Dusty, Thank you for your thoughts on this. From what I have read in Cushman, Debo, Kidwell, etc. your "wattle and daub" sounds very much like the huts used by the early Choctaw further north in Mississippi. It is interesting to speculate on how far back the custom of building a hut on a raft might go even in southern LA and MS. It never ceases to amaze me how folks adapt to their environmental circumstances. Sounds like these days they are used as duck blinds in swampy areas. If you ever happen to see anything on the type of dwelling was used during periods of travel, say from central MS to the Mississippi swamps, please let me know. At 07:20 PM 04/09/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Dennis: >The type of dwelling used down here on the Gulf Coast was called "wattle and >daub", and was a combination of poles used to support the structure with >interwoven sticks, twigs or branches used for the walls. Native clay used >as mortar to hold the sticks together. Dwellings of this nature were still >in use on occasion at the turn of the century, later evolving into the "log >cabin" type structure seen more recently. > >In the extreme southern, swampy parts of La. and Miss., there is still in >use today a structure similar to a small log cabin which is built on a raft >made of cypress or pine logs lashed together. When the rains come in the >spring and the Mississippi river rises causing flooding throughout the >Atchafalaya Basin swamplands, these dwellings float up with the high water. >They are still referred to by the Cajun people as "Choctaws", and are >sometimes used as temporary hunting lodges. > >dusty >----- Original Message ----- >From: Dennis Boswell <dennisb@primenet.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 3:47 PM >Subject: [CHAHTA] Mississippi Choctaw Dwellings > > > > Halito, CHAHTA-L subscribers, > > > > This message concerns pre-removal Choctaw, not those living in IT >following > > removal. I make this distinction because my question (below) concerns only > > those Choctaw living in Mississippi prior to and during removal. > > > > I understand they lived in log cabins resembling a Hogan (similar to those > > used by Navajos with a hole in the roof to allow smoke to escape). An > > example of a Hogan may be seen at, > > > > http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/hogan.htm > > > > In established villages, I have no doubt their dwellings resembled the > > Hogan. However, there is a possibility that when they traveled to the > > flood plains of the Yazoo and Mississippi Delta on hunting trips (as was > > the custom in the fall after the harvest season), they may have used a >more > > transportable dwelling structure such as a tepee, a picture of which may >be > > seen at, > > > > http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/tepee.htm > > > > ... or a wigwam (similar to those used by ANs in the Great Lakes region).a > > picture of which may be seen at, > > > > http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/wigwam.htm > > > > I have seen nothing that claims they ever used tepee- or wigwam-like > > dwellings, even while traveling overland. In fact, it seems likely that > > during overland travel and after arriving at their remote destination, >they > > may not have used any form of dwelling - portable or otherwise unless it > > was built on the spot out of materials on hand at the location. One reason > > they may not have taken their dwellings with them is the fact that >Choctaws > > hunted west of the Mississippi before removal. Crossing the Mississippi > > while transporting any form of portable dwelling would make the crossing > > task that much more difficult. > > > > Does anyone on the list have an opinion or know of a reference concerning > > the use of dwellings, portable or otherwise, during extended periods of > > travel away from the village? > > > > NOTE: (to myself) Might Choctaw use of Hogan-like structures indicate an > > original west to east migration path that took Choctaw's ancestors through > > Navajo lands en-route to Mississippi? > > > > Yakoke, > > > > Dennis K. Boswell > > 301 Crow Canyon Drive > > Folsom, CA 95630 > > > > Tel: (916) 987-3599 > > Fax: (916) 987-3555 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Choctaw Home Page: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ Regards, Dennis K. Boswell 301 Crow Canyon Drive Folsom, CA 95630 Tel: (916) 987-3599 Fax: (916) 987-3555

I don't remember where I read it, but I do remember it saying about smudging a room, start in the center of the room and make circles widening each time until you reach the walls and make sure to smudge the corners. Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Smudging > One of the herbs used by the Southeastern Tribes was cedar.There is no > incorrect way to smudge. When we connect with Creator and set a Sacred > Intent we will be guided to do what we should. The Ancestors are there > waiting to help. > I have seen smudging done in many ways by many different tribes of people > using many different herbs and all were correct. It is about cleansing and > allowing that which is good to come and that which is not to go away. > Sage and Cedar are the big cleansers and Sweet Grass is very much what > it says. It calls in the sweetness or the " Good Guys " > I smudge my home from time to time depending on how it feels to me. Also > I smudge my car or anything else that I feel needs it. > For the house I go to each room and cleanse it and then walk around > outside the house to cleanse the area.It is a matter of letting the smoke > permiate the house inside and out. > By the way, if you have a smoke detector, better take it down while you > are smudging.haha! It can jar you a little. > Arla > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com >

One of the herbs used by the Southeastern Tribes was cedar.There is no incorrect way to smudge. When we connect with Creator and set a Sacred Intent we will be guided to do what we should. The Ancestors are there waiting to help. I have seen smudging done in many ways by many different tribes of people using many different herbs and all were correct. It is about cleansing and allowing that which is good to come and that which is not to go away. Sage and Cedar are the big cleansers and Sweet Grass is very much what it says. It calls in the sweetness or the " Good Guys " I smudge my home from time to time depending on how it feels to me. Also I smudge my car or anything else that I feel needs it. For the house I go to each room and cleanse it and then walk around outside the house to cleanse the area.It is a matter of letting the smoke permiate the house inside and out. By the way, if you have a smoke detector, better take it down while you are smudging.haha! It can jar you a little. Arla

I've also smudged sacred objects - my fan for instance. I've smudged my garments with sage and tobacco when they've been stored for a long time. Also the walls of my house when things aren't going right, gradually herding all the "bad stuff" out the door, then smudged the door frame with sage so it cannot re-enter. Also use tobacco ties on the windows. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Smudging > Halito Dusty > I also call the Spirits to my home. Then smudge with sage to ask the bad > one to leave. > Walk in Beauty > Elkdreamer > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Smudging > >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:28:24 -0500 > > > >It is my understanding that ceremonies involving "smudging" are done for > >purification/strenghtening purposes prior to other ceremonies. We > >smudge/smoke ourselves before entering the dance circle at pow wows or > >entering a medicine wheel or medicine circle to remove anything that > >shouldn't be attached when one steps into these sacred areas. > > > >dusty > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Choctaw <choctaw@bscn.com> > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 12:33 AM > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Smudging > > > > > > > Does anyone do smudging ceremonies? Are these Chahta at all? I'm > >learning > > > to do them, and do feel good about it, but wondered if this was > >something > > > done long ago. I'd really like to learn more about this. Any idea? > > > Shelley > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

Try the"American State Papers". Removal policy began with President Thomas Jefferson who said, "When we shall be full on this side, we may lay off a range of States on the western bank (of the Mississippi River) fro the head to the mouth, and so, range after range, advancing compactly as we (whites) multiply." (Source: Thomas Jefferson to John Breckenridge, August 12, 1803). In a letter he wrote to Andrew Jackson Feb. 16, 1803 he asserted that the primary reason for keeping Indian agents among the tribes was to obtain their land. He stated, ":Toward effecting this object we consider leading the Indians to agriculture....Where they shall cultivate small spots of earth and see how useless their extensive forests are, they will sell." Each Indian agent "shall be estimated by us in proportion to the benefits he can obtain for us." He ended his letter with the demand that his views "be pursued unremittingly." (Thomas Jefferson to Andrew Jackson, Feb.16, 1803 from "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Memorial Edition) Jefferson justified his position by claiming that vas lands were needed between the Appalachain Mts. and the Mississippi River "for defense", which he believed could only be possible with a large white population. He also used more odious methods of obtaining Indian lands, as enlarging the governments Indian "factories" in the various nations and encouraging the Indians to buy more and more goods on credit. When the Indians' debts became so burdensome that they could not possibly pay the total bill, the Indian agents were instructed to reveal that the United States government would magnanimously liquidate the debts by accepting land cessions. (Source:" A Complilation of the Mesages and Papers of the Presidents", Wash.D.C., 1807) There have been VOLUMES written on the US governments Indian policies under its various presidents. Your local library can point you in the right direction to conduct your personal research. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > yeaah but where is the writtings and records tath that record all of this > i think it was under andrew jackson ? no? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lola Crane <lcrane@futureone.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 10:47 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > > > > If the White man had not wanted the Indian Land east of the Mississippi, > we > > would all be calling Mississippi, Tennessee, Georgia, etc, HOME. > > Lola > > > > Patsy Caleb wrote: > > > > > I saw a program on the history channel that is almost opposite to that. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:16 PM > > > Subject: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > > > > > > > The Five Civilized Tribes (Choctaw-Cherokee-Creek-Seminole-Chickasaw) > were > > > > called "civilized" by the government because they were not nomadic, > lived > > > in > > > > permanent communities, were amenable to European ideas and culture and > had > > > a > > > > representative, centralized form of government. They were removed to > > > Indian > > > > Territory because they held the most desirable lands throughout the > > > > southeast, and without removing them beyond the Mississippi River, > those > > > > lands could not be opened to encroaching white settlement. > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

Halito, CHAHTA-L subscribers, This message concerns pre-removal Choctaw, not those living in IT following removal. I make this distinction because my question (below) concerns only those Choctaw living in Mississippi prior to and during removal. I understand they lived in log cabins resembling a Hogan (similar to those used by Navajos with a hole in the roof to allow smoke to escape). An example of a Hogan may be seen at, http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/hogan.htm In established villages, I have no doubt their dwellings resembled the Hogan. However, there is a possibility that when they traveled to the flood plains of the Yazoo and Mississippi Delta on hunting trips (as was the custom in the fall after the harvest season), they may have used a more transportable dwelling structure such as a tepee, a picture of which may be seen at, http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/tepee.htm ... or a wigwam (similar to those used by ANs in the Great Lakes region).a picture of which may be seen at, http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/wigwam.htm I have seen nothing that claims they ever used tepee- or wigwam-like dwellings, even while traveling overland. In fact, it seems likely that during overland travel and after arriving at their remote destination, they may not have used any form of dwelling - portable or otherwise unless it was built on the spot out of materials on hand at the location. One reason they may not have taken their dwellings with them is the fact that Choctaws hunted west of the Mississippi before removal. Crossing the Mississippi while transporting any form of portable dwelling would make the crossing task that much more difficult. Does anyone on the list have an opinion or know of a reference concerning the use of dwellings, portable or otherwise, during extended periods of travel away from the village? NOTE: (to myself) Might Choctaw use of Hogan-like structures indicate an original west to east migration path that took Choctaw's ancestors through Navajo lands en-route to Mississippi? Yakoke, Dennis K. Boswell 301 Crow Canyon Drive Folsom, CA 95630 Tel: (916) 987-3599 Fax: (916) 987-3555

Elk, I need to know how to smudge my home. I have a new home that we just moved into a couple of months ago. I was out of sage and just got more today. I've smudge blanket and myself outside over a fire, but I'm not sure how I should go about smudging the house and I want to do it the right way. Any help you can give me would be appreciated. Yakoke, Shelley

Halito, I would like more information on smudging as well. I am familiar with smudging before going into dance circle but am not about the medicine wheel or medicine circle. Little Deer

  I cannot STAND children who call elders by their first name or don't say Maam/Sir. dusty I find this rather hard to believe! I'm sure you meant that: you cannot stand it when the PARENTS have not taught their children proper manners. They can only know this if they are taught by their elders!!! While it is a true statement of fact: One of todays society's short comings is the lack of manners! But we can't blame the children if they are not taught!!! Does this sound better?

Jackson was the executioner, but guys like Jefferson started the process. -----Original Message----- From: Patsy Caleb [mailto:studentarchaeologist@home.com] Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:54 AM To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES yeaah but where is the writtings and records tath that record all of this i think it was under andrew jackson ? no? ----- Original Message ----- From: Lola Crane <lcrane@futureone.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > If the White man had not wanted the Indian Land east of the Mississippi, we > would all be calling Mississippi, Tennessee, Georgia, etc, HOME. > Lola > > Patsy Caleb wrote: > > > I saw a program on the history channel that is almost opposite to that. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:16 PM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > > > > > The Five Civilized Tribes (Choctaw-Cherokee-Creek-Seminole-Chickasaw) were > > > called "civilized" by the government because they were not nomadic, lived > > in > > > permanent communities, were amenable to European ideas and culture and had > > a > > > representative, centralized form of government. They were removed to > > Indian > > > Territory because they held the most desirable lands throughout the > > > southeast, and without removing them beyond the Mississippi River, those > > > lands could not be opened to encroaching white settlement. > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== Choctaw Home Page: http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/

Knowing Dusty the way I do, just insert the word "it" right after the word "STAND" and that will help you understand. Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: <WolfsHeart@aol.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > I cannot STAND children who call elders by their first name or don't > say Maam/Sir. dusty > > I find this rather hard to believe! I'm sure you meant that: you cannot > stand it when the PARENTS have not taught their children proper manners. They > can only know this if they are taught by their elders!!! While it is a true > statement of fact: One of todays society's short comings is the lack of > manners! But we can't blame the children if they are not taught!!! Does this > sound better? > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

Seems to me the Elders speak to us in many ways.... Arla ----- Original Message ----- > "Everything really is equal. The Creator doesn't look at me any better > than he looks at the trees. We're all the same." > --Janice Sundown Hattet, SENECA > > Sometimes humans think we are the center of the Universe. Sometimes we > think we are above or better than other people or things. The Great > Spirit made a set of Laws and Principles by which all things should > live. Everybody and everything lives by the same Laws. We are all made > of atoms just like the trees. The life force in the middle of the atom > is the life force of the Great Mystery. It is the same for everything. > We are all equal in the eyes of the Creator. > > > Great Spirit, today, I will respect your handiwork. > >

Yes, she is about 20 miles from the administration bldg. I haven't heard back from her yet. Her husband and a few others are still in the building, and I'm going to make sure if it is the Red Cloud building. I think that is the one, but it may not be another bldg and I will find out. Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:36 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] PROBLEMS ON PINE RIDGE-ROSEBUD > Fay, Is Iris from Pine Ridge? Arla > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "faynshep" <faynshep@telapex.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 3:12 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] PROBLEMS ON PINE RIDGE-ROSEBUD > > > > I think it's been nearer to a year. Will check with Iris and see what's > > going on now. > > Fay > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

My daddy said his father would say to anyone who did not properly address an adult, "boy, you better put a handle to that name." Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > opp's or Aunte > Walk in Beauty > Elkdreamer > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > >Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 18:38:33 -0500 > > > >Good for you, Fay! I cannot STAND children who call elders by their first > >name or don't say Maam/Sir. > > > >dusty > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: faynshep <faynshep@telapex.com> > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 3:06 PM > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > I don't know if good manners are Indian ways or southern ways, but I > >raised > > > my children up to say yes mam and no sir, etc. One of mine came home > >from > > > school one day and said to me "what". I asked her if I needed to wash > >out > > > her mouth or her ears and asked did she speak to her teachers that way > >to > > > which she responded, "Ms. Jones doesn't want me to call her Mam" to > >which > >I > > > said "Ms Jones can have no manners if she wishes but that option is not > >open > > > to you, you will call anyone that is 20 years older than you mam or > >sir." > > > Fay > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Linda Branum <mamalin@1s.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:56 AM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > All is well put thats for sure. I have always tried to teach my > >children > > > > to say Yes Sir and No Sir and Yes Mame and No Mame.( Boy I don't think > >I > > > > spelled that right <):-) > > > > Some people think thats not right but to always respect your ELDERS > >is > > > what > > > > I have always been taught. My Dad taught me that and I do love him for > > > that. > > > > There are so many children who don't say that I have always been > >told > > > that > > > > my children were so polite and I feel that me teaching them that my > >Father > > > > taught me is why they feel that way about my children. > > > > Linda > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:13 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Makes perfect sense. Very similar to the way I was raised. The > >fact > > > that > > > > > we were "Indian" was hardly ever brought up. I can't remember ever > > > being > > > > > told that something was the "Indian" way to act....just the "right" > >way > > > to > > > > > act. > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Tsa na Jordan <medicgirl78@yahoo.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 11:13 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, as I look back on my "raising", I see that even though > >we > > > were > > > > > > told that we were Cherokee/Choctaw, we weren't given the religous > > > > culture > > > > > in > > > > > > detail, but we were raised to follow the general Indian beliefs. > >Such > > > > as: > > > > > > environmental protection, respect to animals, and respect of > >elders. > > > I > > > > > had > > > > > > always thought of these as general "good ethics", but the more I > >look > > > at > > > > > > people and the older I get, I realize that these were taught to me > > > > because > > > > > > they were taught to my father, and his father, and his father, > >etc. > > > > They > > > > > > were a "way of life" not something that my elders really thought > > > about, > > > > > just > > > > > > the way they had lived and those before them had lived. Does this > > > make > > > > > > sense? I'm not so good at putting this stuff down in black and > >white. > > > > > > Take care and go safely! > > > > > > Tsana > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:32 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dusty one of the things I see as I am out and about doing shows > >and > > > > > > talking > > > > > > > to people is those people who connect with their long ago > >indigenous > > > > > > > Ancestors seem to have a better grasp of taking care of > >community > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > > Earth.It is those who can't seem to find the connection that > >have > >a > > > > > > problem > > > > > > > with hearing. Arla > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 4:10 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, > > > > getting > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in > >tune > > > > > with > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who > >are > > > > all > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to > >make > > > > > > things > > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > wrong. IMHO > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to > >have > > > no > > > > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something > >inside > > > > that > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of > >the > > > > thick > > > > > > > > > assimilation) > > > > > > > > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise > >that > >we > > > > are > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a > >matter > >of > > > > > > > > "beliefs", > > > > > > > > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other > >race > > > > of > > > > > > > > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can > >learn > > > a > > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do > >so... > > > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander > >through > > > > life > > > > > > > > trying > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they > >don't > > > > fit > > > > > > in. > > > > > > > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's > > > > > defintions > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person > >decides > >to > > > > > look > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel > > > > comfortable. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological > > > > > characteristics. > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The > >sad > > > > > thing > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow > >up > > > > around > > > > > > > > Indians > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing > >is > > > > > > finding > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share > > > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the > >community > >it > > > > > > causes > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are > > > they > > > > > here > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > get? > > > > > > > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing > > > about > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > reverse > > > > > > > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to > >re-embrace > > > > our > > > > > > own > > > > > > > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had > >to > > > live > > > > > > with. > > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new > > > > generations. > > > > > > If > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a > >great > > > > > thing. > > > > > > > > > After > > > > > > > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in > >a > > > > world > > > > > > > shaped > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with > >principles > > > of > > > > > > > > balance. > > > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we > >do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not > > > something > > > > > we > > > > > > > went > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it > >is > > > > born > > > > > in > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised > >surrounded > > > by > > > > a > > > > > > > white > > > > > > > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us > >some > > > > > things, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their > > > attempts > > > > > to > > > > > > > put > > > > > > > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to > >speak, > > > is > > > > at > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > > > > > > > B. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear > >to > > > > > > everyone's > > > > > > > > > > slings > > > > > > > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but > >just > > > > > think > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. > > > I've > > > > > had > > > > > > > > > > countless > > > > > > > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you > >have, > > > as > > > > > long > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our > >ways > > > > > because > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a > > > > > > derogatory > > > > > > > > > name. > > > > > > > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant > >to > > > do > > > > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so > > > exclusive? > > > > > > > Isn't > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no > > > > Indian > > > > > > > blood > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail > >list: > > > > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off > >signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages > >at > > > > > > > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > > > > > > > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" > >without > > > the > > > > > > quotes > > > > > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post > >it > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > > > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at > > > > > > http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > >quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the > >quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > >To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information. Visit Rusty Lang's pages at http://www.choctaw-web.com for articles, censuses, etc. >

yeaah but where is the writtings and records tath that record all of this i think it was under andrew jackson ? no? ----- Original Message ----- From: Lola Crane <lcrane@futureone.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > If the White man had not wanted the Indian Land east of the Mississippi, we > would all be calling Mississippi, Tennessee, Georgia, etc, HOME. > Lola > > Patsy Caleb wrote: > > > I saw a program on the history channel that is almost opposite to that. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:16 PM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > > > > > The Five Civilized Tribes (Choctaw-Cherokee-Creek-Seminole-Chickasaw) were > > > called "civilized" by the government because they were not nomadic, lived > > in > > > permanent communities, were amenable to European ideas and culture and had > > a > > > representative, centralized form of government. They were removed to > > Indian > > > Territory because they held the most desirable lands throughout the > > > southeast, and without removing them beyond the Mississippi River, those > > > lands could not be opened to encroaching white settlement. > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

no also in my history classes we are taught that the reason they were removed was due to uncivilized behavior ----- Original Message ----- From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > Now that would be an interesting one to watch. Do you recall the name? > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:50 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > > > > I saw a program on the history channel that is almost opposite to that. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:16 PM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES > > > > > > > The Five Civilized Tribes (Choctaw-Cherokee-Creek-Seminole-Chickasaw) > were > > > called "civilized" by the government because they were not nomadic, > lived > > in > > > permanent communities, were amenable to European ideas and culture and > had > > a > > > representative, centralized form of government. They were removed to > > Indian > > > Territory because they held the most desirable lands throughout the > > > southeast, and without removing them beyond the Mississippi River, those > > > lands could not be opened to encroaching white settlement. > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

Fay, Is Iris from Pine Ridge? Arla ----- Original Message ----- From: "faynshep" <faynshep@telapex.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] PROBLEMS ON PINE RIDGE-ROSEBUD > I think it's been nearer to a year. Will check with Iris and see what's > going on now. > Fay

Halito Dusty I also call the Spirits to my home. Then smudge with sage to ask the bad one to leave. Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Smudging >Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:28:24 -0500 > >It is my understanding that ceremonies involving "smudging" are done for >purification/strenghtening purposes prior to other ceremonies. We >smudge/smoke ourselves before entering the dance circle at pow wows or >entering a medicine wheel or medicine circle to remove anything that >shouldn't be attached when one steps into these sacred areas. > >dusty >----- Original Message ----- >From: Choctaw <choctaw@bscn.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 12:33 AM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Smudging > > > > Does anyone do smudging ceremonies? Are these Chahta at all? I'm >learning > > to do them, and do feel good about it, but wondered if this was >something > > done long ago. I'd really like to learn more about this. Any idea? > > Shelley > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Again, quoting Debo...."after a period of experimentation, Congress passed a law in 1908 removing all restrictions from the allotments of intermarried whites, freedmen and mixed bloods who had less than one-half Indian blood, and providing protection for other Indians according to degree of Indian blood." (Report Commissioner of Indian Affairs, 1908, pp. 101-3; 1909, p. 375.) dusty

It is my understanding that ceremonies involving "smudging" are done for purification/strenghtening purposes prior to other ceremonies. We smudge/smoke ourselves before entering the dance circle at pow wows or entering a medicine wheel or medicine circle to remove anything that shouldn't be attached when one steps into these sacred areas. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Choctaw <choctaw@bscn.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Smudging > Does anyone do smudging ceremonies? Are these Chahta at all? I'm learning > to do them, and do feel good about it, but wondered if this was something > done long ago. I'd really like to learn more about this. Any idea? > Shelley > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. >