What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It seems that they need these principles much more than we do. Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's slings > and arrows... > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had countless > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > TRUE racism? > > dusty > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at all > > > Walk in Beauty > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no knowledge of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick assimilation) And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of "beliefs", and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > B. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > slings > > and arrows... > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > countless > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > TRUE racism? > > > > dusty > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > all > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting them to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with what is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all into technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things go wrong. IMHO dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no knowledge > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > assimilation) > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of "beliefs", > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > B. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying > to > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > good > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > their > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > that > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians > and > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the > few > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > to > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > get? > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > reverse > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > This > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > can > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > After > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > by > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. > It > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

you know what dusty god always kept brothers apart from each other the danites over here and the davidites in another area or the whites in one area and the indains in another area etc i just think thats the way; its supposed to be ----- Original Message ----- From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting them > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with what > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all into > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things go > wrong. IMHO > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > knowledge > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > assimilation) > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > "beliefs", > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > trying > > to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It > is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > Indians > > and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > the > > few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > > to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > > get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > > can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > > by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > balance. > > It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > > to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > > they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > > it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > > that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood > at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com >

Dusty one of the things I see as I am out and about doing shows and talking to people is those people who connect with their long ago indigenous Ancestors seem to have a better grasp of taking care of community and the Earth.It is those who can't seem to find the connection that have a problem with hearing. Arla ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting them > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with what > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all into > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things go > wrong. IMHO > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > knowledge > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > assimilation) > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > "beliefs", > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > trying > > to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It > is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > Indians > > and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > the > > few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > > to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > > get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > > can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > > by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > balance. > > It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > > to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > > they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > > it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > > that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood > at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > >

GOOD WORDS, Gemma. Thanks. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Gemma West <gemmawest@usa.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > B. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > slings > > and arrows... > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > countless > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > TRUE racism? > > > > dusty > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > all > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

Well put, Gemma. I agree. Tommie Gemma West wrote: > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > B. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > slings > > and arrows... > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > countless > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > TRUE racism? > > > > dusty > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > all > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures.......

Gemma and all: I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community still exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from other listmembers. What is the state of the Indian community today..... Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? Lifestyle? Beliefs? There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as to "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are "bloods". Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian enough". Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? Don't quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of that. I want the opinions of others on this list. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > Tommie > > Gemma West wrote: > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

What Gemma said! Gemma, seriously, that was nicely worded! I like the way you think and write - to the point with great explanations that don't take all day like when I write! Take care all! Tsana ----- Original Message ----- From: Gemma West <gemmawest@usa.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > B. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > slings > > and arrows... > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > countless > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > TRUE racism? > > > > dusty > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > all > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com