Webster's New World Dictionary defines intelligence as: the ability to learn or understand from experince. One of the most intelligent animals (other than man) is the dolphin, but you don't hear stories about them. Nor does anybody take their name. Why? Please share with me a story from one of these "story telling animals". Maybe it will be easier to understand than to just have you tell me "...those of us who allow ourselves to listen...". I have changed the subject line again. This has got so far away from what it started out as!! Jim jmorsn@coastalnet.com http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 12:24 PM Subject: [CHAHTA] Jim, intelligence > Every creature has its own way of communicating. For those of us who allow > ourselves to listen and observe, the stories of the animals are obvious. The > lessons are clear. Storytelling is useless if we refuse to take the time to > listen. Most of us have 5 senses, some of us have more than 5 but all of us > can put forth the effort to use these senses to derive knowledge. > > I don't have a working definition for intelligence so I can't say whether or > not it is the same thing as wisdom. Every time I think I've found such a > defintion, I realize that it falls short. Defining things doesn't always > work. After all language has its limitations and we can't always afford to be > limited. A lot is lost. However I think that branding a creature as less > intelligenct is simply another way to say that one is better than the other. > That is completely incompatible with everything I have learned. At the most > basic level, everything is neutral. Assigning adjectives like stupid, > intelligent, good, and bad are only a reflection of you, not the object that > is being described. > > > > > "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> wrote: > Lets see now....Is "intelligence" the same as "wisdom"? > This "animal" you are refering to has a HUGE amount of unused > "intelligence". Through Trial and Error this "animal" is gaining the > "wisdom" to put this "intelligence" to work for him. > As for YOUR disapproval as to what this newly appointed "animal" is doing: > Three years from now YOU had better be out there campaining for the ONE you > beleive in!! > You may have kicked sand in my face on this last one, BUT if the animals in > the stories have soooooo much wisdom to share, why are THEY not telling the > story? > Jim > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 11:14 AM > Subject: [CHAHTA] Jim, intelligence > > > > Well Jim that would have to depend on your definition of intelligence. > > Computer scientists, working in the field on "Arficial Intelligence" can't > > even come to a consensus what that word means. What's your take on this > term? > > > > > > Let's not forget there is a certain animal who is trying to determine how > to > > sustain enclosed enviorments in the middle of the desert so that we can > move > > to Mars. This animal has also built a huge solar space station (now the > third > > brightest object in the sky) to determine how life can be sustained > outside of > > this planet. So somehow this animal has concluded that taking care of the > > beautiful planet we already live on is either more difficult or less > desirable > > than turning unsustainable environments into sustainable ones. A certain > > animal, one who has just been appointed president of a large polulation of > > these animals, has recently decided to keep his nation out of an > environmental > > conference. He cites economic growth as a reasonable alternative to > having a > > livable atmosphere. This type of behavior does not fit my definition of > > intelligence. How about yours? > > > > As far as evolution. Other animals are continuously undergoing evolution > just > > as we are. It is a Chahta principle that all things are constantly > changing. > > Do you think it is consistent with Chahta beliefs to say that other > animals > > are less intelligent than we are? In many of our stories , our lessons > are > > taught to us by other animals. These animals are referred to as knowledge > > givers. It's inconsistent to learn from someone who is less intelligent > than > > you are isn't it? > > > > "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> wrote: > > Hi Barb > > I totally disagree. What animal has more intellegence than man? What other > > animal has evolved as far as man has? > > And lets not forget that man himself is an animal!! > > Jim > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Barbara Ellison" <greybird7@pisp.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 1:49 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > Hi Jim... > > > Elkdreamer's point was that man is not superior to animals. > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 1:57 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > Elk > > > > I have to disagree with you. MAN is not the weakest animal on earth, > nor > > > the > > > > slowest. HE is one of the most intelligent which has caused him to > > become > > > > very lazy. > > > > I have never been inside a "sweat lodge", but by design I would think > > you > > > > have to enter on your hands and knees to help keep the heat inside. > Not > > to > > > > degrade you to the point you feel you are an animal. Tell me > something: > > > > which animal do you know of that starts a fire under rocks and then > > pours > > > > water on them to creat steam so that they can sit inside sweat and > > > meditate? > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 5:44 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito again Barbara > > > > > Man is the weakest animal on mother earth. The only thing that has > > > > helped > > > > > us to survive is our ability to think. Every other animal has > sharper > > > > teeth > > > > > can run faster etc. When you go into a sweat lodge you do so on your > > > hands > > > > > and knees to remind us that we are still animals, and part of the > > circle > > > > of > > > > > life here on Mother Earth. > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:06:30 -0600 > > > > > > > > > > > >Again, speaking of animals..we know it is NOT necessary that we > > consume > > > > > >their bodies...and if you really want to keep including plants..we > > > don't > > > > > >have to kill those to eat parts of them...but I was really talking > > > about > > > > > >animals... > > > > > >And do you really think YOU mean as much to a squirrel as her own > > baby > > > > > >does? > > > > > >As for me..in many ways I feel equal to the snake, toad, and > > > insect...but > > > > > >in > > > > > >many more I feel inferior being the species I am...it would seem > that > > > in > > > > > >most cases, a squirrel knows better how to be a squirrel than a > human > > > > does > > > > > >a > > > > > >human...I still think it is very egocentric to think that animals > > were > > > > put > > > > > >here for human use....Then again..some people think the earth is > flat > > > > > >too... > > > > > >Barbara > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 5:13 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I reiterate, if the Creator did not intend for men to chase down > > > > > >animals, > > > > > > > kill them and eat them...or to pull plants up by their roots and > > > > consume > > > > > > > them...why did he make it necessary that we do so?? Why not > > design > > > a > > > > > > > bio-system that didn't require this exchange? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not saying that man and the animals/plants don't relate to > > each > > > > > >other, > > > > > > > but to spiritually equate a squirrel with one of my children > > defies > > > > > >rational > > > > > > > thought. I can certainly appreciate the sacredness of the > > squirrel, > > > > or > > > > > >the > > > > > > > deer, or the bird. I can recognize the purpose they serve on > this > > > > > > > planet..the roll they play within the circle of life. I can > (and > > > do) > > > > > >pay > > > > > > > them honor and try to learn from them about the world around me. > > I > > > > can > > > > > >(and > > > > > > > do) salute them and call them brother. But the fact remains, > the > > > > > >Creator > > > > > > > put them here to be of service to me, not the other way around. > > Man > > > > was > > > > > >not > > > > > > > created to serve the animals or the plants....to take care of > them > > > > > >perhaps, > > > > > > > to be stewards of them, but not beneath them in the eyes of the > > > > > >Creator.... > > > > > > > Do you feel you are the inferior of a snake? Or a toad? Or an > > > > insect? > > > > > > > I'm curious what you feel your role i in the circle of life is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 8:51 AM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think I was talking about where man placed animals...I > > > think > > > > I > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > talking about where Hashtali placed them and what Hashtali's > > > purpose > > > > > >was > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > placing them, and that to think Hashtali placed them for human > > use > > > > is > > > > > >a > > > > > > > > mistake, just like thinking Hashtali placed the man there for > > the > > > > > >lion's > > > > > > > > use...I don't see what is so hard for you to understand in > what > > I > > > > have > > > > > > > > said...I know that to accept what I have said as valid at all > > > would > > > > > > > require > > > > > > > > a lot of re-evaluation about one's own views on reality, which > > > might > > > > > > > entail > > > > > > > > changes one would not want to make...but that is always up to > > the > > > > > > > > individual...and many individuals prefer "herd mentality"... > > > > > > > > Barbara > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:21 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: Choctaw Christian Culture > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logic is convoluted. To state that ancient man placed > > the > > > > > >animals > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > killed for food or the plants he gathered for medicine on > the > > > same > > > > > >level > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > he did his family members is patently ridiculous. If that > > were > > > > the > > > > > >case > > > > > > > > > there would never have been a deer killed, a fish eaten, a > > bison > > > > > > > butchered > > > > > > > > > or a berry picked. It is a romantic notion that exists in > > > > fantasy, > > > > > >nice > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > think about, but impossible in reality. Fact is that > man > > > > chose > > > > > >to > > > > > > > > eat, > > > > > > > > > clothe himself and survive as the Creator intended and he > used > > > the > > > > > > > > resources > > > > > > > > > around him. Had not the power of the Universe ordained it > > so, > > > he > > > > > >would > > > > > > > > > have created a man who could draw nourishment from the air > he > > > > > > > > > breathed...like moss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be grateful for the chicken we have for dinner is fine, > > but > > > > let' > > > > > >s > > > > > > > > face > > > > > > > > > it...that chicken did not bid his loved ones goodbye and lay > > > down > > > > on > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > chopping block. And the animals our ancestors ate did not > > > > willingly > > > > > > > walk > > > > > > > > > into camp and say "Here I am..eat me." I personally think > > that > > > > > >paying > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > sort of respect for the life of an animal taken is a good > > > > thing...we > > > > > > > > > practice it in our family, and many post-kill hunting > customs > > > are > > > > > > > holdover > > > > > > > > s > > > > > > > > > from those old ceremonies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stewardship of the earth dictates taking only what one > needs, > > > but > > > > > >make > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > mistake, when man is hungry he will kill and eat whatever is > > > > > >available > > > > > > > > > without hesitation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as your lion/man analogy...again...God-given > > intelligence > > > > > >plus > > > > > > > free > > > > > > > > > choice. The man could have stayed safe inside his house and > > not > > > > > >walked > > > > > > > > > where the lion was waiting. God takes the rap for a lot of > > > things > > > > > >he's > > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > not responsible for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 1:53 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Fw: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" > without > > > the > > > > > >quotes > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post > it > > > to > > > > > >the > > > > > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without > the > > > > quotes > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > >Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the > > > quotes > > > > > >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. > >