I don't see how this has gotten so out of control. I am trying to research my family tree. In doing so, I was trying to find if there was any Indian blood in our line. You folks who say you are of Indian blood have made me feel like a complete outsider. I have asked a few questions for which I have been threaten with being banned from this list and been fussed at for asking!! Why? Because those who answered me are not in agreement and that starts a debate. I was not born with all the answers, so I must ask questions!! At 12:34 PM 5/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >As stated, there is so much discussion over this and sometimes it is >offensive. From what I have learned from hanging out with mostly "card >carrying" Indians is that the problems that have caused this big "are you a >provable Indian" animosity comes from "New Agers" those who were Indian in >another life, they take the spiritual things of the people and try to "cash >in" on them. They speak like ... well what can only be described as "someone >who has seen dances with wolves one to many times". They give themselves >some made up "made for TV name" and after only a little reading they are >real experts in everything Indian. Or those folks who have hung out around >pow wow so long that they try to convince anyone who will listen that they >are a big time spiritual leader for their tribe and the stuff that they are >teaching as true "tribal ways of their tribe" is that of the Lakota or some >other tribe. It is because of the fakes and phonies that those who can prove >their heritage get offensive about if you really are of Blood or if your >Grandpa was a Chief and your Grandmother was a Princess. >This is just my take on the situation and what I have observed most >provable Indian people are very kind to those who are still looking, when >that person is respectful and does not try to act and speak in a "movie >character" way. > >Recently there was a man within our view who played a flute, he was billed >out as some super spiritual leader there was no proof that he was Indian but >he came before the people telling these "spiritual ways" and how he had to >fast & pray before playing his flute. Although the bull impressed those who >knew nothing about who their were, those who new better were saying that he >was "A white guy playing flute elevator music". After all this talk of >"spiritual ways" he went up to a "real traditionalist" and inviting him to >join him, after he collect his money, to go the hotel bar for brew. This >was a insult to what he was "selling" and cheapened the whole thing. >Just sharing what I have observed and in no way insulting anyone, just >trying to let those who can not understand why "provables" sometimes have >hard feelings. >----- Original Message ----- >From: Markie <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 10:55 AM >Subject: [CHAHTA] Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Re: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-D Digest V00 #346 > > >> >Resent-Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:07:08 -0700 (PDT) >> >From: "Skydancer" <[email protected]> >> >To: [email protected] >> > >> >Jim >> >I don't know what the INDIAN is in people..I know the things I >believe..Does >> >it >> >mean I have to carry a symbol of this on my person..NO it is in my heart. >It >> >does NOT take yours or anyones approval. There is only one person I need >> >approval from and that is the Creator. I am supposed to be part >Irish..but >> >do I >> >need to have a card to prove this too? NO!!! A person that is in tune >with >> >THEMSELVES know who they ARE. This takes no approval from ANYONE. >> >I have heard so much of this CARD..I have just turned down the >opportunity >> >of having a CARD, because I don't need the CARD to tell me who I AM. >> >Creator knows who I am this is enough proof for me. >> >Skydancer >> > >> >May the Creator light your path, >> >and you will forever walk in peace. >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <[email protected]> >> >To: <[email protected]> >> >Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 9:19 AM >> >Subject: Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Re: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-D Digest V00 #346 >> > >> > >> >| I just don't quite see the logic in this. You mean that all a person >has >> >to >> >| do is say they are Indian and they WILL BE reconized as such? WHO will >> >| reconize them without proof? >> >| >> >| >> >| >> >| >> >| At 12:47 AM 5/23/00 EDT, you wrote: >> >| >In a message dated 05/22/2000 8:37:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> >| >[email protected] writes: >> >| > >> >| ><< Unfortunately, we Natives have to have proof in order to enroll in >a >> >| > Federally recognized tribe. It does not mean we are not as good as >> >other >> >| > people, it's just the way things are. >> >| > >> >| > Carol Jean >> >> >| >I understand that we must have proof to enroll. My point is that we >> >don't >> >| >need proof to be Indian. >> >| > >> > >> >> >> ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >> Home Page: >> http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.htm >> Choctaw Chat: >> http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/chat.htm >> >> > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Home Page: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.htm >Choctaw Chat: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/chat.htm > > > Jim Morrison, Jr. [email protected] www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/

True, but in the long run the way to find out who you are is to spend the time learning from those who know. You must have the desire to learn and seek it out, no one will bring it to you. My other side is Irish, to this day, Ireland has not came to me to teach me about being Irish. Even though on my father's side both of his parent and every generation before were born & raised in Ireland, my grand parents came here and my dad is the first gen. born in the US. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Re: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-D Digest V00 #346 > How many tribes are helping people to find out who they are, one in ten ?? > Paul > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: > Send msg. to [email protected] > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

I am certainly glad that you have had the opportunity to leave your children that legacy. Carol Jean

In a message dated 5/24/00 10:59:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << I am leaving a legacy for my children and grandchildren by teaching them what I know, what I have learned from others. I have six grown children, and 13 grandchildren. I have taken my grand children to ceremonies at the crack of dawn so they will remember who they are. I tell them stories, I teach them history and what their ancestors lived through, and the struggles they had in their life time. I teach them to respect our Mother Earth, and what She means to us as human beings. I teach them about Prayer, and respect for our Elders, along with other things. To me this "is" their legacy. Again, this is me personally, but I believe that one of the greatest legacies we can leave our children or grand children are memories. Memories that they will never forget... memories that will make them proud of who they are and who their ancestors were. In turn they will pass this down to their children, after I am gone, so our people will continue to survive. Even tho I did have one daughter-in-law who though I was in some sort of cult!! LOL Markie >> You said it all Paul

Halito Robin, If you go on the internet under Native American / Pow wow you should be able to find listings in your area. Or go to the Native American Clinics or schools in your area and ask them ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: [CHAHTA] Re: CHAHTA-D Digest V00 #49 > Hi. Does anyone have pow wow dates for Mississippi? I want to visit > soon. Thanks in advance. > ===== > Robin > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: > Send msg. to [email protected] > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

Yakoke, Cathy. That is exactly what we are saying ----- Original Message ----- From: cctraders <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Re: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-D Digest V00 #346 > I am new to the list and have just been on the sidelines mostly reading and > soaking in all that is being said. I can agree with some of what most people > are saying. True there are some who will always look down on those of us who > do not have a card. That does not make us any less Indian in our hearts and > souls. I can see their wariness as they have already had so much taken away > from them and are leery that it might be just another ploy that will strip > away just a little more of their heritage. But I have also found that if you > approach things with a sincere and open heart and don't go overboard trying > to push your way into their circle they will take the time to look and will > see the 'spirit' that you carry inside. Once they do it has been my > experience that they will open up to you, accept you into their hearts and > lives whether you can prove a paper trail or not and whether you are of > their same tribe or not. So many times they have been 'put off' by some of > these folks who are so anxious to be 'indian' that they grab onto a little > bit of this and that regardless of what tribe it came from just because it > sounds good or looks good. And to make matters worse they will not listen to > anything different from what they read in so and so's book or such and such > 'medicine person' told them. Those are the ones that make it hard for some > of the rest of us out here without cards or strikingly visible blood lines > to be accepted by the native community. But if you just hang in there and > conduct yourself in a proper manner the truth will always win out. Thanks > for letting me vent my feelings. I intend no disrespect to anyone whether we > may agree or not. Just thought I'd put my two cents worth in. > Cathy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:26 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Re: [CHOCTAW-SE] Re: CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-D Digest V00 > #346 > > > > I would also like to share something. There are card-carrying Indians who > > try to mislead the people who want to know about their heritage. I know > for > > a fact of one person in Oklahoma who is in the NA chatrooms constantly > asking > > for money for his "tribe." He is what might be termed, "meat, for the > beasts > > of the field." (Prophet Ezekiel) > > > > I would like to say something about the comment about seeing "Dances with > > Wolves." Personally, I have only seen it twice. It didn't really do > > anything for me, but the Creator speaks to the hearts of people through > all > > mediums. Yes, there are "New Agers," though there is nothing new about > them > > but I also believe that our ancestors are awakening us and this is what > might > > be called a Native American spiritual revival. > > > > Though I do no belong to any organized religion I remember the biblical > story > > of the chaff and the wheat (NT teaching of Jesus), to let them grow up > > together lest they take out the wheat, instead of the chaff; when the > times > > comes to separate them, it will be done by the ones who knows the hearts > and > > minds of the human being. > > > > In closing, I am reminded of a line in a movie I did see. The words were > > profound. "Listen to the wind, it'll tell you things, Kola." (Graham > Greene > > to Val Kilmer, Thunderheart) > > > > Carol Jean > > > > Carol Jean > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.htm > > Choctaw Chat: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/chat.htm > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.htm > Choctaw Chat: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/chat.htm > >

Unfortunately for Arla, the reason that she has to have the card to sell or show her baskets as "Authenic Native American Made" is because of those New agers, fakes and phonies who look at the craft of the Indian person and say, hey I can do that and make a lot of money off of it. So the Indian person who that may be the only means of income, because they can't get a job because of the discrimination in the job market, suffers. If the fakes and frauds had not ruined it for the rest, there would not be a need for this law. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: John & Arla Williams <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 1980 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Blood Quantum, or Card Carrying > I too, as of this date am not a card carrying Indian.The only time I was ever asked is when someone asked if I would like to exhibit my baskets at a pow wow and I can't here in Oklahoma without a card. > There are still shows I can do that are classified Native American and Nature. I had a Navajo ask me to exhibit at Mesa Verde and all they wanted was some kind of document stating that I was Indian. > If we are not fullbloods we have another part that needs to be honored and descrimination comes in all colors.When you go to a pow wow here everyone talks and is sociable and couldn't care less if you are a card carrying Indian.No one asks how much Indian are you. > In all my life I have only had two times when I was looked at as less,by another Indian.I wasn't as dark so evidently I wasn't Indian. I would say that wasn't an Indian thing on their part but a personal issue they hadn't dealt with within themselves. > I have to address my white side as well as my Indian side. My husband in his infinite wisdom helps me to remember that. We were at Tushkahoma reading some old articles about trading between Choctaw Basketweavers and farmers. My husbands family were big farmers in MS. I asked my husband if he thought my family had traded with his family? He looked at me and said Arla,your family probably traded with each other. > Yes I would love to have a CDIB card.I may never, but card or not I want to be who I am and honor all parts of myself.I want to learn all I can about my heritage.For centuries there was only oral history.If that is all I am to have on my family then I will continue to pass that history to my children and grandchildren. > I have learned much from these Choctaw lists and plan to learn more. > Chi Holloli Arla > > > > > > > Thank you, you hit the nail on the head! You are exactly correct. As a > > "non card carrying" Indian myself, who hangs out with.. from full bloods > > all the way down to a little bit of blood.... and from many different > > tribes... some are elders on the council of their tribes. I have always > > been treated with respect for who I am, not my blood quantum. Not once > > have I been asked "do you have a CDIB card?"... not once have I been asked > > "how much blood are you?"... nor.. "are you a real Indian?" You're right > > when you say you can spot someone who has been watching to many movies! > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/index.htm > Choctaw Chat: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/chat.htm > >

How many tribes are helping people to find out who they are, one in ten ?? Paul

Yakoke Jami ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Blood Quantum, or Card Carrying > Carol Jean, > What Markie is saying is that there are people out there who specifically > exploit the issue of native american spirituality and heritage. > There are groups that you can pay a fee too and become a member > of their tribe. Those groups are not legitimate and are profiting from those > who cannot prove their heritage. There are spiritualist who make up their > own religion, give classes on it and profit by selling out. > Being Indian is not something you can buy. It is not something you > can learn on the computer. It is not something that you can instantly > plug into a genealogy chart on. It is a life that is instilled from your > ancestors. > It is learning the tribal ways from your elders. It is fighting for issues > which > affect those that have fought their whole lives to overcome. It is these > things > and many more. > > Nan aiya > Jami > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: > Send msg. to [email protected] > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

Carol Jean You stated: I think that people can and should become active in active in a > tribal community if they live in close proximity. What bothers me about your > post is that you say you can spot someone who has "seen a lot of movies." > I'm not sure just what that means. What this means is people who go around pretending that they are the people they see on the movies, that is their "idea" of what it is to be Indian. In reality it is very far from it. They try to talk in a different way when they are "playing Indian" then monday morning in the office the speak with pure anglo saxton english. (which by the way most Indian people also do.) Maybe your full-blood and and other friends respect you but in the final analysis, if you are asked for some reason to back up your statement that you are Indian, you will be in the proverbial pickle. No she will not be. When one is true it shines through, I would bet my life on the full blood friends I have, those "provable" with 1/236 degree of blood. True Indian people do not play the games that you see in our society today, unless they have chosen to walk the white road. Then you can bank on them doing just what everyone else might do, there do the term "apple" red on the outside white on the inside. I hear people who describe themselves as Indians and call others (who admittedly may be a might overzealous) "new agers" or "wannabees" because they don't have all of the right friends and aren't as knowledgable about Native ways, it becomes a bitter pill to swallow. It has nothing to do with who ones friends are, knowledge of OUR OWN tribal ways is obtainable if one is willing to be in the right state of mind. Be respectful, when someone tries to teach us, we should listen and learn & not get our nose out of joint because something said rubs us the wrong way (because we do not understand it). Sometimes Indian people are VERY blunt and many have a very dry sense of humor. When we take everything as though the teller is picking on us, then the doors of our mind are shut and we will never understand what is being said. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Blood Quantum, or Card Carrying > In a message dated 5/24/00 1:49:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > << > Thank you, you hit the nail on the head! You are exactly correct. As a > "non card carrying" Indian myself, who hangs out with. from full bloods > all the way down to a little bit of blood.... and from many different > tribes... some are elders on the council of their tribes. I have always > been treated with respect for who I am, not my blood quantum. Not once > have I been asked "do you have a CDIB card?"... not once have I been asked > "how much blood are you?"... nor.. "are you a real Indian?" You're right > when you say you can spot someone who has been watching to many movies! > The people I know, talk just like everyone else. I have spent time in many > of their homes, and they are just the same! Everyone laughs, and talks > normal just like me. <G> Well... OK... I may sound a little bit more > country than some of them! haha > > Markie > >> > > > Markie, do you not want a CDIB card? If you don't, that is perfectly all > right. I think that people can and should become active in active in a > tribal community if they live in close proximity. What bothers me about your > post is that you say you can spot someone who has "seen a lot of movies." > I'm not sure just what that means. > > For one who has seen lots of movies, you may remember a movie called, > "Exodus." > In it Peter Lawford, portraying a British officer, is talking to Paul Newman, > impersonating a British officer. Lawford tells News that he can "spot a Jew > a mile away." Newman is chuckling to himself, for the statement he has just > heard. > > Maybe your full-blood and and other friends respect you but in the final > analysis, if you are asked for some reason to back up your statement that you > are Indian, you will be in the proverbial pickle. > > By the way, I belong to a state-recognized tribe in West Virginia (Applachian > American Indians of West Virginia). I am not federally recognized yet, but > working on it. Does that mean I will look down on others for not wanting or > having their cards? Not one bit. What another wants to do is their > business, but when I hear people who describe themselves as Indians and call > others (who admittedly may be a might overzealous) "new agers" or "wannabees" > because they don't have all of the right friends and aren't as knowledgable > about Native ways, it becomes a bitter pill to swallow. > > Carol Jean > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: > Send msg. to [email protected] > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

Hi Ellen, Sure I'll be friends with a card carrying Choctaw. Will you let me look at it once in a while???? <<G>> Everyone is doing fine. I spent the weekend with three of the grand daughters. We went to the Tunica-Biloxi Pow Wow in Marksville, La. We played Hotel more than anything else tho. They wanted to stay in the swimming pool all the time. It rained that morning but we danced until about 4, then went to cool off and rest. Came back at 7 for grand entry. Taylor (5) fell down and skinned her knee real bad on the concrete, so back to the hotel we went about 9. It didn't hurt a bit after that! It was time to swim again. LOL We had a really good time together. The boys have deserted grandma. They are reaching 14 years old, so they had rather be at the stock car races with Dad, or riding their four wheelers than go with grandma anymore. I have one four year old who is having a fit to dance. I've got to make him his grass dance regalia. That's the easiest one to make since they grow so fast. I have to do something fast, he wants to dance so bad, he keeps wanting to wear Taylor's Jingle Dress!! LOL I have to swap the kids out because I can't handle all of them at once. <G> Leona's doing fine right now. Her surgery is the 5th. I'll be keeping her kids at their house, and fighting her husband for his computer!! hahaha He's a sweetheart tho, thank goodness. Maybe he will let me have a turn at it too. :) Markie At 08:02 PM 05/24/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Hi! > >I thought some of that mail would get you going! Well said! > >Will you be a friend to a card carry Choctaw that knows next to nothing >about being Choctaw. > >How is you daughter doing? How are the grandbabies doing, Grandma? That >includes your son and his babies. > >I am grateful for you getting the talk on Chahta!. Thank you very much. Take >time ever once in a while to let me know how you guys are doing. I do care! > >Ellen >

Hey there, Right, you understood where I was coming from. Sometimes I have sound tracks of Smoke Signals going off in my head, that one that was kinda a laugh on stereo types, & the one young kid always tried so hard to "sound" Indian. I wasn't really ready to come home but somehow this got to me and ooppps I could not help but say, I miss it all. Ellen said you had a good pow wow, the gathering had 2000 in attendance, we figured on 1500 it doesn't sound like much more, but it was, however it was great. We had traditional dress making classes, Choctaw style beading classes, games, Charlie Jones was fabulous, for the opening ceremony he sang "Meditation on death" that our ancestors sang each evening on the trail of tears. I can not even begin to list everything it was great, but as you know the ones who put it on work all weekend and really do not get to see the classes, events, etc.. Speaking of sounding a little more country than most, have you hear those from our tribal complex ;-) there are a couple that I love to just listen to them talk, I don't care what they are talking about, it is just that smooth slow southern sound that is so neat to hear. Theresa ----- Original Message ----- From: Markie <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Blood Quantum, or Card Carrying > Hi Theresa, > > Welcome HOME!! <G> > > Thank you, you hit the nail on the head! You are exactly correct. As a > "non card carrying" Indian myself, who hangs out with.. from full bloods > all the way down to a little bit of blood.... and from many different > tribes... some are elders on the council of their tribes. I have always > been treated with respect for who I am, not my blood quantum. Not once > have I been asked "do you have a CDIB card?"... not once have I been asked > "how much blood are you?"... nor.. "are you a real Indian?" You're right > when you say you can spot someone who has been watching to many movies! > The people I know, talk just like everyone else. I have spent time in many > of their homes, and they are just the same! Everyone laughs, and talks > normal just like me. <G> Well... OK... I may sound a little bit more > country than some of them! haha > > Markie > > At 12:34 PM 05/24/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >As stated, there is so much discussion over this and sometimes it is > >offensive. From what I have learned from hanging out with mostly "card > >carrying" Indians is that the problems that have caused this big "are you a > >provable Indian" animosity comes from "New Agers" those who were Indian in > >another life, they take the spiritual things of the people and try to "cash > >in" on them. They speak like ... well what can only be described as "someone > >who has seen dances with wolves one to many times". They give themselves > >some made up "made for TV name" and after only a little reading they are > >real experts in everything Indian. Or those folks who have hung out around > >pow wow so long that they try to convince anyone who will listen that they > >are a big time spiritual leader for their tribe and the stuff that they are > >teaching as true "tribal ways of their tribe" is that of the Lakota or some > >other tribe. It is because of the fakes and phonies that those who can prove > >their heritage get offensive about if you really are of Blood or if your > >Grandpa was a Chief and your Grandmother was a Princess. > >This is just my take on the situation and what I have observed most > >provable Indian people are very kind to those who are still looking, when > >that person is respectful and does not try to act and speak in a "movie > >character" way. > > > >Recently there was a man within our view who played a flute, he was billed > >out as some super spiritual leader there was no proof that he was Indian but > >he came before the people telling these "spiritual ways" and how he had to > >fast & pray before playing his flute. Although the bull impressed those who > >knew nothing about who their were, those who new better were saying that he > >was "A white guy playing flute elevator music". After all this talk of > >"spiritual ways" he went up to a "real traditionalist" and inviting him to > >join him, after he collect his money, to go the hotel bar for brew. This > >was a insult to what he was "selling" and cheapened the whole thing. > >Just sharing what I have observed and in no way insulting anyone, just > >trying to let those who can not understand why "provables" sometimes have > >hard feelings. > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: > Send msg. to [email protected] > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

Carol Jean, I didn't say it wasn't important. I was speaking for me personally. "I" can not get a card from any federally recognized tribe. Just me, I'm not speaking for anyone else except me. For me "personally", it would not change my life in any way. If I needed any of the benifits, like the old saying goes.. I'd be up the creek without a paddle! I can't change the government, so why get upset about it? I wasn't around in 1840 when my ancestors left MS. to come to Lousiana, and never went to Oklahoma. It's not my fault!! BUT, I feel that anyone else who can "prove" their descent from a Final Tribal roll "should" get a CDIB card, and hopefully they will be an asset to their tribes. I thought we were on the subject of... you're an Indian if you have a card, and you're not an Indian if you don't?? I got lost here in the shuffle somewhere??? I am leaving a legacy for my children and grandchildren by teaching them what I know, what I have learned from others. I have six grown children, and 13 grandchildren. I have taken my grand children to ceremonies at the crack of dawn so they will remember who they are. I tell them stories, I teach them history and what their ancestors lived through, and the struggles they had in their life time. I teach them to respect our Mother Earth, and what She means to us as human beings. I teach them about Prayer, and respect for our Elders, along with other things. To me this "is" their legacy. Again, this is me personally, but I believe that one of the greatest legacies we can leave our children or grand children are memories. Memories that they will never forget... memories that will make them proud of who they are and who their ancestors were. In turn they will pass this down to their children, after I am gone, so our people will continue to survive. Even tho I did have one daughter-in-law who though I was in some sort of cult!! LOL Markie At 08:51 PM 05/24/2000 EDT, you wrote: >I >Dear Markie: > >I really don't understand you. Your children are members of the Osage Nation >and as such, have certain benefits. Obviously there are people who would like >the card to have the benefits that you say that you don't need, but if you >did need couldn't get anyway. > >I would like to be connected to a "Federal Recognized Tribe" (I absolutely >abhor that phrase, but it is the one that is necessary to use) to leave a >legacy for my children and grandchildren. As a disabled, divorced, single >parent of six (young adults, the youngest being 18), I would like them to >have the advantages that my ancestors nor I could take part in. > >If having a CDIB card and blood quantum wasn't important, there wouldn't be >so much ruckus about it. > >Carol Jean > >

I Dear Markie: I really don't understand you. Your children are members of the Osage Nation and as such, have certain benefits. Obviously there are people who would like the card to have the benefits that you say that you don't need, but if you did need couldn't get anyway. I would like to be connected to a "Federal Recognized Tribe" (I absolutely abhor that phrase, but it is the one that is necessary to use) to leave a legacy for my children and grandchildren. As a disabled, divorced, single parent of six (young adults, the youngest being 18), I would like them to have the advantages that my ancestors nor I could take part in. If having a CDIB card and blood quantum wasn't important, there wouldn't be so much ruckus about it. Carol Jean

Hi! I thought some of that mail would get you going! Well said! Will you be a friend to a card carry Choctaw that knows next to nothing about being Choctaw. How is you daughter doing? How are the grandbabies doing, Grandma? That includes your son and his babies. I am grateful for you getting the talk on Chahta!. Thank you very much. Take time ever once in a while to let me know how you guys are doing. I do care! Ellen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Markie" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Blood Quantum, or Card Carrying > Carol Jean, > > I am not eligible according to the US Gov. to ever get a card. My > ancestors came to Louisiana from MS. in 1840. They were not on any rolls > anywhere that I have found. If they were, it was with Choctaw & Cherokee > names, which I don't know at this time. Which doesn't matter anyway, as > they did not live with any of the tribes at the time of the final rolls. > > Now, let's "play like" I could get a card. Ok, I have it... now, why > would I need one? I don't need any of the medical advantagtes, I have my > own medical insurance. I don't want to drive five hours to Broken Bow to > the nearest Clinic when I can see my Doctor here at home. I don't want to > live in Oklahoma, so I don't need the housing. Education? Well, I'm 54 > and don't plan on going to college at this late date. My children are > registered members of the Osage Nation of Oklahoma, but when one of my > daughters applied for college money, she turned it down, because she didn't > want to go to the colleges that they said she had to go to. She wanted to > go here in Louisiana. So I didn't use the education money. Maybe someone > needs to tell me the advantages of having a card that I don't know about???? > > The point I'm trying to make is the fact that having a CDIB card will not > change one single thing in my life one way or the other. I would not trade > my parents for any other, or grandparents, or ancestors. I am who I am! > Nothing will, or can, change that fact. I have never worried over if I > could get a card or not get a card. I am accepted in the Indian community > as Indian, because of who I am, not because of the card in my purse. > > >Maybe your full-blood and and other friends respect you but in the final > >analysis, if you are asked for some reason to back up your statement that > you > >are Indian, you will be in the proverbial pickle. > > Why on earth would I ever be asked to prove I am Indian? Who would care? > No one that I know. I don't think I will ever go anyplace that I haven't > already been, and no one has ever asked me to prove I am an Indian so far > in my life! I don't feel the "need" to prove it to anybody. Simple....I > know who I am! Wheither someone believes it or not doesn't matter to me, > that's their problem, not mine. > > >What bothers me about your > >post is that you say you can spot someone who has "seen a lot of movies." > >I'm not sure just what that means. > > >but when I hear people who describe themselves as Indians and call > >others (who admittedly may be a might overzealous) "new agers" or > "wannabees" > >because they don't have all of the right friends and aren't as knowledgable > >about Native ways, it becomes a bitter pill to swallow. > > We are talking here, I guess, about a whole different topic. There are > people who you will find at Pow Wows and gatherings of Indian people that > "act" like they came from a movie, shall we say. They talk the "medicine > man" talk. They think they know so much already, they are never open to > learning the real ways, as they are to busy acting out what they read in a > book or saw in a movie. They will talk endlessly about all the "Indian > medicine ways" they know. That's why they are so easy to spot, they never > shut their mouth! Some of the things they do, or say, is disrespectful to > the traditions of Indian people. You get respect, when you show respect. > You never walk up to a full blood elder of his tribe and start telling him > all about his own tribe. I have seen this happen. You listen to HIM tell > YOU about his tribe, out of respect for who he is. That's how a person > learns. You listen to the ones who know. You respect where you are, who > you are around, and what is going on. I don't know what else to say, It's > just that simple. > > Markie > > At 05:15 PM 05/24/2000 EDT, you wrote: > >Markie, do you not want a CDIB card? If you don't, that is perfectly all > >right. I think that people can and should become active in active in a > >tribal community if they live in close proximity. What bothers me about > your > >post is that you say you can spot someone who has "seen a lot of movies." > >I'm not sure just what that means. > > > >For one who has seen lots of movies, you may remember a movie called, > >"Exodus." > >In it Peter Lawford, portraying a British officer, is talking to Paul > Newman, > >impersonating a British officer. Lawford tells News that he can "spot a Jew > >a mile away." Newman is chuckling to himself, for the statement he has just > >heard. > > > >Maybe your full-blood and and other friends respect you but in the final > >analysis, if you are asked for some reason to back up your statement that > you > >are Indian, you will be in the proverbial pickle. > > > >By the way, I belong to a state-recognized tribe in West Virginia > (Applachian > >American Indians of West Virginia). I am not federally recognized yet, but > >working on it. Does that mean I will look down on others for not wanting or > >having their cards? Not one bit. What another wants to do is their > >business, but when I hear people who describe themselves as Indians and call > >others (who admittedly may be a might overzealous) "new agers" or > "wannabees" > >because they don't have all of the right friends and aren't as knowledgable > >about Native ways, it becomes a bitter pill to swallow. > > > >Carol Jean > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To Unsubscribe: > Send msg. to [email protected] > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

Cathy, >But I have also found that if you >approach things with a sincere and open heart and don't go overboard trying >to push your way into their circle they will take the time to look and will >see the 'spirit' that you carry inside. Once they do it has been my >experience that they will open up to you, accept you into their hearts and >lives whether you can prove a paper trail or not and whether you are of >their same tribe or not. You are so right. You explained it so well. This has been my experience also. As with any other people if you show respect, you will receive respect. Markie At 05:02 PM 05/24/2000 -0500, you wrote: >I am new to the list and have just been on the sidelines mostly reading and >soaking in all that is being said. I can agree with some of what most people >are saying. True there are some who will always look down on those of us who >do not have a card. That does not make us any less Indian in our hearts and >souls. I can see their wariness as they have already had so much taken away >from them and are leery that it might be just another ploy that will strip >away just a little more of their heritage. But I have also found that if you >approach things with a sincere and open heart and don't go overboard trying >to push your way into their circle they will take the time to look and will >see the 'spirit' that you carry inside. Once they do it has been my >experience that they will open up to you, accept you into their hearts and >lives whether you can prove a paper trail or not and whether you are of >their same tribe or not. So many times they have been 'put off' by some of >these folks who are so anxious to be 'indian' that they grab onto a little >bit of this and that regardless of what tribe it came from just because it >sounds good or looks good. And to make matters worse they will not listen to >anything different from what they read in so and so's book or such and such >'medicine person' told them. Those are the ones that make it hard for some >of the rest of us out here without cards or strikingly visible blood lines >to be accepted by the native community. But if you just hang in there and >conduct yourself in a proper manner the truth will always win out. Thanks >for letting me vent my feelings. I intend no disrespect to anyone whether we >may agree or not. Just thought I'd put my two cents worth in. >Cathy

Carol Jean, I am not eligible according to the US Gov. to ever get a card. My ancestors came to Louisiana from MS. in 1840. They were not on any rolls anywhere that I have found. If they were, it was with Choctaw & Cherokee names, which I don't know at this time. Which doesn't matter anyway, as they did not live with any of the tribes at the time of the final rolls. Now, let's "play like" I could get a card. Ok, I have it... now, why would I need one? I don't need any of the medical advantagtes, I have my own medical insurance. I don't want to drive five hours to Broken Bow to the nearest Clinic when I can see my Doctor here at home. I don't want to live in Oklahoma, so I don't need the housing. Education? Well, I'm 54 and don't plan on going to college at this late date. My children are registered members of the Osage Nation of Oklahoma, but when one of my daughters applied for college money, she turned it down, because she didn't want to go to the colleges that they said she had to go to. She wanted to go here in Louisiana. So I didn't use the education money. Maybe someone needs to tell me the advantages of having a card that I don't know about???? The point I'm trying to make is the fact that having a CDIB card will not change one single thing in my life one way or the other. I would not trade my parents for any other, or grandparents, or ancestors. I am who I am! Nothing will, or can, change that fact. I have never worried over if I could get a card or not get a card. I am accepted in the Indian community as Indian, because of who I am, not because of the card in my purse. >Maybe your full-blood and and other friends respect you but in the final >analysis, if you are asked for some reason to back up your statement that you >are Indian, you will be in the proverbial pickle. Why on earth would I ever be asked to prove I am Indian? Who would care? No one that I know. I don't think I will ever go anyplace that I haven't already been, and no one has ever asked me to prove I am an Indian so far in my life! I don't feel the "need" to prove it to anybody. Simple....I know who I am! Wheither someone believes it or not doesn't matter to me, that's their problem, not mine. >What bothers me about your >post is that you say you can spot someone who has "seen a lot of movies." >I'm not sure just what that means. >but when I hear people who describe themselves as Indians and call >others (who admittedly may be a might overzealous) "new agers" or "wannabees" >because they don't have all of the right friends and aren't as knowledgable >about Native ways, it becomes a bitter pill to swallow. We are talking here, I guess, about a whole different topic. There are people who you will find at Pow Wows and gatherings of Indian people that "act" like they came from a movie, shall we say. They talk the "medicine man" talk. They think they know so much already, they are never open to learning the real ways, as they are to busy acting out what they read in a book or saw in a movie. They will talk endlessly about all the "Indian medicine ways" they know. That's why they are so easy to spot, they never shut their mouth! Some of the things they do, or say, is disrespectful to the traditions of Indian people. You get respect, when you show respect. You never walk up to a full blood elder of his tribe and start telling him all about his own tribe. I have seen this happen. You listen to HIM tell YOU about his tribe, out of respect for who he is. That's how a person learns. You listen to the ones who know. You respect where you are, who you are around, and what is going on. I don't know what else to say, It's just that simple. Markie At 05:15 PM 05/24/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Markie, do you not want a CDIB card? If you don't, that is perfectly all >right. I think that people can and should become active in active in a >tribal community if they live in close proximity. What bothers me about your >post is that you say you can spot someone who has "seen a lot of movies." >I'm not sure just what that means. > >For one who has seen lots of movies, you may remember a movie called, >"Exodus." >In it Peter Lawford, portraying a British officer, is talking to Paul Newman, >impersonating a British officer. Lawford tells News that he can "spot a Jew >a mile away." Newman is chuckling to himself, for the statement he has just >heard. > >Maybe your full-blood and and other friends respect you but in the final >analysis, if you are asked for some reason to back up your statement that you >are Indian, you will be in the proverbial pickle. > >By the way, I belong to a state-recognized tribe in West Virginia (Applachian >American Indians of West Virginia). I am not federally recognized yet, but >working on it. Does that mean I will look down on others for not wanting or >having their cards? Not one bit. What another wants to do is their >business, but when I hear people who describe themselves as Indians and call >others (who admittedly may be a might overzealous) "new agers" or "wannabees" >because they don't have all of the right friends and aren't as knowledgable >about Native ways, it becomes a bitter pill to swallow. > >Carol Jean

Hi. Does anyone have pow wow dates for Mississippi? I want to visit soon. Thanks in advance. ===== Robin

In a message dated 5/24/00 2:35:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << Carol Jean, What Markie is saying is that there are people out there who specifically exploit the issue of native american spirituality and heritage. There are groups that you can pay a fee too and become a member of their tribe. Those groups are not legitimate and are profiting from those who cannot prove their heritage. There are spiritualist who make up their own religion, give classes on it and profit by selling out. Being Indian is not something you can buy. It is not something you can learn on the computer. It is not something that you can instantly plug into a genealogy chart on. It is a life that is instilled from your ancestors. It is learning the tribal ways from your elders. It is fighting for issues which affect those that have fought their whole lives to overcome. It is these things and many more. Nan aiya Jami >> I understand and appreciate what you are saying Jami, but it is not just non-Indians who are in the exploitation business (I know this for a fact). You are always going to find people who are takers and you are going to find those who follow like a horse with blinders on. Carol Jean

Carol Jean, What Markie is saying is that there are people out there who specifically exploit the issue of native american spirituality and heritage. There are groups that you can pay a fee too and become a member of their tribe. Those groups are not legitimate and are profiting from those who cannot prove their heritage. There are spiritualist who make up their own religion, give classes on it and profit by selling out. Being Indian is not something you can buy. It is not something you can learn on the computer. It is not something that you can instantly plug into a genealogy chart on. It is a life that is instilled from your ancestors. It is learning the tribal ways from your elders. It is fighting for issues which affect those that have fought their whole lives to overcome. It is these things and many more. Nan aiya Jami