Thanks Dusty. Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > I like to start with the people who were there in the beginning. I like the > book "Social and Ceremonial Customs of the Choctaw", I believe by Swanton. > > However, ceremonies and customs evolve, changing with time and situations. > Talk to all the Choctaw elders you can find. It may be a good idea to let > them get to know you before asking too many questions, but some are quite > open to questions. > > Attend all the Choctaw events you can find, and read all you can find. > Spirituality is a very personal and individual matter, and not everyone > practices their faith and traditions alike because not everyone believes the > same thing. You'll have to find what's best for you and your heart will > tell you. Do what you are comfortable with and DON't do what makes you > uncomfortable. > > If someone suggests you try new things, find out about that person and their > sincerity, reputation, etc first. Ask other people what they think of that > individual. Be very careful in your choice of mentors. Don't take the > chance of opening yourself up to forces that you cannot control just to do > the "in" thing at the moment. If it doesn't "feel" right....DON'T DO IT. > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kris Harapan <harapank@wwdb.org> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 12:20 AM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > I guess what I need is something to help me get more specific. I can do > > legal and historical research and track down facts. What I have a hard > time > > with is finding a reputable source of information on Choctaw spiritual > > traditions. Perhaps my first question should be what have others found to > > be most helpful to them? > > > > Kris > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 7:27 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Halito Kris > > > How are you going to know if you know enough if you don't ask > question's > > > now. The only stupid question is the one not asked. Jump in and get your > > > feet wet<G> > > > Walk in Beauty > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Kris Harapan" <harapank@wwdb.org> > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > >Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:01:56 -0700 > > > > > > > >Dusty, > > > > > > > >Not new to the list, but too new to studying my Choctaw heritage to > know > > > >where to begin asking questions. I have known since before I was in > high > > > >school that I was of NA descent. I tried to read about it then, but I > > got > > > >upset reading about the history of removals and broken treaties. We > > lived > > > >overseas and all I could get was extremely sanitized versions of > history, > > > >but it still made me mad. My mother took any such books away from me > and > > > >would not let me read about NA history again. She made quite an > > > >impression. > > > >I haven't lived under her roof for over 10 years, but it has taken me > > this > > > >long to find my way back where I first started my search. > > > > > > > >I may not have joined in the discussion, but I have learned from it. > It > > > >has > > > >helped me to give my personal search some badly needed focus. > > > > > > > >Keep the discussion going. When I know enough to ask the right > > questions, > > > >I'll jump in. > > > > > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > > >Kris > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > >Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:58 PM > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kris: > > > > > > > > > > Are you new to this list? That's what we've been doing the last > week > > or > > > >so. > > > > > And in doing so, our list shrank from about 100 down to 68 as of > this > > > > > morning. In the past 10 days I've received mail that ranged from > mild > > > > > chiding to words that a sailor that had been to sea for seven years > > > >wouldn't > > > > > think of. Stick around, the subject will come back up again! > <LOL> > > > > > > > > > > If you have questons, please ask. Someone here may be able to > answer. > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Kris Harapan <harapank@wwdb.org> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 10:22 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tsana, > > > > > > > > > > > > I second this. Having recently begun a spiritual quest of my own, > I > > > >have > > > > > > been looking for a forum (online and off) that would support me in > > > >asking > > > > > > questions, without trying to force me onto a given path. I have > > just > > > >left > > > > > > that route behind, and would very much like to find the path that > is > > > >right > > > > > > for me. What seems to be the hardest right now is finding a > > reputable > > > > > > source for guidance into exploring new areas, and having a place > > where > > > >it > > > > > is > > > > > > okay to have questions. Am open to any suggestions others might > > have. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know the recent discussions have been a bit hard on some, but I > > have > > > > > found > > > > > > it to be quite helpful. I know concern has been expressed about > > using > > > > > this > > > > > > forum for spiritual discussions, what would be the possibility of > > > >having > > > >a > > > > > > list for discussion of traditional Choctaw beliefs, the impact of > > > >outside > > > > > > religions on those beliefs, and how this impacts their descendents > > > >today? > > > > > > Would their be enough interest to support something like that? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kris > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Tsa na Jordan <medicgirl78@yahoo.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:52 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara, > > > > > > > I, like, Patsy, beg to differ. The only difference, it > seems, > > > > > between > > > > > > > you and I is that you had a chance to grow up with and learn the > > > >Choctaw > > > > > > > > > > > > culture from your family, elders, etc. I, on the other hand, > did > > > >not > > > > > have > > > > > > > that luxury. Now, it's no fault of mine, nor of my family. > They > > > >did > > > > > what > > > > > > > they thought best for the family at the time. OK, so does that > > mean > > > > > that > > > > > > I > > > > > > > am not as interested? NO. Does that mean that I can't learn a > > lot > > > > > about > > > > > > it > > > > > > > from the internet, books, elders, other tribal members, etc.? > NO. > > > >Does > > > > > > it > > > > > > > mean that I can become as knowledgable as you who grew up with > it? > > > >YES. > > > > > > I > > > > > > > will probably never know all that you do, nor will that bother > me. > > > >I > > > > > want > > > > > > > to learn my family's history and culture. Does it mean that I > may > > > >adopt > > > > > > > some of the beliefs I learn about? PROBABLY since I've already > > > >adopted > > > > > > some > > > > > > > of the Cherokee beliefs. Does it mean that you are a better > > > >"Indian" > > > > > than > > > > > > > I? NOPE. Does it mean that you are a better person, in > general, > > > >than > > > > > I? > > > > > > > NOPE. > > > > > > > I would appreciate your sharing some of the ways of the > > Choctaw > > > > > since > > > > > > > you are so educated in those ways. Now, I'm fully aware that > > there > > > >are > > > > > > some > > > > > > > things that simply aren't meant to be on the internet, and I > > respect > > > > > that. > > > > > > > So, sister, I lay down my bundle of tobacco beside you and ask > in > > a > > > >good > > > > > > > way - will you help me learn? I ask this with all respect. > But, > > > >with > > > > > the > > > > > > > same respect I'm also saying that I don't want to debate or > argue. > > > >If > > > > > > > you're willing to sharing information, I'm your sponge, here to > > soak > > > >it > > > > > > all > > > > > > > up! > > > > > > > Thanks, Barbara! > > > > > > > Tsana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:12 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can i disagree to that because the more i learn about my > choctaw > > > > > > heritage > > > > > > > > the more spiritual i become > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:49 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not > > something > > > >we > > > > > > went > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > > > >born > > > >in > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised > surrounded > > by > > > >a > > > > > > white > > > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > > > >things, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their > > attempts > > > >to > > > > > > put > > > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, > > is > > > >at > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > > > everyone's > > > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but > just > > > >think > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. > > I've > > > >had > > > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, > > as > > > >long > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > > > >because > > > > > it > > > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > > > derogatory > > > > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant > to > > do > > > >so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so > > exclusive? > > > > > > Isn't > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > > > >Indian > > > > > > blood > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail > list: > > > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" > > without > > > >the > > > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off > signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > the > > > >quotes > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without > the > > > >quotes > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > >Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > > > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

Hi Jim, My Kirby comes from my Dad's side. His Mother was Choctaw and a Guynes Living in Atoka Co. , Okla when she was enrolled. Dad was born in 1924 in Clarita, Okla. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 1:15 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > Well then I should be concern only with the latest couple? That would be my > grand mother who was suppose to be part Cherokee Indian. She was a CHISHOLM > from Hayti, MO. > > The one I thought was the best canidate though was my great grand mother. I > thought for sure she was Choctaw Indian. She was a SHEPPERD from Wetumka, > AL. Her grand father was Uriah WILLIAMS. > > Linda, where does KIRBY come into your name? I have a WILLIAMS that was > married to a KIRBY. > Jim > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Linda Branum" <mamalin@1s.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 1:20 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > > > > Hi Jim, > > I do know that in some of the papers I have on my family members. We are > > Choctaw but my Great Uncle William Guynes married a Chickasaw woman and > > their children are listed in the Chickasaw rolls. > > If I am wrong please someone correct me. William is listed as 1/2 > Choctaw > > and Margaret James Guynes is listed as 3/4 Chickasaw. Its my understanding > > that the greater Indian blood line would be who the children are listed > > with. I have also heard that the children were listed with the mothers > side > > too. > > I think that is why there is such a problem with the black ancestors who > > had Indian fathers. They were listed with their mother who was black and > > can't claim their Indian rights. Does anyone know the law about this. If I > > stand corrected please feel free to correct me. > > I think this is wrong to not let them have their Indian Heritage but so > > many things were wrong back then. > > Linda Kirby Branum > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 4:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > Hate to "nit pick", but here is MY problem with the suggestion: > > > My great great grand mother MAY have been Chickasaw Indian from Gibson > > > County, TN. She was born 1837. > > > My great grand mother was almost without doubt Chocataw Indian from > > Chambers > > > County, AL. She was born 1856. > > > My grand mother was suppose to have been part Cherokee Indian from > Hayti, > > > MO. She was born 1907. > > > > > > If any of these women are on any of the "Final Rolls" or any of their > kin, > > I > > > have not been able to locate them!! Which "tribe" should I claim? > > > BTW > > > These are all my FATHER'S grand mothers. > > > Jim > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Linda Branum" <mamalin@1s.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dusty and all, > > > > I want to say that my brother looks full blood Indian but we are > just > > > > 1/32. I don't look a bit like and Indian but I have the same amt of > > blood > > > as > > > > he does. > > > > I feel the amt of Indian doesn't matter. We are all brothers and > > sisters > > > > just some of us have proof and others don't. > > > > I think we should all remember TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL. > All > > of > > > > us need to unite together and stop worring about how much blood we > have > > > but > > > > our people were all at one time full blood so who cares if you are > full > > or > > > > just a little. You are still my sister and brother and all are NA. > > > > Regards, Linda Kirby Branum > > > > > > > > (Guynes and Sain are my Indian heritage surnames) Guynes being > Choctaw > > > and > > > > documented and Sain Cherokee undocumented. But I feel ancestors > calling > > > from > > > > both!! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:29 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma and all: > > > > > > > > > > I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community > > > still > > > > > exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many > > > > > different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from > > other > > > > > listmembers. > > > > > > > > > > What is the state of the Indian community today..... > > > > > Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? > > > > > Lifestyle? Beliefs? > > > > > > > > > > There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA > as > > > to > > > > > "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are > > > "bloods". > > > > > Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian > > enough". > > > > > Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? > > > Don't > > > > > quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of > > that. > > > > > > > > > > I want the opinions of others on this list. > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > > > > > Tommie > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through > life > > > > > trying to > > > > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't > fit > > > in. > > > > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's > > defintions > > > of > > > > > good > > > > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to > > look > > > to > > > > > their > > > > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel > comfortable. > > > It > > > > is > > > > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological > > characteristics. > > > > It > > > > > is > > > > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad > > thing > > > is > > > > > that > > > > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up > around > > > > > Indians and > > > > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is > > > finding > > > > > the few > > > > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it > > > causes > > > > us > > > > > to > > > > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they > > here > > > > to > > > > > get? > > > > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about > > > this > > > > > reverse > > > > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace > our > > > own > > > > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live > > > with. > > > > > This > > > > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new > generations. > > > If > > > > we > > > > > can > > > > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great > > thing. > > > > > After > > > > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a > world > > > > shaped > > > > > by > > > > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > > > > balance. It > > > > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something > > we > > > > went > > > > > to > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > born > > in > > > > us > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by > a > > > > white > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > > things, > > > > but > > > > > they > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts > > to > > > > put > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is > at > > > > best > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > everyone's > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just > > think > > > > > our > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've > > had > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as > > long > > > > as > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > > because > > > it > > > > > works > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > derogatory > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > > > > Isn't > > > > > that > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > Indian > > > > blood > > > > > at > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > > the > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > > > > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > > quotes > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to > the > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

Hi Jim, Some people don't and if told my children and I will respect your wishes. Regards, Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 1:29 AM Subject: Re: Yes and no ma'am Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > It all goes back to how you were raised and the degree of respect you were > taught!! My father was in the military so I was raised to show respect for > others, my elders and those of authority. Whether they deserved it or not!!! > > Me? I dispise being called "Sir"!! > Jim > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Juli Kearns" <jmme@mindspring.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 2:49 PM > Subject: Yes and no ma'am Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > "Good manners" are not necessarily "good manners" in another. I grew up > in > > the northwest and had never heard "Yes maam" and "No maam", "Yes sir" and > > "No sir". Not even when visiting relatives in the midwest had I heard > > this. We moved to Ga when I was 10 and when I would say "Yes" to a > > teacher, they would respond, "Yes, what?" And I would say, "No?" And they > > would say, "No, what?" I was without a clue and completely confused. > What > > in the world did they want me to say? When I was finally informed what > was > > going on, I considered it particularly rigorous, unsympathetic, and > > ignorant on the part of these adults to not understand that regional > > customs may just be that, regional. Indeed, in the situations in which I > > had grown up, the use of "Yes maam" etc. would have been suggestive to the > > ears of both pandering and subjugation. A simple yes or no was enough. > > > > What makes good manners is the spirit in which another individual is > treated. > > > > Juli > > > > > > At 01:06 PM 4/8/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >I don't know if good manners are Indian ways or southern ways, but I > raised > > >my children up to say yes mam and no sir, etc. One of mine came home > from > > >school one day and said to me "what". I asked her if I needed to wash > out > > >her mouth or her ears and asked did she speak to her teachers that way to > > >which she responded, "Ms. Jones doesn't want me to call her Mam" to which > I > > >said "Ms Jones can have no manners if she wishes but that option is not > open > > >to you, you will call anyone that is 20 years older than you mam or > sir." > > >Fay > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at > http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

OK Dusty THANKS!! Jim jmorsn@coastalnet.com http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > Who knows? It doesn't matter....we started with 1 or 2 and we can do it > again. A few have told me it was because of the volume of mail, but most > just unsub without any sort of communication. Don't worry about it! As > long as everyone respects my guidelines, I'm OK. If I get un-OK, believe > me, I will let you guys know real quick!! <lol> > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Morrison, Jr. <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 5:38 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > Dusty > > Have that many dropped because of the conversation that WE have been > engaged > > in? I have stopped responding to some of the "comments" for that reason. > > Jim > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 3:58 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Kris: > > > > > > Are you new to this list? That's what we've been doing the last week or > > so. > > > And in doing so, our list shrank from about 100 down to 68 as of this > > > morning. In the past 10 days I've received mail that ranged from mild > > > chiding to words that a sailor that had been to sea for seven years > > wouldn't > > > think of. Stick around, the subject will come back up again! <LOL> > > > > > > If you have questons, please ask. Someone here may be able to answer. > > > > > > dusty > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Kris Harapan <harapank@wwdb.org> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 10:22 AM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Tsana, > > > > > > > > I second this. Having recently begun a spiritual quest of my own, I > > have > > > > been looking for a forum (online and off) that would support me in > > asking > > > > questions, without trying to force me onto a given path. I have just > > left > > > > that route behind, and would very much like to find the path that is > > right > > > > for me. What seems to be the hardest right now is finding a reputable > > > > source for guidance into exploring new areas, and having a place where > > it > > > is > > > > okay to have questions. Am open to any suggestions others might have. > > > > > > > > I know the recent discussions have been a bit hard on some, but I have > > > found > > > > it to be quite helpful. I know concern has been expressed about using > > > this > > > > forum for spiritual discussions, what would be the possibility of > having > > a > > > > list for discussion of traditional Choctaw beliefs, the impact of > > outside > > > > religions on those beliefs, and how this impacts their descendents > > today? > > > > Would their be enough interest to support something like that? > > > > > > > > Kris > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Tsa na Jordan <medicgirl78@yahoo.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:52 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara, > > > > > I, like, Patsy, beg to differ. The only difference, it seems, > > > between > > > > > you and I is that you had a chance to grow up with and learn the > > Choctaw > > > > > > > > culture from your family, elders, etc. I, on the other hand, did > not > > > have > > > > > that luxury. Now, it's no fault of mine, nor of my family. They > did > > > what > > > > > they thought best for the family at the time. OK, so does that mean > > > that > > > > I > > > > > am not as interested? NO. Does that mean that I can't learn a lot > > > about > > > > it > > > > > from the internet, books, elders, other tribal members, etc.? NO. > > Does > > > > it > > > > > mean that I can become as knowledgable as you who grew up with it? > > YES. > > > > I > > > > > will probably never know all that you do, nor will that bother me. > I > > > want > > > > > to learn my family's history and culture. Does it mean that I may > > adopt > > > > > some of the beliefs I learn about? PROBABLY since I've already > > adopted > > > > some > > > > > of the Cherokee beliefs. Does it mean that you are a better > "Indian" > > > than > > > > > I? NOPE. Does it mean that you are a better person, in general, > than > > > I? > > > > > NOPE. > > > > > I would appreciate your sharing some of the ways of the Choctaw > > > since > > > > > you are so educated in those ways. Now, I'm fully aware that there > > are > > > > some > > > > > things that simply aren't meant to be on the internet, and I respect > > > that. > > > > > So, sister, I lay down my bundle of tobacco beside you and ask in a > > good > > > > > way - will you help me learn? I ask this with all respect. But, > with > > > the > > > > > same respect I'm also saying that I don't want to debate or argue. > If > > > > > you're willing to sharing information, I'm your sponge, here to soak > > it > > > > all > > > > > up! > > > > > Thanks, Barbara! > > > > > Tsana > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:12 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can i disagree to that because the more i learn about my choctaw > > > > heritage > > > > > > the more spiritual i become > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:49 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something > > we > > > > went > > > > > > to > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > born > > in > > > > us > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by > a > > > > white > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > > things, > > > > but > > > > > > they > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts > > to > > > > put > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is > at > > > > best > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > everyone's > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just > > think > > > > > our > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've > > had > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as > > long > > > > as > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > > because > > > it > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > derogatory > > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > > > > Isn't > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > Indian > > > > blood > > > > > at > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > > the > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the > > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > >

Now Jim That was not a nice thing to say to someone. Remember everyone see's thing's differently, that is the beauty of being Human. The difference's of opinion and the decussion about it is what makes this Circle work. Disagreement is alright, but with respect for each other. Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Jim, Never ending quest >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 02:38:06 -0400 > >Don't worry. It is obvious that you do not concern yourself with >intelligence. >Jim > >jmorsn@coastalnet.com >http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 3:09 PM >Subject: [CHAHTA] Jim, Never ending quest > > > > It should be clear to you that I don't concern myself with Webster's > > definition of intelligence. If not then let me assure you of this fact. > > > > Frankly your whole demeanor on this list reeks of disrespect or >playground > > taunting. Your referral to people not choosing to name themselves afer > > dolphins is just another in a long line of examples. But, of course, I >may be > > completely wrong. If you do indeed have Indian ancestors I hope that >their > > spirits prevail on you to change. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Gemma > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Don't worry. It is obvious that you do not concern yourself with intelligence. Jim jmorsn@coastalnet.com http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 3:09 PM Subject: [CHAHTA] Jim, Never ending quest > It should be clear to you that I don't concern myself with Webster's > definition of intelligence. If not then let me assure you of this fact. > > Frankly your whole demeanor on this list reeks of disrespect or playground > taunting. Your referral to people not choosing to name themselves afer > dolphins is just another in a long line of examples. But, of course, I may be > completely wrong. If you do indeed have Indian ancestors I hope that their > spirits prevail on you to change. > > Cheers, > > Gemma > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > >

It all goes back to how you were raised and the degree of respect you were taught!! My father was in the military so I was raised to show respect for others, my elders and those of authority. Whether they deserved it or not!!! Me? I dispise being called "Sir"!! Jim jmorsn@coastalnet.com http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juli Kearns" <jmme@mindspring.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: Yes and no ma'am Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > "Good manners" are not necessarily "good manners" in another. I grew up in > the northwest and had never heard "Yes maam" and "No maam", "Yes sir" and > "No sir". Not even when visiting relatives in the midwest had I heard > this. We moved to Ga when I was 10 and when I would say "Yes" to a > teacher, they would respond, "Yes, what?" And I would say, "No?" And they > would say, "No, what?" I was without a clue and completely confused. What > in the world did they want me to say? When I was finally informed what was > going on, I considered it particularly rigorous, unsympathetic, and > ignorant on the part of these adults to not understand that regional > customs may just be that, regional. Indeed, in the situations in which I > had grown up, the use of "Yes maam" etc. would have been suggestive to the > ears of both pandering and subjugation. A simple yes or no was enough. > > What makes good manners is the spirit in which another individual is treated. > > Juli > > > At 01:06 PM 4/8/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I don't know if good manners are Indian ways or southern ways, but I raised > >my children up to say yes mam and no sir, etc. One of mine came home from > >school one day and said to me "what". I asked her if I needed to wash out > >her mouth or her ears and asked did she speak to her teachers that way to > >which she responded, "Ms. Jones doesn't want me to call her Mam" to which I > >said "Ms Jones can have no manners if she wishes but that option is not open > >to you, you will call anyone that is 20 years older than you mam or sir." > >Fay > >----- Original Message ----- > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. > >

Well then I should be concern only with the latest couple? That would be my grand mother who was suppose to be part Cherokee Indian. She was a CHISHOLM from Hayti, MO. The one I thought was the best canidate though was my great grand mother. I thought for sure she was Choctaw Indian. She was a SHEPPERD from Wetumka, AL. Her grand father was Uriah WILLIAMS. Linda, where does KIRBY come into your name? I have a WILLIAMS that was married to a KIRBY. Jim jmorsn@coastalnet.com http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Branum" <mamalin@1s.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > Hi Jim, > I do know that in some of the papers I have on my family members. We are > Choctaw but my Great Uncle William Guynes married a Chickasaw woman and > their children are listed in the Chickasaw rolls. > If I am wrong please someone correct me. William is listed as 1/2 Choctaw > and Margaret James Guynes is listed as 3/4 Chickasaw. Its my understanding > that the greater Indian blood line would be who the children are listed > with. I have also heard that the children were listed with the mothers side > too. > I think that is why there is such a problem with the black ancestors who > had Indian fathers. They were listed with their mother who was black and > can't claim their Indian rights. Does anyone know the law about this. If I > stand corrected please feel free to correct me. > I think this is wrong to not let them have their Indian Heritage but so > many things were wrong back then. > Linda Kirby Branum > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 4:04 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > Hate to "nit pick", but here is MY problem with the suggestion: > > My great great grand mother MAY have been Chickasaw Indian from Gibson > > County, TN. She was born 1837. > > My great grand mother was almost without doubt Chocataw Indian from > Chambers > > County, AL. She was born 1856. > > My grand mother was suppose to have been part Cherokee Indian from Hayti, > > MO. She was born 1907. > > > > If any of these women are on any of the "Final Rolls" or any of their kin, > I > > have not been able to locate them!! Which "tribe" should I claim? > > BTW > > These are all my FATHER'S grand mothers. > > Jim > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Linda Branum" <mamalin@1s.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > Hi Dusty and all, > > > I want to say that my brother looks full blood Indian but we are just > > > 1/32. I don't look a bit like and Indian but I have the same amt of > blood > > as > > > he does. > > > I feel the amt of Indian doesn't matter. We are all brothers and > sisters > > > just some of us have proof and others don't. > > > I think we should all remember TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL. All > of > > > us need to unite together and stop worring about how much blood we have > > but > > > our people were all at one time full blood so who cares if you are full > or > > > just a little. You are still my sister and brother and all are NA. > > > Regards, Linda Kirby Branum > > > > > > (Guynes and Sain are my Indian heritage surnames) Guynes being Choctaw > > and > > > documented and Sain Cherokee undocumented. But I feel ancestors calling > > from > > > both!! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:29 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma and all: > > > > > > > > I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community > > still > > > > exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many > > > > different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from > other > > > > listmembers. > > > > > > > > What is the state of the Indian community today..... > > > > Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? > > > > Lifestyle? Beliefs? > > > > > > > > There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as > > to > > > > "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are > > "bloods". > > > > Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian > enough". > > > > Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? > > Don't > > > > quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of > that. > > > > > > > > I want the opinions of others on this list. > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > > > > Tommie > > > > > > > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > > > > trying to > > > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit > > in. > > > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's > defintions > > of > > > > good > > > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to > look > > to > > > > their > > > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. > > It > > > is > > > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological > characteristics. > > > It > > > > is > > > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad > thing > > is > > > > that > > > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > > > > Indians and > > > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is > > finding > > > > the few > > > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it > > causes > > > us > > > > to > > > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they > here > > > to > > > > get? > > > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about > > this > > > > reverse > > > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our > > own > > > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live > > with. > > > > This > > > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. > > If > > > we > > > > can > > > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great > thing. > > > > After > > > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world > > > shaped > > > > by > > > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > > > balance. It > > > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something > we > > > went > > > > to > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born > in > > > us > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a > > > white > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > things, > > > but > > > > they > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts > to > > > put > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at > > > best > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > B. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > everyone's > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just > think > > > > our > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've > had > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as > long > > > as > > > > it's > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > because > > it > > > > works > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > derogatory > > > > name. > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > > > Isn't > > > > that > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian > > > blood > > > > at > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > the > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > > > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > >

Elk Thank you!! That philosphy will certainly change my outlook on a lot of things!! Jim jmorsn@coastalnet.com http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > Halito and good morning Jim > How true it is, we are only Human. I am reminded of when I was first > trying to learn how to do bead work. It was after a Sweat/new moon ceremony. > I would do a few row's of beads and see that I had one color out of place. I > would take it all back apart and start over. Charley Tom the Yurok Medicine > man who had poured water for the Sweat had been watching me for a couple of > hours walked over and asked me what is was doing. I tried to explain to him > the pattern that I was trying to make and he said, I can see the pattern > that you doing but that wasn't my question. He said I asked what are you > doing you keep taking it apart and starting over. Are you just praticing how > to do it? I said no, I want to get the color's perfect in the pattern. Then > he said there was only one perfect person in the history of the whole world > and they nailed him to a tree, was I trying to get the same reward. > From that day forward in all of my beadwork and Leatherwork I would make > a flaw in it when I first started the piece and the rest of the pattern > would just fall into place. > We are only Human > Walk in Beauty > Elkdreamer > > > >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > >Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:09:51 -0400 > > > >Thank you!! > >I told everybody at the beginning of this discussion I WAS NOT A BIBLE > >TOOTER. > >I am a MAN and I do make mistakes!! > >Jim > > > >jmorsn@coastalnet.com > >http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Thurman & Elizabeth Harrison" <harriso5@ix.netcom.com> > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:38 PM > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > It was Abraham. He was ordered by God to sacrifice his son. In the end > >he > > > did not have to follow through? > > > thurman > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 5:05 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > I was going to ask that same question. I don't remember Job making > > > > sacrifice. He complained a lot (lol), but his family members died > >from > > > > other causes, not from sacrifice. > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Colin Kelley <CKELLEY@swpa.gov> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:39 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Job sacrifice a son? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Patsy Caleb [mailto:studentarchaeologist@home.com] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:11 PM > > > > > To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The original "Thou Shalt not kill" reads "Thou shalt not kill > >without > >a > > > > > reason" from the Lost Books of the Bible and forgotten Books of > >Eden" > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Jim Morrison, Jr. <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:16 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What "animal" gives its life freely to death? > > > > > > The ONLY one that could is MAN (human). And even MAN does not do > >so > > > > > > hesitation. Could you honestly take a child of YOUR'S and kill the > > > child > > > > > as > > > > > > an offering? For whatever the "rewards" that were promised. Could > >you? > > > > > > When did Job sacarafice is son? Before or after the 10 > >Commandments > > > were > > > > > > writen? Why? Isn't one of the Commandments "Thous Shall Not Kill"? > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:12 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > good question > > > > > > > I think that the statement, offering of his life could be > > > > considered > > > > > to > > > > > > > be like Job in the Bible he really didn't do it willing but when > >he > > > > did > > > > > > God > > > > > > > blessed him. Kind of like the warrior does giving thanks to the > > > > animal's > > > > > > > spirit so he could feed his family. > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:27:28 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I have one question here just for clarification. It doesn't > >mean > > > I'm > > > > > > > >challenging your statement, it just means I have a question, > >OK? > > > If > > > > > the > > > > > > > >animal is giving an offering of it's life, why does it run > >away? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >dusty > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > >From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:19 AM > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Jim > > > > > > > > > #1 question > > > > > > > > > Another word for the supreme being > > > > > > > > > #2 the offering of its life > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:23:34 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Two quick questions: > > > > > > > > > >1) Who is "Grand Father"? > > > > > > > > > >2) The ANIMAL is giving an offering when IT is killed? > > > > > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > > > > > >http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > >From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 10:36 PM > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Dennis > > > > > > > > > > > I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. My intrest is > >in > > > all > > > > > > > >things > > > > > > > > > > > Choctaw. and Spirituality is one of the aspects of it. > >To > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > > >Indian > > > > > > > > > > > people you have to dig deep into their thought pattern. > >When > > > > > they > > > > > > > >killed > > > > > > > > > > > animals for food and clothing they said a prayer To > > > > Grandfather > > > > > > for > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > offering that the animal gave and gave respect to the > >animal > > > > > also. > > > > > > > >When > > > > > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > > > > did beadwork they put part of their spirit in it also. > >when > > > a > > > > > > object > > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > > > > discarded it was done with respect. Spirtuality was > > > considered > > > > > in > > > > > > > >all > > > > > > > > > >things > > > > > > > > > > > done. That is one of the reasons that the Europeans that > > > came > > > > > here > > > > > > > > > > > misunderstood our people and their ways. > > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Dennis Boswell <dennisb@primenet.com> > > > > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:56:57 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Message for Elkdreamer and Dusty: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regarding who subscribes to CHAHTA-L and why, permit me > >to > > > > > > suggest > > > > > > > >that > > > > > > > > > > > >this list very likely has Choctaw and non-Choctaw > > > > subscribers. > > > > > > > >Among > > > > > > > > > >both > > > > > > > > > > > >groups, there are those who have an exclusive interest > >in > > > > > > religion > > > > > > > >all > > > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > >way to those who have an exclusive interest in some > >other > > > > > aspect > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > >Choctaw > > > > > > > > > > > >life but no interest at all in religion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In my case, I find Choctaw religious beliefs and the > >recent > > > > > > > >discussion > > > > > > > > > > > >surrounding them educational and thought provoking. > > > However, > > > > my > > > > > > > > > >personal > > > > > > > > > > > >interest does not directly concern Choctaw religion. It > >is > > > > very > > > > > > > >narrow > > > > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > > >concerns central Mississippi, pre-removal Choctaw > >social > > > and > > > > > > family > > > > > > > > > > > >customs, very narrowly defined examples of the Choctaw > > > > language > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > >about > > > > > > > > > > > >1800, relationships with early white settlers, trails > >and > > > > paths > > > > > > > > > >followed > > > > > > > > > >by > > > > > > > > > > > >these Choctaw in relationship to today's central > > > Mississippi > > > > > > county > > > > > > > > > > > >boundaries and the impact of removal on these same > >Choctaw > > > > with > > > > > > > > > >specific > > > > > > > > > > > >emphasis on the Durant Choctaw clan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If I unsubscribe, which I will do one day (to return at > >a > > > > later > > > > > > > >date), > > > > > > > > > >it > > > > > > > > > > > >will have nothing to do with whether I do or do not > >"learn > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > >religious > > > > > > > > > > > >views," "heat in the kitchen" or "sensitive subjects." > >It > > > > will > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > >everything to do with the fact that I subscribe to > >about > > > > > > > >thirty-five > > > > > > > > > >lists, > > > > > > > > > > > >receive mountains of email and have priorities on my > >time > > > and > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > >interests > > > > > > > > > > > >that are quite different than anyone else on this list > >- > >a > > > > > > comment > > > > > > > >that > > > > > > > > > > > >about everyone of you can make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Recognize that one of the wonderful aspects of CHAHTA-L > >(in > > > > > > > >comparison > > > > > > > > > >with > > > > > > > > > > > >virtually all na hollo lists) is the diversity of > >thought, > > > > > > > >background, > > > > > > > > > > > >education and perspective it offers. Were I to make one > > > > > > suggestion > > > > > > > >to > > > > > > > > > >those > > > > > > > > > > > >of you who clearly dominate this list, please guard > >against > > > > > > > >becoming > > > > > > > > > >too > > > > > > > > > > > >clannish lest the very diversity that enriches this > >site > > > > might > > > > > in > > > > > > > >time > > > > > > > > > > > >vanish leaving something less in its wake than you > >enjoy > > > > today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 08:50 AM 03/31/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>Halito Dusty and All list members > > > > > > > > > > > >> I believe that we all have the right to believe in > >the > > > way > > > > > > that > > > > > > > >we > > > > > > > > > >want > > > > > > > > > > > >>to. And in this aspect the right to discuss our and > >each > > > > > others > > > > > > > >views > > > > > > > > > >in > > > > > > > > > > > >>a intellegent and Adult way. Aparentlly the ones that > >left > > > > > will > > > > > > in > > > > > > > >no > > > > > > > > > >way > > > > > > > > > > > >>ever learn that there are other views than their own. > >Like > > > I > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > >always > > > > > > > > > > > >>been told if you can't stand the heat get out of the > > > > kitchen. > > > > > I > > > > > > > >guess > > > > > > > > > > > >>that is what they did. Lets keep up the heat I'm > >having > > > fun. > > > > > > > > > > > >> Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > > >> Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > >>>To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Subject: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:38:58 -0600 > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>We lost another 5 listmembers this morning. Don't > >know > > > for > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > >reason. > > > > > > > > > > > >>>While I suspect sensitive subject matter may be the > > > reason, > > > > > > this > > > > > > > >is > > > > > > > > > >only > > > > > > > > > > > >>>a > > > > > > > > > > > >>>supposition on my part. I have absolutely no > >objection > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > >topic > > > > > > > > > > > >>>continuing if that's what you guys want. Among other > > > > > > > >peculiarities > > > > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > > >>>character faults, I happen to wholeheartedly support > >the > > > > > First > > > > > > > > > >Amendment > > > > > > > > > > > >>>on > > > > > > > > > > > >>>this particular topic. What do you guys think?? > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't > > > post > > > > it > > > > > > to > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > > > > > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > > quotes > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > >quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > >quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > >Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at > >http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > >

In a message dated 4/8/01 9:49:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, CHAHTA-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: > "Have you heard about the new white > wine?.......................................... > > > > (nasally) "Why can't WE have casino's too????) > > Best told over dinner in a restaurant when folks are ordering wine. > > dusty > > Yucka-yucka-yucka!!! Mary

Does anyone do smudging ceremonies? Are these Chahta at all? I'm learning to do them, and do feel good about it, but wondered if this was something done long ago. I'd really like to learn more about this. Any idea? Shelley

I like to start with the people who were there in the beginning. I like the book "Social and Ceremonial Customs of the Choctaw", I believe by Swanton. However, ceremonies and customs evolve, changing with time and situations. Talk to all the Choctaw elders you can find. It may be a good idea to let them get to know you before asking too many questions, but some are quite open to questions. Attend all the Choctaw events you can find, and read all you can find. Spirituality is a very personal and individual matter, and not everyone practices their faith and traditions alike because not everyone believes the same thing. You'll have to find what's best for you and your heart will tell you. Do what you are comfortable with and DON't do what makes you uncomfortable. If someone suggests you try new things, find out about that person and their sincerity, reputation, etc first. Ask other people what they think of that individual. Be very careful in your choice of mentors. Don't take the chance of opening yourself up to forces that you cannot control just to do the "in" thing at the moment. If it doesn't "feel" right....DON'T DO IT. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Kris Harapan <harapank@wwdb.org> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > I guess what I need is something to help me get more specific. I can do > legal and historical research and track down facts. What I have a hard time > with is finding a reputable source of information on Choctaw spiritual > traditions. Perhaps my first question should be what have others found to > be most helpful to them? > > Kris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 7:27 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > Halito Kris > > How are you going to know if you know enough if you don't ask question's > > now. The only stupid question is the one not asked. Jump in and get your > > feet wet<G> > > Walk in Beauty > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > >From: "Kris Harapan" <harapank@wwdb.org> > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > >Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:01:56 -0700 > > > > > >Dusty, > > > > > >Not new to the list, but too new to studying my Choctaw heritage to know > > >where to begin asking questions. I have known since before I was in high > > >school that I was of NA descent. I tried to read about it then, but I > got > > >upset reading about the history of removals and broken treaties. We > lived > > >overseas and all I could get was extremely sanitized versions of history, > > >but it still made me mad. My mother took any such books away from me and > > >would not let me read about NA history again. She made quite an > > >impression. > > >I haven't lived under her roof for over 10 years, but it has taken me > this > > >long to find my way back where I first started my search. > > > > > >I may not have joined in the discussion, but I have learned from it. It > > >has > > >helped me to give my personal search some badly needed focus. > > > > > >Keep the discussion going. When I know enough to ask the right > questions, > > >I'll jump in. > > > > > >Thanks. > > > > > >Kris > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > >Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:58 PM > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Kris: > > > > > > > > Are you new to this list? That's what we've been doing the last week > or > > >so. > > > > And in doing so, our list shrank from about 100 down to 68 as of this > > > > morning. In the past 10 days I've received mail that ranged from mild > > > > chiding to words that a sailor that had been to sea for seven years > > >wouldn't > > > > think of. Stick around, the subject will come back up again! <LOL> > > > > > > > > If you have questons, please ask. Someone here may be able to answer. > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Kris Harapan <harapank@wwdb.org> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 10:22 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tsana, > > > > > > > > > > I second this. Having recently begun a spiritual quest of my own, I > > >have > > > > > been looking for a forum (online and off) that would support me in > > >asking > > > > > questions, without trying to force me onto a given path. I have > just > > >left > > > > > that route behind, and would very much like to find the path that is > > >right > > > > > for me. What seems to be the hardest right now is finding a > reputable > > > > > source for guidance into exploring new areas, and having a place > where > > >it > > > > is > > > > > okay to have questions. Am open to any suggestions others might > have. > > > > > > > > > > I know the recent discussions have been a bit hard on some, but I > have > > > > found > > > > > it to be quite helpful. I know concern has been expressed about > using > > > > this > > > > > forum for spiritual discussions, what would be the possibility of > > >having > > >a > > > > > list for discussion of traditional Choctaw beliefs, the impact of > > >outside > > > > > religions on those beliefs, and how this impacts their descendents > > >today? > > > > > Would their be enough interest to support something like that? > > > > > > > > > > Kris > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Tsa na Jordan <medicgirl78@yahoo.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:52 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara, > > > > > > I, like, Patsy, beg to differ. The only difference, it seems, > > > > between > > > > > > you and I is that you had a chance to grow up with and learn the > > >Choctaw > > > > > > > > > > culture from your family, elders, etc. I, on the other hand, did > > >not > > > > have > > > > > > that luxury. Now, it's no fault of mine, nor of my family. They > > >did > > > > what > > > > > > they thought best for the family at the time. OK, so does that > mean > > > > that > > > > > I > > > > > > am not as interested? NO. Does that mean that I can't learn a > lot > > > > about > > > > > it > > > > > > from the internet, books, elders, other tribal members, etc.? NO. > > >Does > > > > > it > > > > > > mean that I can become as knowledgable as you who grew up with it? > > >YES. > > > > > I > > > > > > will probably never know all that you do, nor will that bother me. > > >I > > > > want > > > > > > to learn my family's history and culture. Does it mean that I may > > >adopt > > > > > > some of the beliefs I learn about? PROBABLY since I've already > > >adopted > > > > > some > > > > > > of the Cherokee beliefs. Does it mean that you are a better > > >"Indian" > > > > than > > > > > > I? NOPE. Does it mean that you are a better person, in general, > > >than > > > > I? > > > > > > NOPE. > > > > > > I would appreciate your sharing some of the ways of the > Choctaw > > > > since > > > > > > you are so educated in those ways. Now, I'm fully aware that > there > > >are > > > > > some > > > > > > things that simply aren't meant to be on the internet, and I > respect > > > > that. > > > > > > So, sister, I lay down my bundle of tobacco beside you and ask in > a > > >good > > > > > > way - will you help me learn? I ask this with all respect. But, > > >with > > > > the > > > > > > same respect I'm also saying that I don't want to debate or argue. > > >If > > > > > > you're willing to sharing information, I'm your sponge, here to > soak > > >it > > > > > all > > > > > > up! > > > > > > Thanks, Barbara! > > > > > > Tsana > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:12 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can i disagree to that because the more i learn about my choctaw > > > > > heritage > > > > > > > the more spiritual i become > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:49 AM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not > something > > >we > > > > > went > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > > >born > > >in > > > > > us > > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded > by > > >a > > > > > white > > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > > >things, > > > > > but > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their > attempts > > >to > > > > > put > > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, > is > > >at > > > > > best > > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > > everyone's > > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just > > >think > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. > I've > > >had > > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, > as > > >long > > > > > as > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > > >because > > > > it > > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > > derogatory > > > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to > do > > >so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so > exclusive? > > > > > Isn't > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > > >Indian > > > > > blood > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" > without > > >the > > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > >quotes > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the > > >quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > >Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

You could be right. We're all here to learn. Whenever I hear something I'm not familiar with, I like to track it down. If you can remember where it was documented, let me know and I'll look. It could be true, it's just that I never heard that before> dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda Branum <mamalin@1s.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > Dusty, > I am on the Gowen forum and they had a heated discussion about this. Maybe > I spoke out of turn but that was my understanding. Thats why i said if I'm > wrong to please correct me. > I don't want to pass on something that isn't true. I didn't mean anything > by it except that I thought it wasn't right that that was happening. > Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner. I have been watching movies all > day until now. > Regards,Linda > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 6:30 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > > > > Linda: > > > > Where did you get the information about the blacks not being allowed to > > claim Indian blood if it was from their fathers? > > > > dusty > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Linda Branum <mamalin@1s.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:20 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > > > > > > > Hi Jim, > > > I do know that in some of the papers I have on my family members. We > are > > > Choctaw but my Great Uncle William Guynes married a Chickasaw woman and > > > their children are listed in the Chickasaw rolls. > > > If I am wrong please someone correct me. William is listed as 1/2 > > Choctaw > > > and Margaret James Guynes is listed as 3/4 Chickasaw. Its my > understanding > > > that the greater Indian blood line would be who the children are listed > > > with. I have also heard that the children were listed with the mothers > > side > > > too. > > > I think that is why there is such a problem with the black ancestors > who > > > had Indian fathers. They were listed with their mother who was black and > > > can't claim their Indian rights. Does anyone know the law about this. If > I > > > stand corrected please feel free to correct me. > > > I think this is wrong to not let them have their Indian Heritage but > so > > > many things were wrong back then. > > > Linda Kirby Branum > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 4:04 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > > > > Hate to "nit pick", but here is MY problem with the suggestion: > > > > My great great grand mother MAY have been Chickasaw Indian from Gibson > > > > County, TN. She was born 1837. > > > > My great grand mother was almost without doubt Chocataw Indian from > > > Chambers > > > > County, AL. She was born 1856. > > > > My grand mother was suppose to have been part Cherokee Indian from > > Hayti, > > > > MO. She was born 1907. > > > > > > > > If any of these women are on any of the "Final Rolls" or any of their > > kin, > > > I > > > > have not been able to locate them!! Which "tribe" should I claim? > > > > BTW > > > > These are all my FATHER'S grand mothers. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Linda Branum" <mamalin@1s.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:11 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dusty and all, > > > > > I want to say that my brother looks full blood Indian but we are > > just > > > > > 1/32. I don't look a bit like and Indian but I have the same amt of > > > blood > > > > as > > > > > he does. > > > > > I feel the amt of Indian doesn't matter. We are all brothers and > > > sisters > > > > > just some of us have proof and others don't. > > > > > I think we should all remember TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL. > > All > > > of > > > > > us need to unite together and stop worring about how much blood we > > have > > > > but > > > > > our people were all at one time full blood so who cares if you are > > full > > > or > > > > > just a little. You are still my sister and brother and all are NA. > > > > > Regards, Linda Kirby Branum > > > > > > > > > > (Guynes and Sain are my Indian heritage surnames) Guynes being > > Choctaw > > > > and > > > > > documented and Sain Cherokee undocumented. But I feel ancestors > > calling > > > > from > > > > > both!! > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:29 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma and all: > > > > > > > > > > > > I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the > community > > > > still > > > > > > exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under > many > > > > > > different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from > > > other > > > > > > listmembers. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the state of the Indian community today..... > > > > > > Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? > > > > > > Lifestyle? Beliefs? > > > > > > > > > > > > There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among > NA > > as > > > > to > > > > > > "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are > > > > "bloods". > > > > > > Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian > > > enough". > > > > > > Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? > > > > Don't > > > > > > quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > > > I want the opinions of others on this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > > > > > > Tommie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through > > life > > > > > > trying to > > > > > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't > > fit > > > > in. > > > > > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's > > > defintions > > > > of > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to > > > look > > > > to > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel > > comfortable. > > > > It > > > > > is > > > > > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological > > > characteristics. > > > > > It > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad > > > thing > > > > is > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up > > around > > > > > > Indians and > > > > > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is > > > > finding > > > > > > the few > > > > > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it > > > > causes > > > > > us > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are > they > > > here > > > > > to > > > > > > get? > > > > > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing > about > > > > this > > > > > > reverse > > > > > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace > > our > > > > own > > > > > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to > live > > > > with. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new > > generations. > > > > If > > > > > we > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great > > > thing. > > > > > > After > > > > > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a > > world > > > > > shaped > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles > of > > > > > > balance. It > > > > > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not > something > > > we > > > > > went > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > > born > > > in > > > > > us > > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded > by > > a > > > > > white > > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > > > things, > > > > > but > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their > attempts > > > to > > > > > put > > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, > is > > at > > > > > best > > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > > everyone's > > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just > > > think > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. > I've > > > had > > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, > as > > > long > > > > > as > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > > > because > > > > it > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > > derogatory > > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to > do > > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so > exclusive? > > > > > Isn't > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > > Indian > > > > > blood > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" > without > > > the > > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > > > > > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > the > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to > > the > > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to > the > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

Now that would be an interesting one to watch. Do you recall the name? dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:50 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > I saw a program on the history channel that is almost opposite to that. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:16 PM > Subject: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > > > > The Five Civilized Tribes (Choctaw-Cherokee-Creek-Seminole-Chickasaw) were > > called "civilized" by the government because they were not nomadic, lived > in > > permanent communities, were amenable to European ideas and culture and had > a > > representative, centralized form of government. They were removed to > Indian > > Territory because they held the most desirable lands throughout the > > southeast, and without removing them beyond the Mississippi River, those > > lands could not be opened to encroaching white settlement. > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

Dusty, I am on the Gowen forum and they had a heated discussion about this. Maybe I spoke out of turn but that was my understanding. Thats why i said if I'm wrong to please correct me. I don't want to pass on something that isn't true. I didn't mean anything by it except that I thought it wasn't right that that was happening. Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner. I have been watching movies all day until now. Regards,Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > Linda: > > Where did you get the information about the blacks not being allowed to > claim Indian blood if it was from their fathers? > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Linda Branum <mamalin@1s.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > > > > Hi Jim, > > I do know that in some of the papers I have on my family members. We are > > Choctaw but my Great Uncle William Guynes married a Chickasaw woman and > > their children are listed in the Chickasaw rolls. > > If I am wrong please someone correct me. William is listed as 1/2 > Choctaw > > and Margaret James Guynes is listed as 3/4 Chickasaw. Its my understanding > > that the greater Indian blood line would be who the children are listed > > with. I have also heard that the children were listed with the mothers > side > > too. > > I think that is why there is such a problem with the black ancestors who > > had Indian fathers. They were listed with their mother who was black and > > can't claim their Indian rights. Does anyone know the law about this. If I > > stand corrected please feel free to correct me. > > I think this is wrong to not let them have their Indian Heritage but so > > many things were wrong back then. > > Linda Kirby Branum > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 4:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > Hate to "nit pick", but here is MY problem with the suggestion: > > > My great great grand mother MAY have been Chickasaw Indian from Gibson > > > County, TN. She was born 1837. > > > My great grand mother was almost without doubt Chocataw Indian from > > Chambers > > > County, AL. She was born 1856. > > > My grand mother was suppose to have been part Cherokee Indian from > Hayti, > > > MO. She was born 1907. > > > > > > If any of these women are on any of the "Final Rolls" or any of their > kin, > > I > > > have not been able to locate them!! Which "tribe" should I claim? > > > BTW > > > These are all my FATHER'S grand mothers. > > > Jim > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Linda Branum" <mamalin@1s.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dusty and all, > > > > I want to say that my brother looks full blood Indian but we are > just > > > > 1/32. I don't look a bit like and Indian but I have the same amt of > > blood > > > as > > > > he does. > > > > I feel the amt of Indian doesn't matter. We are all brothers and > > sisters > > > > just some of us have proof and others don't. > > > > I think we should all remember TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL. > All > > of > > > > us need to unite together and stop worring about how much blood we > have > > > but > > > > our people were all at one time full blood so who cares if you are > full > > or > > > > just a little. You are still my sister and brother and all are NA. > > > > Regards, Linda Kirby Branum > > > > > > > > (Guynes and Sain are my Indian heritage surnames) Guynes being > Choctaw > > > and > > > > documented and Sain Cherokee undocumented. But I feel ancestors > calling > > > from > > > > both!! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:29 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma and all: > > > > > > > > > > I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community > > > still > > > > > exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many > > > > > different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from > > other > > > > > listmembers. > > > > > > > > > > What is the state of the Indian community today..... > > > > > Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? > > > > > Lifestyle? Beliefs? > > > > > > > > > > There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA > as > > > to > > > > > "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are > > > "bloods". > > > > > Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian > > enough". > > > > > Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? > > > Don't > > > > > quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of > > that. > > > > > > > > > > I want the opinions of others on this list. > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > > > > > Tommie > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through > life > > > > > trying to > > > > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't > fit > > > in. > > > > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's > > defintions > > > of > > > > > good > > > > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to > > look > > > to > > > > > their > > > > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel > comfortable. > > > It > > > > is > > > > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological > > characteristics. > > > > It > > > > > is > > > > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad > > thing > > > is > > > > > that > > > > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up > around > > > > > Indians and > > > > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is > > > finding > > > > > the few > > > > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it > > > causes > > > > us > > > > > to > > > > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they > > here > > > > to > > > > > get? > > > > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about > > > this > > > > > reverse > > > > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace > our > > > own > > > > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live > > > with. > > > > > This > > > > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new > generations. > > > If > > > > we > > > > > can > > > > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great > > thing. > > > > > After > > > > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a > world > > > > shaped > > > > > by > > > > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > > > > balance. It > > > > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something > > we > > > > went > > > > > to > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > born > > in > > > > us > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by > a > > > > white > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > > things, > > > > but > > > > > they > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts > > to > > > > put > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is > at > > > > best > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > everyone's > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just > > think > > > > > our > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've > > had > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as > > long > > > > as > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > > because > > > it > > > > > works > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > derogatory > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > > > > Isn't > > > > > that > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > Indian > > > > blood > > > > > at > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > > the > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > > > > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > > quotes > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to > the > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

The Five Civilized Tribes (Choctaw-Cherokee-Creek-Seminole-Chickasaw) were called "civilized" by the government because they were not nomadic, lived in permanent communities, were amenable to European ideas and culture and had a representative, centralized form of government. They were removed to Indian Territory because they held the most desirable lands throughout the southeast, and without removing them beyond the Mississippi River, those lands could not be opened to encroaching white settlement. dusty

I grew up in Indonesia. Under their laws at that time, anyone of Chinese descent could not become a citizen. If the father was Chinese, women would check into hospitals under their maiden name, and put it on the child's birth certificate so that the child could be eligible for citizenship. Is it possible that since freedmen had fewer rights, the children were listed with the parent who could claim the most rights? I have a copy of a US Supreme Court case (US v. Choctaw Nation, 193 U.S. 115 (1904)) decided 02/23/1904 that determined the freedman could not receive land allotments with either the Choctaw or Chicksaw Nations. This decision upheld an 1866 treaty regarding the status of the freedman. If there were those of mixed NA descent who were trying to deny their heritage and pass as white when it was to their advantage, perhaps those descended from freedman were trying to do the same thing by claiming only part of their heritage during the enrollments. It's a guess on my part. What do others think? Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 10:20 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > You could be right. We're all here to learn. Whenever I hear something I'm > not familiar with, I like to track it down. If you can remember where it > was documented, let me know and I'll look. It could be true, it's just that > I never heard that before> > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Linda Branum <mamalin@1s.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 12:04 AM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > > > > Dusty, > > I am on the Gowen forum and they had a heated discussion about this. > Maybe > > I spoke out of turn but that was my understanding. Thats why i said if I'm > > wrong to please correct me. > > I don't want to pass on something that isn't true. I didn't mean > anything > > by it except that I thought it wasn't right that that was happening. > > Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner. I have been watching movies all > > day until now. > > Regards,Linda > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 6:30 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > > > > > > > Linda: > > > > > > Where did you get the information about the blacks not being allowed to > > > claim Indian blood if it was from their fathers? > > > > > > dusty > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Linda Branum <mamalin@1s.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:20 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Indian Heritage > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > I do know that in some of the papers I have on my family members. We > > are > > > > Choctaw but my Great Uncle William Guynes married a Chickasaw woman > and > > > > their children are listed in the Chickasaw rolls. > > > > If I am wrong please someone correct me. William is listed as 1/2 > > > Choctaw > > > > and Margaret James Guynes is listed as 3/4 Chickasaw. Its my > > understanding > > > > that the greater Indian blood line would be who the children are > listed > > > > with. I have also heard that the children were listed with the mothers > > > side > > > > too. > > > > I think that is why there is such a problem with the black ancestors > > who > > > > had Indian fathers. They were listed with their mother who was black > and > > > > can't claim their Indian rights. Does anyone know the law about this. > If > > I > > > > stand corrected please feel free to correct me. > > > > I think this is wrong to not let them have their Indian Heritage but > > so > > > > many things were wrong back then. > > > > Linda Kirby Branum > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 4:04 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hate to "nit pick", but here is MY problem with the suggestion: > > > > > My great great grand mother MAY have been Chickasaw Indian from > Gibson > > > > > County, TN. She was born 1837. > > > > > My great grand mother was almost without doubt Chocataw Indian from > > > > Chambers > > > > > County, AL. She was born 1856. > > > > > My grand mother was suppose to have been part Cherokee Indian from > > > Hayti, > > > > > MO. She was born 1907. > > > > > > > > > > If any of these women are on any of the "Final Rolls" or any of > their > > > kin, > > > > I > > > > > have not been able to locate them!! Which "tribe" should I claim? > > > > > BTW > > > > > These are all my FATHER'S grand mothers. > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Linda Branum" <mamalin@1s.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:11 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dusty and all, > > > > > > I want to say that my brother looks full blood Indian but we are > > > just > > > > > > 1/32. I don't look a bit like and Indian but I have the same amt > of > > > > blood > > > > > as > > > > > > he does. > > > > > > I feel the amt of Indian doesn't matter. We are all brothers and > > > > sisters > > > > > > just some of us have proof and others don't. > > > > > > I think we should all remember TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE > FALL. > > > All > > > > of > > > > > > us need to unite together and stop worring about how much blood we > > > have > > > > > but > > > > > > our people were all at one time full blood so who cares if you are > > > full > > > > or > > > > > > just a little. You are still my sister and brother and all are NA. > > > > > > Regards, Linda Kirby Branum > > > > > > > > > > > > (Guynes and Sain are my Indian heritage surnames) Guynes being > > > Choctaw > > > > > and > > > > > > documented and Sain Cherokee undocumented. But I feel ancestors > > > calling > > > > > from > > > > > > both!! > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:29 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma and all: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the > > community > > > > > still > > > > > > > exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under > > many > > > > > > > different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback > from > > > > other > > > > > > > listmembers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the state of the Indian community today..... > > > > > > > Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood > quantum? > > > > > > > Lifestyle? Beliefs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among > > NA > > > as > > > > > to > > > > > > > "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are > > > > > "bloods". > > > > > > > Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian > > > > enough". > > > > > > > Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other > races.? > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware > of > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want the opinions of others on this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > > > > > > > Tommie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander > through > > > life > > > > > > > trying to > > > > > > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they > don't > > > fit > > > > > in. > > > > > > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's > > > > defintions > > > > > of > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides > to > > > > look > > > > > to > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel > > > comfortable. > > > > > It > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological > > > > characteristics. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The > sad > > > > thing > > > > > is > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up > > > around > > > > > > > Indians and > > > > > > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing > is > > > > > finding > > > > > > > the few > > > > > > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share > > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community > it > > > > > causes > > > > > > us > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are > > they > > > > here > > > > > > to > > > > > > > get? > > > > > > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing > > about > > > > > this > > > > > > > reverse > > > > > > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to > re-embrace > > > our > > > > > own > > > > > > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to > > live > > > > > with. > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new > > > generations. > > > > > If > > > > > > we > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a > great > > > > thing. > > > > > > > After > > > > > > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a > > > world > > > > > > shaped > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with > principles > > of > > > > > > > balance. It > > > > > > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not > > something > > > > we > > > > > > went > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > > > born > > > > in > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised > surrounded > > by > > > a > > > > > > white > > > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > > > > things, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their > > attempts > > > > to > > > > > > put > > > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, > > is > > > at > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > > > everyone's > > > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but > just > > > > think > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. > > I've > > > > had > > > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, > > as > > > > long > > > > > > as > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > > > > because > > > > > it > > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > > > derogatory > > > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant > to > > do > > > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so > > exclusive? > > > > > > Isn't > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > > > Indian > > > > > > blood > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail > list: > > > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" > > without > > > > the > > > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off > signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > > > > > > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > > the > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it > to > > > the > > > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to > > the > > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > >

If the White man had not wanted the Indian Land east of the Mississippi, we would all be calling Mississippi, Tennessee, Georgia, etc, HOME. Lola Patsy Caleb wrote: > I saw a program on the history channel that is almost opposite to that. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:16 PM > Subject: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > > > The Five Civilized Tribes (Choctaw-Cherokee-Creek-Seminole-Chickasaw) were > > called "civilized" by the government because they were not nomadic, lived > in > > permanent communities, were amenable to European ideas and culture and had > a > > representative, centralized form of government. They were removed to > Indian > > Territory because they held the most desirable lands throughout the > > southeast, and without removing them beyond the Mississippi River, those > > lands could not be opened to encroaching white settlement. > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/

I guess what I need is something to help me get more specific. I can do legal and historical research and track down facts. What I have a hard time with is finding a reputable source of information on Choctaw spiritual traditions. Perhaps my first question should be what have others found to be most helpful to them? Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > Halito Kris > How are you going to know if you know enough if you don't ask question's > now. The only stupid question is the one not asked. Jump in and get your > feet wet<G> > Walk in Beauty > Elkdreamer > > > > >From: "Kris Harapan" <harapank@wwdb.org> > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > >Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:01:56 -0700 > > > >Dusty, > > > >Not new to the list, but too new to studying my Choctaw heritage to know > >where to begin asking questions. I have known since before I was in high > >school that I was of NA descent. I tried to read about it then, but I got > >upset reading about the history of removals and broken treaties. We lived > >overseas and all I could get was extremely sanitized versions of history, > >but it still made me mad. My mother took any such books away from me and > >would not let me read about NA history again. She made quite an > >impression. > >I haven't lived under her roof for over 10 years, but it has taken me this > >long to find my way back where I first started my search. > > > >I may not have joined in the discussion, but I have learned from it. It > >has > >helped me to give my personal search some badly needed focus. > > > >Keep the discussion going. When I know enough to ask the right questions, > >I'll jump in. > > > >Thanks. > > > >Kris > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:58 PM > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Kris: > > > > > > Are you new to this list? That's what we've been doing the last week or > >so. > > > And in doing so, our list shrank from about 100 down to 68 as of this > > > morning. In the past 10 days I've received mail that ranged from mild > > > chiding to words that a sailor that had been to sea for seven years > >wouldn't > > > think of. Stick around, the subject will come back up again! <LOL> > > > > > > If you have questons, please ask. Someone here may be able to answer. > > > > > > dusty > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Kris Harapan <harapank@wwdb.org> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 10:22 AM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Tsana, > > > > > > > > I second this. Having recently begun a spiritual quest of my own, I > >have > > > > been looking for a forum (online and off) that would support me in > >asking > > > > questions, without trying to force me onto a given path. I have just > >left > > > > that route behind, and would very much like to find the path that is > >right > > > > for me. What seems to be the hardest right now is finding a reputable > > > > source for guidance into exploring new areas, and having a place where > >it > > > is > > > > okay to have questions. Am open to any suggestions others might have. > > > > > > > > I know the recent discussions have been a bit hard on some, but I have > > > found > > > > it to be quite helpful. I know concern has been expressed about using > > > this > > > > forum for spiritual discussions, what would be the possibility of > >having > >a > > > > list for discussion of traditional Choctaw beliefs, the impact of > >outside > > > > religions on those beliefs, and how this impacts their descendents > >today? > > > > Would their be enough interest to support something like that? > > > > > > > > Kris > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Tsa na Jordan <medicgirl78@yahoo.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:52 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara, > > > > > I, like, Patsy, beg to differ. The only difference, it seems, > > > between > > > > > you and I is that you had a chance to grow up with and learn the > >Choctaw > > > > > > > > culture from your family, elders, etc. I, on the other hand, did > >not > > > have > > > > > that luxury. Now, it's no fault of mine, nor of my family. They > >did > > > what > > > > > they thought best for the family at the time. OK, so does that mean > > > that > > > > I > > > > > am not as interested? NO. Does that mean that I can't learn a lot > > > about > > > > it > > > > > from the internet, books, elders, other tribal members, etc.? NO. > >Does > > > > it > > > > > mean that I can become as knowledgable as you who grew up with it? > >YES. > > > > I > > > > > will probably never know all that you do, nor will that bother me. > >I > > > want > > > > > to learn my family's history and culture. Does it mean that I may > >adopt > > > > > some of the beliefs I learn about? PROBABLY since I've already > >adopted > > > > some > > > > > of the Cherokee beliefs. Does it mean that you are a better > >"Indian" > > > than > > > > > I? NOPE. Does it mean that you are a better person, in general, > >than > > > I? > > > > > NOPE. > > > > > I would appreciate your sharing some of the ways of the Choctaw > > > since > > > > > you are so educated in those ways. Now, I'm fully aware that there > >are > > > > some > > > > > things that simply aren't meant to be on the internet, and I respect > > > that. > > > > > So, sister, I lay down my bundle of tobacco beside you and ask in a > >good > > > > > way - will you help me learn? I ask this with all respect. But, > >with > > > the > > > > > same respect I'm also saying that I don't want to debate or argue. > >If > > > > > you're willing to sharing information, I'm your sponge, here to soak > >it > > > > all > > > > > up! > > > > > Thanks, Barbara! > > > > > Tsana > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:12 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can i disagree to that because the more i learn about my choctaw > > > > heritage > > > > > > the more spiritual i become > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:49 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something > >we > > > > went > > > > > > to > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is > >born > >in > > > > us > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by > >a > > > > white > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some > >things, > > > > but > > > > > > they > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts > >to > > > > put > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is > >at > > > > best > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to > > > everyone's > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just > >think > > > > > our > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've > >had > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as > >long > > > > as > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways > >because > > > it > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > derogatory > > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do > >so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > > > > Isn't > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > >Indian > > > > blood > > > > > at > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without > >the > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > >quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the > >quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > >Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > >

You know, Mary, you said "before it was cool". Well, I was the same way. I decided that I was going to decorate my house with "Indian" artwork, etc. Well, I was a little luckier than most because I have a cousin who owns an art gallery and was able to obtain prints and such for me, but they cost quite a bit and I was limited with money. Then I visited Tahlequah and obtained a few items. But, when I decided this, NO ONE ELSE (except a few Indians) were doing this. Then, a few years later, BAM! I could find anything I wanted! Now, I'm still decorating that way, but others have moved on to something else. I think continuity says something for us. I have for as long as I can remember "felt" Indian. As a child, I used to cry during movies where the Indians were made fun of or were taken advantage of. I don't think this makes me better than anyone else or lesser than anyone else. But, it does make me feel "special" because I feel as though I really belong and that feeling comes from my heart and soul. I, too, get angry when people say that if you don't have a card, or you can't prove your blood, but I have to remember what my heart and soul tells me and, that is that I AM. I AM Cherokee and I AM Choctaw! As has been said in previous messages, I think that my knowing from deep within that I AM Indian is what has gotten me through some really tough times and either kept me on the right road, or quickly brought me back to the right road. OK, I know, here I go again! Thanks for listening ya'll! And thanks brothers and sisters for being here! Tsana ----- Original Message ----- From: <Amarya@aol.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 12:28 PM Subject: [CHAHTA] Re: CHAHTA-D Digest V01 #195 > In a message dated 4/6/01 8:40:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > CHAHTA-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > > > This medium is second-best, to be sure, but it's all we have at present. > > Many of us have met face-to-face, and I hope those opportunities will > > continue to arise in the future. A good gathering place is at Choctaw-Fair > > coming up in Mississippi in July. I hope all who can, will attend. > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > Dusty, > In a sense, I may be a "lost bird" as I was born and raised in > California. However, I do belong to the OK Choctaws and was raised with the > knowledge that I was part of that nation. My mother was born in Caddo, OK > and I grew up with her telling me this fact often. I don't look indian and > don't have much blood quantum, but I have felt closer to the OK Choctaw than > the Scots or Irish or anything else. I have always been proud of my Indian > heritage, even before it was cool. Mary > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com