Of course we all know that we can't say what the state of the Indian community is without taking the separate nations into account. I live in Connecticut, near the Pequots and Mohegans. These Indians have very low quantum and very small numbers because the eradication was so swift and merciless out here. Today they are doing extremely well financially but, because of what was been lost in the past, they have actually had to bring in non-members to reacquaint them with native traditions. I applaud their honesty in doing this. I also applaud their move in this direction. It is obvious to both me and them that Indian is a shallow word a without cultural sense to back it up. Then there are nations like the nations, like the Choctaw, Cherokee, and Seminole that have been split into several bands. I look at the MBCI vs. the OK Choctaw, The Ketoowah band of Cherokee and NC Cherokee vs. the OK Cherokee and I see huge differences in cultural integrity, community, and shared missions. For the western nations like the Hopi, whose cultures were assualted but whose people remained relatively close to their source, cultural integrity seems to be relatively high but so is poverty. So simply being part of a group does not cut it. Many of these groups have become corporations of sorts. It is hard for me to respect that. Then there are my sisters and brothers to the south who are still in armed warfare. People are still dying for this way of life. I hope everyone is aware of that. Personally, I know that blood means nothing if the individual doesn't draw on her ancestors as the foundation for herself. Walking away from ancestors requires a lot of effort, but I know many who have done it. It's hard to make yourself over into something you're not and so easy to return to who you are. Defining Indians by blood fails by my ancestors' measures (the Choctaw nation accepted many members of neighboring nations and cast out those who refused to abide by the code). Defining Indians by culture was what we did. But who decides on the culture when it has been splintered and turned upon itself so many times? That is the hard part. Until we sit down and determine where we should be it is premature to try to guide others. Obviously you can not give someone a multiple choice test to determine enrollment. This is a big issue, not only for ourselves but for the future of sovereignty. A sovereign nation should be able to accept any citizen that it wants but sovereignty is limited by America. As the Pequots grow wealthy, non-Indians look at them and say: Well they don't look Indian. Why do they get those special benefits? As the MBCI and OK Choctaws take in funds from gaming non-Indians say: Well that's not a very "Indian" thing to do (even if they are really wondering about their share). And yes some Indians are practicing racism. I can understand some motives, I don't understand others. But I do know one thing. I strive to be myself for only one group of people. Those are my ancestors. How others define me or what others think of me is completely irrelevant. I am half Indian and half African. I will never compromise that for anyone or anything. Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> wrote: Gemma and all: I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community still exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from other listmembers. What is the state of the Indian community today..... Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? Lifestyle? Beliefs? There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as to "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are "bloods". Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian enough". Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? Don't quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of that. I want the opinions of others on this list. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > Tommie > > Gemma West wrote: > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

Good words, Gemma! BTW, one of my old instructors was a person who was re-teaching Indian people some of their lost crafts. He had a government grant to go into the Indian communities and conduct classes in some of the old ways that had been lost. There are a few still carrying on with the spark that he provided in ingniting those old fires. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Gemma West <gemmawest@usa.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: [CHAHTA] Dusty, community > Of course we all know that we can't say what the state of the Indian community > is without taking the separate nations into account. I live in Connecticut, > near the Pequots and Mohegans. These Indians have very low quantum and very > small numbers because the eradication was so swift and merciless out here. > Today they are doing extremely well financially but, because of what was been > lost in the past, they have actually had to bring in non-members to reacquaint > them with native traditions. I applaud their honesty in doing this. I also > applaud their move in this direction. It is obvious to both me and them that > Indian is a shallow word a without cultural sense to back it up. > > Then there are nations like the nations, like the Choctaw, Cherokee, and > Seminole that have been split into several bands. I look at the MBCI vs. the > OK Choctaw, The Ketoowah band of Cherokee and NC Cherokee vs. the OK Cherokee > and I see huge differences in cultural integrity, community, and shared > missions. For the western nations like the Hopi, whose cultures were > assualted but whose people remained relatively close to their source, cultural > integrity seems to be relatively high but so is poverty. So simply being part > of a group does not cut it. Many of these groups have become corporations of > sorts. It is hard for me to respect that. > > Then there are my sisters and brothers to the south who are still in armed > warfare. People are still dying for this way of life. I hope everyone is > aware of that. > > Personally, I know that blood means nothing if the individual doesn't draw on > her ancestors as the foundation for herself. Walking away from ancestors > requires a lot of effort, but I know many who have done it. It's hard to make > yourself over into something you're not and so easy to return to who you are. > Defining Indians by blood fails by my ancestors' measures (the Choctaw nation > accepted many members of neighboring nations and cast out those who refused to > abide by the code). Defining Indians by culture was what we did. But who > decides on the culture when it has been splintered and turned upon itself so > many times? That is the hard part. Until we sit down and determine where we > should be it is premature to try to guide others. Obviously you can not give > someone a multiple choice test to determine enrollment. This is a big issue, > not only for ourselves but for the future of sovereignty. A sovereign nation > should be able to accept any citizen that it wants but sovereignty is limited > by America. As the Pequots grow wealthy, non-Indians look at them and say: > Well they don't look Indian. Why do they get those special benefits? As the > MBCI and OK Choctaws take in funds from gaming non-Indians say: Well that's > not a very "Indian" thing to do (even if they are really wondering about their > share). > > And yes some Indians are practicing racism. I can understand some motives, I > don't understand others. But I do know one thing. I strive to be myself for > only one group of people. Those are my ancestors. How others define me or > what others think of me is completely irrelevant. I am half Indian and half > African. I will never compromise that for anyone or anything. > > > Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> wrote: > Gemma and all: > > I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community still > exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many > different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from other > listmembers. > > What is the state of the Indian community today..... > Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? > Lifestyle? Beliefs? > > There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as to > "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are "bloods". > Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian enough". > Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? Don't > quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of that. > > I want the opinions of others on this list. > > dusty > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > Tommie > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > trying to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It > is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > Indians and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > the few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > balance. It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood > at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >