taking care of community and the > > Earth.It is those who can't seem to find the connection that have a > problem > > with hearing. Arla > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 4:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting > > them > > > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with > > what > > > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all > > into > > > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge > > > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make > things > > go > > > wrong. IMHO > > > > > > dusty > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > > > knowledge > > > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > > > assimilation) > > > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are > not > > > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > > > "beliefs", > > > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a > > better > > > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > > > B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > > > trying > > > > to > > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit > in. > > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions > of > > > > good > > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look > to > > > > their > > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. > It > > is > > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. > > It > > > is > > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing > is > > > > that > > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > > > Indians > > > > and > > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is > finding > > > the > > > > few > > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it > causes > > us > > > > to > > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here > > to > > > > get? > > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about > this > > > > reverse > > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our > own > > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live > with. > > > > This > > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. > If > > we > > > > can > > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > > > After > > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world > > shaped > > > > by > > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > > balance. > > > > It > > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we > > went > > > > to > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in > > us > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a > > white > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, > > but > > > > they > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to > > put > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at > > best > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > B. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > everyone's > > > > > slings > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > > > our > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > > > countless > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long > > as > > > > it's > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because > it > > > > works > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > derogatory > > > > name. > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > > Isn't > > > > that > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian > > blood > > > at > > > > > all > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > > quotes > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at > http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >