I don't know if good manners are Indian ways or southern ways, but I raised my children up to say yes mam and no sir, etc. One of mine came home from school one day and said to me "what". I asked her if I needed to wash out her mouth or her ears and asked did she speak to her teachers that way to which she responded, "Ms. Jones doesn't want me to call her Mam" to which I said "Ms Jones can have no manners if she wishes but that option is not open to you, you will call anyone that is 20 years older than you mam or sir." Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda Branum <mamalin@1s.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > All is well put thats for sure. I have always tried to teach my children > to say Yes Sir and No Sir and Yes Mame and No Mame.( Boy I don't think I > spelled that right <):-) > Some people think thats not right but to always respect your ELDERS is what > I have always been taught. My Dad taught me that and I do love him for that. > There are so many children who don't say that I have always been told that > my children were so polite and I feel that me teaching them that my Father > taught me is why they feel that way about my children. > Linda > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Makes perfect sense. Very similar to the way I was raised. The fact that > > we were "Indian" was hardly ever brought up. I can't remember ever being > > told that something was the "Indian" way to act....just the "right" way to > > act. > > > > dusty > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tsa na Jordan <medicgirl78@yahoo.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 11:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > You know, as I look back on my "raising", I see that even though we were > > > told that we were Cherokee/Choctaw, we weren't given the religous > culture > > in > > > detail, but we were raised to follow the general Indian beliefs. Such > as: > > > environmental protection, respect to animals, and respect of elders. I > > had > > > always thought of these as general "good ethics", but the more I look at > > > people and the older I get, I realize that these were taught to me > because > > > they were taught to my father, and his father, and his father, etc. > They > > > were a "way of life" not something that my elders really thought about, > > just > > > the way they had lived and those before them had lived. Does this make > > > sense? I'm not so good at putting this stuff down in black and white. > > > Take care and go safely! > > > Tsana > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:32 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Dusty one of the things I see as I am out and about doing shows and > > > talking > > > > to people is those people who connect with their long ago indigenous > > > > Ancestors seem to have a better grasp of taking care of community and > > the > > > > Earth.It is those who can't seem to find the connection that have a > > > problem > > > > with hearing. Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 4:10 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, > getting > > > > them > > > > > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune > > with > > > > what > > > > > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are > all > > > > into > > > > > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods > > knowledge > > > > > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make > > > things > > > > go > > > > > wrong. IMHO > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside > that > > is > > > > > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the > thick > > > > > > assimilation) > > > > > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we > are > > > not > > > > > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > > > > > "beliefs", > > > > > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race > of > > > > > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a > > > > better > > > > > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > > > > > B. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > > > > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through > life > > > > > trying > > > > > > to > > > > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't > fit > > > in. > > > > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's > > defintions > > > of > > > > > > good > > > > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to > > look > > > to > > > > > > their > > > > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel > comfortable. > > > It > > > > is > > > > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological > > characteristics. > > > > It > > > > > is > > > > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad > > thing > > > is > > > > > > that > > > > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up > around > > > > > Indians > > > > > > and > > > > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is > > > finding > > > > > the > > > > > > few > > > > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it > > > causes > > > > us > > > > > > to > > > > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they > > here > > > > to > > > > > > get? > > > > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about > > > this > > > > > > reverse > > > > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace > our > > > own > > > > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live > > > with. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new > generations. > > > If > > > > we > > > > > > can > > > > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great > > thing. > > > > > > After > > > > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a > world > > > > shaped > > > > > > by > > > > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > > > > balance. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something > > we > > > > went > > > > > > to > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > born > > in > > > > us > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by > a > > > > white > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > > things, > > > > but > > > > > > they > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts > > to > > > > put > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is > at > > > > best > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > everyone's > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just > > think > > > > > our > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've > > had > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as > > long > > > > as > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > > because > > > it > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > derogatory > > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > > > > Isn't > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > Indian > > > > blood > > > > > at > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > > the > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > > > > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... 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"Good manners" are not necessarily "good manners" in another. I grew up in the northwest and had never heard "Yes maam" and "No maam", "Yes sir" and "No sir". Not even when visiting relatives in the midwest had I heard this. We moved to Ga when I was 10 and when I would say "Yes" to a teacher, they would respond, "Yes, what?" And I would say, "No?" And they would say, "No, what?" I was without a clue and completely confused. What in the world did they want me to say? When I was finally informed what was going on, I considered it particularly rigorous, unsympathetic, and ignorant on the part of these adults to not understand that regional customs may just be that, regional. Indeed, in the situations in which I had grown up, the use of "Yes maam" etc. would have been suggestive to the ears of both pandering and subjugation. A simple yes or no was enough. What makes good manners is the spirit in which another individual is treated. Juli At 01:06 PM 4/8/01 -0700, you wrote: >I don't know if good manners are Indian ways or southern ways, but I raised >my children up to say yes mam and no sir, etc. One of mine came home from >school one day and said to me "what". I asked her if I needed to wash out >her mouth or her ears and asked did she speak to her teachers that way to >which she responded, "Ms. Jones doesn't want me to call her Mam" to which I >said "Ms Jones can have no manners if she wishes but that option is not open >to you, you will call anyone that is 20 years older than you mam or sir." >Fay >----- Original Message -----

Good point, Juli. As a "born in Louisiana, raised in the Northwest" person, I had the reverse happen. I was looked upon as being, shall we say, less bright than the other children when I first entered school in Seattle at age 10. Thankfully, this lasted only a short time, as my grades showed the teachers otherwise. I was also asked to speak more slowly, so as to be better understood. Believe it or not many Louisianians do NOT have a Southern drawl. Anyway, my mother is still a bit uncomfortable when my children don't add the "Ma'am" or "Sir" when speaking to her or her siblings. On the other hand, we have often been complimented for having "such well behaved kids." So, as you say, it's in manner or spirit of how the words are delivered. One can say "Yes, Ma'am" or "Yes Sir" and the VOICE can be dripping with sarcasm. Go in a good way, Tommie Juli Kearns wrote: > "Good manners" are not necessarily "good manners" in another. I grew up in > the northwest and had never heard "Yes maam" and "No maam", "Yes sir" and > "No sir". Not even when visiting relatives in the midwest had I heard > this. We moved to Ga when I was 10 and when I would say "Yes" to a > teacher, they would respond, "Yes, what?" And I would say, "No?" And they > would say, "No, what?" I was without a clue and completely confused. What > in the world did they want me to say? When I was finally informed what was > going on, I considered it particularly rigorous, unsympathetic, and > ignorant on the part of these adults to not understand that regional > customs may just be that, regional. Indeed, in the situations in which I > had grown up, the use of "Yes maam" etc. would have been suggestive to the > ears of both pandering and subjugation. A simple yes or no was enough. > > What makes good manners is the spirit in which another individual is treated. > > Juli > > At 01:06 PM 4/8/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I don't know if good manners are Indian ways or southern ways, but I raised > >my children up to say yes mam and no sir, etc. One of mine came home from > >school one day and said to me "what". I asked her if I needed to wash out > >her mouth or her ears and asked did she speak to her teachers that way to > >which she responded, "Ms. Jones doesn't want me to call her Mam" to which I > >said "Ms Jones can have no manners if she wishes but that option is not open > >to you, you will call anyone that is 20 years older than you mam or sir." > >Fay > >----- Original Message ----- > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc.

It all goes back to how you were raised and the degree of respect you were taught!! My father was in the military so I was raised to show respect for others, my elders and those of authority. Whether they deserved it or not!!! Me? I dispise being called "Sir"!! Jim jmorsn@coastalnet.com http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juli Kearns" <jmme@mindspring.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: Yes and no ma'am Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > "Good manners" are not necessarily "good manners" in another. I grew up in > the northwest and had never heard "Yes maam" and "No maam", "Yes sir" and > "No sir". Not even when visiting relatives in the midwest had I heard > this. We moved to Ga when I was 10 and when I would say "Yes" to a > teacher, they would respond, "Yes, what?" And I would say, "No?" And they > would say, "No, what?" I was without a clue and completely confused. What > in the world did they want me to say? When I was finally informed what was > going on, I considered it particularly rigorous, unsympathetic, and > ignorant on the part of these adults to not understand that regional > customs may just be that, regional. Indeed, in the situations in which I > had grown up, the use of "Yes maam" etc. would have been suggestive to the > ears of both pandering and subjugation. A simple yes or no was enough. > > What makes good manners is the spirit in which another individual is treated. > > Juli > > > At 01:06 PM 4/8/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I don't know if good manners are Indian ways or southern ways, but I raised > >my children up to say yes mam and no sir, etc. One of mine came home from > >school one day and said to me "what". I asked her if I needed to wash out > >her mouth or her ears and asked did she speak to her teachers that way to > >which she responded, "Ms. Jones doesn't want me to call her Mam" to which I > >said "Ms Jones can have no manners if she wishes but that option is not open > >to you, you will call anyone that is 20 years older than you mam or sir." > >Fay > >----- Original Message ----- > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. > >