If I may ask, who might "those" be? Are there Choctaws included in "those?" At 09:59 PM 04/05/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I agree with everything you say. Unfortunately, there are those who do not >want us back. They reject us as having been "tainted" by too much white >blood, too much white ideas, and a million other excuses. > >dusty >----- Original Message ----- >From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:36 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Halito Barbara, Gemma And Dusty > > Last night I was talking to my nephew about the problem that we are >having > > of our kids getting involved with gangs and such. I was looking back on my > > life and the road that I took and tried to explain why It took that >course. > > In my experience I believe Indian people have a innerself that needs to be >a > > part of a tribe, this is our makeup our genetic being and our ancestors > > survival trait. In this day and age a lot of us being removed from the > > tribal closeness that were searching for took a lot of different roads. > > Luckly some of us finally found the Red road and are coming back to the >home > > fires of our people. > > When the rest finally find their way back we need to be there to help > > them. > > For seven generations > > Walk in Beauty > > Elkdreamer > > > > >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:01:33 -0500 > > > > > >Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no >knowledge > > >of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > >different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > >assimilation) > > >And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > > >"second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of >"beliefs", > > >and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > >people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > > >way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > >B. > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > >Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > > >trying > > >to > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > >good > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > >their > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It >is > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. >It > > >is > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > >that > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > > >Indians > > >and > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > > >the > > >few > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes >us > > >to > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here >to > > >get? > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > >reverse > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > >This > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If >we > > >can > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > >After > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world >shaped > > >by > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > >balance. > > >It > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we >went > > >to > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in >us > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a >white > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, >but > > >they > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to >put > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at >best > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > > slings > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > > >our > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > > countless > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long >as > > >it's > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > >works > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > >name. > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? >Isn't > > >that > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian >blood > > >at > > > > all > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > >quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at >http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > >Choctaw Home Page: > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com Regards, Dennis K. Boswell 301 Crow Canyon Drive Folsom, CA 95630 Tel: (916) 987-3599 Fax: (916) 987-3555

I like that idea, Linda. It emphasizes the one thing you all have in common - full blooded ancestors while deemphasizing the path each of you took in your travels that brought you to this day. Note my use of "you." As several of you know, I am not NA, but am enjoying this conversation immensely while learning much. nd At 10:11 PM 04/05/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Dusty and all, > I want to say that my brother looks full blood Indian but we are just >1/32. I don't look a bit like and Indian but I have the same amt of blood as >he does. > I feel the amt of Indian doesn't matter. We are all brothers and sisters >just some of us have proof and others don't. > I think we should all remember TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL. All of >us need to unite together and stop worring about how much blood we have but >our people were all at one time full blood so who cares if you are full or >just a little. You are still my sister and brother and all are NA. >Regards, Linda Kirby Branum > > (Guynes and Sain are my Indian heritage surnames) Guynes being Choctaw and >documented and Sain Cherokee undocumented. But I feel ancestors calling from >both!! >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:29 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Gemma and all: > > > > I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community still > > exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many > > different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from other > > listmembers. > > > > What is the state of the Indian community today..... > > Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? > > Lifestyle? Beliefs? > > > > There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as to > > "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are "bloods". > > Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian enough". > > Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? Don't > > quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of that. > > > > I want the opinions of others on this list. > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > > Tommie > > > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > > trying to > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > good > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > their > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It >is > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. >It > > is > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > that > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > > Indians and > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > > the few > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes >us > > to > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here >to > > get? > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > reverse > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > This > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If >we > > can > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > After > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world >shaped > > by > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > balance. It > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we >went > > to > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in >us > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a >white > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, >but > > they > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to >put > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at >best > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > > slings > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > > our > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > > countless > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long >as > > it's > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > works > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > name. > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? >Isn't > > that > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian >blood > > at > > > > all > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at >http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com Regards, Dennis K. Boswell 301 Crow Canyon Drive Folsom, CA 95630 Tel: (916) 987-3599 Fax: (916) 987-3555

Halito Dusty and to all on List. As you know the US.government dosn't specify what the blood quantrum must be to be Indian. It states,if the tribe reconises them that is enough for them. Years ago in the prison system the brothers there felt that if you didn't have a card or something to prove that you were Indian you wasn't, and guranteed there was some that wantsd to be a part of what we had there that had no Indian in them at all. But as more City Indians as we called them started to come into the system we had to be more open minded. We were placed there to teach not Judge. I read something on the internet a while back it stated that Indian blood no matter how thin, shines like gold. I believe that Indianess comes from the heart no matter what the blood quantrum is. I have been in the Sweat lodge with brothers from all Nations and it was a good Sweat. I have walked on the prison yard with Brothers from all Nations with all different degrees of Indian blood. What mattered to me was not how much Indian blood they had, but how much Indian were they. In this Day and Age there are not very many full bloods of any Indian Race. They may be full blood Indian but it usually two or three or more different tribes mixed togeather. It is not important what the mix is , What is important is what is inside of you. Grandfather is the only one that has the right to say who is Indian and who is not. And in a Sweat Lodge I have seen him do it. Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 20:29:26 -0500 > >Gemma and all: > >I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community still >exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many >different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from other >listmembers. > >What is the state of the Indian community today..... >Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? >Lifestyle? Beliefs? > >There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as to >"who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are "bloods". >Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian enough". >Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? Don't >quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of that. > >I want the opinions of others on this list. > >dusty > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > Tommie > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life >trying to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of >good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to >their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It >is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. >It >is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is >that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around >Indians and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding >the few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes >us >to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here >to >get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this >reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. >This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If >we >can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. >After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world >shaped >by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of >balance. It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we >went >to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in >us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a >white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, >but >they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to >put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at >best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think >our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long >as >it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it >works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory >name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? >Isn't >that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian >blood >at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at >http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Gemma and all: I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community still exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from other listmembers. What is the state of the Indian community today..... Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? Lifestyle? Beliefs? There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as to "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are "bloods". Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian enough". Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? Don't quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of that. I want the opinions of others on this list. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > Tommie > > Gemma West wrote: > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

lol ----- Original Message ----- From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > Halito Patsy > I rest my case > Walk in Beauty > Elkdreamer > > > >From: "Patsy Caleb" <studentarchaeologist@home.com> > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:12:40 -0700 > > > >can i disagree to that because the more i learn about my choctaw heritage > >the more spiritual i become > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:49 AM > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > >to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > >they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > >our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > >it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > >works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > >name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > >that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood > >at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > >quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > >

maybe you should just let them go if they love you they will be back someday ----- Original Message ----- From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > you know what dusty > god always kept brothers apart from each other the danites over here and the > davidites in another area > or the whites in one area and the indains in another area etc > i just think thats the way; its supposed to be > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:10 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting > them > > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with > what > > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all > into > > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge > > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things > go > > wrong. IMHO > > > > dusty > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > > knowledge > > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > > assimilation) > > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > > "beliefs", > > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a > better > > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > > trying > > > to > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > > good > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > > their > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It > is > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. > It > > is > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > > that > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > > Indians > > > and > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > > the > > > few > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes > us > > > to > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here > to > > > get? > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > > reverse > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > > This > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If > we > > > can > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > > After > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world > shaped > > > by > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > balance. > > > It > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we > went > > > to > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in > us > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a > white > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, > but > > > they > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to > put > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at > best > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > > slings > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > > our > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > > countless > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long > as > > > it's > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > > works > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > > name. > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? > Isn't > > > that > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian > blood > > at > > > > all > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the > list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

i had to choose an extracurricular activity i choose gang rehabilitation they remain a gang and friends but do things differently ----- Original Message ----- From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > Halito Barbara, Gemma And Dusty > Last night I was talking to my nephew about the problem that we are having > of our kids getting involved with gangs and such. I was looking back on my > life and the road that I took and tried to explain why It took that course. > In my experience I believe Indian people have a innerself that needs to be a > part of a tribe, this is our makeup our genetic being and our ancestors > survival trait. In this day and age a lot of us being removed from the > tribal closeness that were searching for took a lot of different roads. > Luckly some of us finally found the Red road and are coming back to the home > fires of our people. > When the rest finally find their way back we need to be there to help > them. > For seven generations > Walk in Beauty > Elkdreamer > > >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:01:33 -0500 > > > >Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no knowledge > >of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > >different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > >assimilation) > >And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > >"second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of "beliefs", > >and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > >people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > >way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > >B. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > >Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > >trying > >to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > >good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > >their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It > >is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > >that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > >Indians > >and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > >the > >few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > >to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > >get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > >reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > >This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > >can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > >After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > >by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > >balance. > >It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > >to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > >they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > >our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > >it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > >works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > >name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > >that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood > >at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > >quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > >Choctaw Home Page: > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

Halito Barbara, Gemma And Dusty Last night I was talking to my nephew about the problem that we are having of our kids getting involved with gangs and such. I was looking back on my life and the road that I took and tried to explain why It took that course. In my experience I believe Indian people have a innerself that needs to be a part of a tribe, this is our makeup our genetic being and our ancestors survival trait. In this day and age a lot of us being removed from the tribal closeness that were searching for took a lot of different roads. Luckly some of us finally found the Red road and are coming back to the home fires of our people. When the rest finally find their way back we need to be there to help them. For seven generations Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:01:33 -0500 > >Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no knowledge >of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is >different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick >assimilation) >And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not >"second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of "beliefs", >and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of >people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better >way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... >B. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM >Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life >trying >to > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of >good > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to >their > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It >is > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is >that > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around >Indians >and > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding >the >few > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us >to > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to >get? > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this >reverse > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. >This > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we >can > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. >After > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped >by > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of >balance. >It > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went >to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but >they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think >our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as >it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it >works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory >name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't >that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood >at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Choctaw Home Page: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

you know what dusty god always kept brothers apart from each other the danites over here and the davidites in another area or the whites in one area and the indains in another area etc i just think thats the way; its supposed to be ----- Original Message ----- From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting them > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with what > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all into > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things go > wrong. IMHO > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > knowledge > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > assimilation) > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > "beliefs", > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > trying > > to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It > is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > Indians > > and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > the > > few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > > to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > > get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > > can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > > by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > balance. > > It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > > to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > > they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > > it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > > that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood > at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com >

Halito Barbara Of course it is, but it is much prettier when it is brought to full bloom. Hence: Walk in Beauty. Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies-Elkdreamer >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:35:37 -0500 > >Elkdreamer...I agree that what is born in us needs to be nurtured, but even >if it is not nurtured, it is still in us because it is born in us... >B. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:14 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > Halito Barbara > > Our Spirituality is part of our being. just sometimes we need to be > > exposed to it for it to become full bloomsd. > > Walk in Beauty > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 12:49:41 -0500 > > > > > >"Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we >went >to > > >class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > >(which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a >white > > >society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > > >they > > >cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > >themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > >futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > >B. > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > >slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think >our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > >countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long >as > > >it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > >works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > >name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? >Isn't > > >that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian >blood >at > > >all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > >Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: >Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Halito Colin The thing about Job is every thing that happen to him was not a sacrifice it was a test of his god. He accepted it but he was not a wllling participent. Read Job 16-7 . Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: Colin Kelley <CKELLEY@swpa.gov> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:39:26 -0500 > >Did Job sacrifice a son? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Patsy Caleb [mailto:studentarchaeologist@home.com] >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:11 PM >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > >The original "Thou Shalt not kill" reads "Thou shalt not kill without a >reason" from the Lost Books of the Bible and forgotten Books of Eden" >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim Morrison, Jr. <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:16 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > What "animal" gives its life freely to death? > > The ONLY one that could is MAN (human). And even MAN does not do so > > hesitation. Could you honestly take a child of YOUR'S and kill the child >as > > an offering? For whatever the "rewards" that were promised. Could you? > > When did Job sacarafice is son? Before or after the 10 Commandments were > > writen? Why? Isn't one of the Commandments "Thous Shall Not Kill"? > > Jim > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > good question > > > I think that the statement, offering of his life could be >considered >to > > > be like Job in the Bible he really didn't do it willing but when he >did > > God > > > blessed him. Kind of like the warrior does giving thanks to the >animal's > > > spirit so he could feed his family. > > > Walk in Beauty > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:27:28 -0500 > > > > > > > >I have one question here just for clarification. It doesn't mean I'm > > > >challenging your statement, it just means I have a question, OK? If >the > > > >animal is giving an offering of it's life, why does it run away? > > > > > > > >dusty > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:19 AM > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Jim > > > > > #1 question > > > > > Another word for the supreme being > > > > > #2 the offering of its life > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:23:34 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > >Two quick questions: > > > > > >1) Who is "Grand Father"? > > > > > >2) The ANIMAL is giving an offering when IT is killed? > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > > > > >jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > >http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 10:36 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Dennis > > > > > > > I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. My intrest is in all > > > >things > > > > > > > Choctaw. and Spirituality is one of the aspects of it. To > > understand > > > > > >Indian > > > > > > > people you have to dig deep into their thought pattern. When >they > > > >killed > > > > > > > animals for food and clothing they said a prayer To >Grandfather > > for > > > >the > > > > > > > offering that the animal gave and gave respect to the animal >also. > > > >When > > > > > >they > > > > > > > did beadwork they put part of their spirit in it also. when a > > object > > > >was > > > > > > > discarded it was done with respect. Spirtuality was considered >in > > > >all > > > > > >things > > > > > > > done. That is one of the reasons that the Europeans that came >here > > > > > > > misunderstood our people and their ways. > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Dennis Boswell <dennisb@primenet.com> > > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:56:57 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Message for Elkdreamer and Dusty: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regarding who subscribes to CHAHTA-L and why, permit me to > > suggest > > > >that > > > > > > > >this list very likely has Choctaw and non-Choctaw >subscribers. > > > >Among > > > > > >both > > > > > > > >groups, there are those who have an exclusive interest in > > religion > > > >all > > > > > >the > > > > > > > >way to those who have an exclusive interest in some other >aspect > > of > > > > > >Choctaw > > > > > > > >life but no interest at all in religion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In my case, I find Choctaw religious beliefs and the recent > > > >discussion > > > > > > > >surrounding them educational and thought provoking. However, >my > > > > > >personal > > > > > > > >interest does not directly concern Choctaw religion. It is >very > > > >narrow > > > > > >and > > > > > > > >concerns central Mississippi, pre-removal Choctaw social and > > family > > > > > > > >customs, very narrowly defined examples of the Choctaw >language > > as > > > > > >about > > > > > > > >1800, relationships with early white settlers, trails and >paths > > > > > >followed > > > > > >by > > > > > > > >these Choctaw in relationship to today's central Mississippi > > county > > > > > > > >boundaries and the impact of removal on these same Choctaw >with > > > > > >specific > > > > > > > >emphasis on the Durant Choctaw clan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If I unsubscribe, which I will do one day (to return at a >later > > > >date), > > > > > >it > > > > > > > >will have nothing to do with whether I do or do not "learn >other > > > > > >religious > > > > > > > >views," "heat in the kitchen" or "sensitive subjects." It >will > > have > > > > > > > >everything to do with the fact that I subscribe to about > > > >thirty-five > > > > > >lists, > > > > > > > >receive mountains of email and have priorities on my time and >my > > > > > >interests > > > > > > > >that are quite different than anyone else on this list - a > > comment > > > >that > > > > > > > >about everyone of you can make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Recognize that one of the wonderful aspects of CHAHTA-L (in > > > >comparison > > > > > >with > > > > > > > >virtually all na hollo lists) is the diversity of thought, > > > >background, > > > > > > > >education and perspective it offers. Were I to make one > > suggestion > > > >to > > > > > >those > > > > > > > >of you who clearly dominate this list, please guard against > > > >becoming > > > > > >too > > > > > > > >clannish lest the very diversity that enriches this site >might >in > > > >time > > > > > > > >vanish leaving something less in its wake than you enjoy >today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 08:50 AM 03/31/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > > > >>Halito Dusty and All list members > > > > > > > >> I believe that we all have the right to believe in the way > > that > > > >we > > > > > >want > > > > > > > >>to. And in this aspect the right to discuss our and each >others > > > >views > > > > > >in > > > > > > > >>a intellegent and Adult way. Aparentlly the ones that left >will > > in > > > >no > > > > > >way > > > > > > > >>ever learn that there are other views than their own. Like I > > have > > > > > >always > > > > > > > >>been told if you can't stand the heat get out of the >kitchen. >I > > > >guess > > > > > > > >>that is what they did. Lets keep up the heat I'm having fun. > > > > > > > >> Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > >> Elkdreamer > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > >>>Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >>>To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >>>Subject: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > >>>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:38:58 -0600 > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>We lost another 5 listmembers this morning. Don't know for > > what > > > > > >reason. > > > > > > > >>>While I suspect sensitive subject matter may be the reason, > > this > > > >is > > > > > >only > > > > > > > >>>a > > > > > > > >>>supposition on my part. I have absolutely no objection to >the > > > >topic > > > > > > > >>>continuing if that's what you guys want. Among other > > > >peculiarities > > > > > >and > > > > > > > >>>character faults, I happen to wholeheartedly support the >First > > > > > >Amendment > > > > > > > >>>on > > > > > > > >>>this particular topic. What do you guys think?? > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post >it > > to > > > >the > > > > > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Dusty, did you mean to say "Indian" or should the question have read, "What is a Native American?" At 08:29 PM 04/05/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Gemma and all: > >I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community still >exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many >different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from other >listmembers. > >What is the state of the Indian community today..... >Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? >Lifestyle? Beliefs? > >There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as to >"who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are "bloods". >Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian enough". >Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? Don't >quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of that. > >I want the opinions of others on this list. > >dusty > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > Tommie > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life >trying to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of >good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to >their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It >is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is >that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around >Indians and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding >the few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us >to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to >get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this >reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. >This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we >can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. >After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped >by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of >balance. It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went >to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but >they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think >our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as >it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it >works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory >name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't >that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood >at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ Regards, Dennis K. Boswell 301 Crow Canyon Drive Folsom, CA 95630 Tel: (916) 987-3599 Fax: (916) 987-3555

Halito Patsy I rest my case Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: "Patsy Caleb" <studentarchaeologist@home.com> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:12:40 -0700 > >can i disagree to that because the more i learn about my choctaw heritage >the more spiritual i become >----- Original Message ----- >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:49 AM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went >to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but >they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think >our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as >it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it >works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory >name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't >that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood >at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

It was Abraham. He was ordered by God to sacrifice his son. In the end he did not have to follow through? thurman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > I was going to ask that same question. I don't remember Job making > sacrifice. He complained a lot (lol), but his family members died from > other causes, not from sacrifice. > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Colin Kelley <CKELLEY@swpa.gov> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:39 PM > Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > Did Job sacrifice a son? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Patsy Caleb [mailto:studentarchaeologist@home.com] > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:11 PM > > To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > The original "Thou Shalt not kill" reads "Thou shalt not kill without a > > reason" from the Lost Books of the Bible and forgotten Books of Eden" > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jim Morrison, Jr. <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > What "animal" gives its life freely to death? > > > The ONLY one that could is MAN (human). And even MAN does not do so > > > hesitation. Could you honestly take a child of YOUR'S and kill the child > > as > > > an offering? For whatever the "rewards" that were promised. Could you? > > > When did Job sacarafice is son? Before or after the 10 Commandments were > > > writen? Why? Isn't one of the Commandments "Thous Shall Not Kill"? > > > Jim > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:12 AM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > good question > > > > I think that the statement, offering of his life could be > considered > > to > > > > be like Job in the Bible he really didn't do it willing but when he > did > > > God > > > > blessed him. Kind of like the warrior does giving thanks to the > animal's > > > > spirit so he could feed his family. > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:27:28 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >I have one question here just for clarification. It doesn't mean I'm > > > > >challenging your statement, it just means I have a question, OK? If > > the > > > > >animal is giving an offering of it's life, why does it run away? > > > > > > > > > >dusty > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:19 AM > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Jim > > > > > > #1 question > > > > > > Another word for the supreme being > > > > > > #2 the offering of its life > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:23:34 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Two quick questions: > > > > > > >1) Who is "Grand Father"? > > > > > > >2) The ANIMAL is giving an offering when IT is killed? > > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > >jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > > >http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 10:36 PM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Dennis > > > > > > > > I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. My intrest is in all > > > > >things > > > > > > > > Choctaw. and Spirituality is one of the aspects of it. To > > > understand > > > > > > >Indian > > > > > > > > people you have to dig deep into their thought pattern. When > > they > > > > >killed > > > > > > > > animals for food and clothing they said a prayer To > Grandfather > > > for > > > > >the > > > > > > > > offering that the animal gave and gave respect to the animal > > also. > > > > >When > > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > did beadwork they put part of their spirit in it also. when a > > > object > > > > >was > > > > > > > > discarded it was done with respect. Spirtuality was considered > > in > > > > >all > > > > > > >things > > > > > > > > done. That is one of the reasons that the Europeans that came > > here > > > > > > > > misunderstood our people and their ways. > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Dennis Boswell <dennisb@primenet.com> > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:56:57 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Message for Elkdreamer and Dusty: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regarding who subscribes to CHAHTA-L and why, permit me to > > > suggest > > > > >that > > > > > > > > >this list very likely has Choctaw and non-Choctaw > subscribers. > > > > >Among > > > > > > >both > > > > > > > > >groups, there are those who have an exclusive interest in > > > religion > > > > >all > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >way to those who have an exclusive interest in some other > > aspect > > > of > > > > > > >Choctaw > > > > > > > > >life but no interest at all in religion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In my case, I find Choctaw religious beliefs and the recent > > > > >discussion > > > > > > > > >surrounding them educational and thought provoking. However, > my > > > > > > >personal > > > > > > > > >interest does not directly concern Choctaw religion. It is > very > > > > >narrow > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > >concerns central Mississippi, pre-removal Choctaw social and > > > family > > > > > > > > >customs, very narrowly defined examples of the Choctaw > language > > > as > > > > > > >about > > > > > > > > >1800, relationships with early white settlers, trails and > paths > > > > > > >followed > > > > > > >by > > > > > > > > >these Choctaw in relationship to today's central Mississippi > > > county > > > > > > > > >boundaries and the impact of removal on these same Choctaw > with > > > > > > >specific > > > > > > > > >emphasis on the Durant Choctaw clan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If I unsubscribe, which I will do one day (to return at a > later > > > > >date), > > > > > > >it > > > > > > > > >will have nothing to do with whether I do or do not "learn > > other > > > > > > >religious > > > > > > > > >views," "heat in the kitchen" or "sensitive subjects." It > will > > > have > > > > > > > > >everything to do with the fact that I subscribe to about > > > > >thirty-five > > > > > > >lists, > > > > > > > > >receive mountains of email and have priorities on my time and > > my > > > > > > >interests > > > > > > > > >that are quite different than anyone else on this list - a > > > comment > > > > >that > > > > > > > > >about everyone of you can make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Recognize that one of the wonderful aspects of CHAHTA-L (in > > > > >comparison > > > > > > >with > > > > > > > > >virtually all na hollo lists) is the diversity of thought, > > > > >background, > > > > > > > > >education and perspective it offers. Were I to make one > > > suggestion > > > > >to > > > > > > >those > > > > > > > > >of you who clearly dominate this list, please guard against > > > > >becoming > > > > > > >too > > > > > > > > >clannish lest the very diversity that enriches this site > might > > in > > > > >time > > > > > > > > >vanish leaving something less in its wake than you enjoy > today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 08:50 AM 03/31/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >>Halito Dusty and All list members > > > > > > > > >> I believe that we all have the right to believe in the way > > > that > > > > >we > > > > > > >want > > > > > > > > >>to. And in this aspect the right to discuss our and each > > others > > > > >views > > > > > > >in > > > > > > > > >>a intellegent and Adult way. Aparentlly the ones that left > > will > > > in > > > > >no > > > > > > >way > > > > > > > > >>ever learn that there are other views than their own. Like I > > > have > > > > > > >always > > > > > > > > >>been told if you can't stand the heat get out of the > kitchen. > > I > > > > >guess > > > > > > > > >>that is what they did. Lets keep up the heat I'm having fun. > > > > > > > > >> Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > >> Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>>From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > >>>Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > >>>To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > >>>Subject: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > >>>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:38:58 -0600 > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>We lost another 5 listmembers this morning. Don't know for > > > what > > > > > > >reason. > > > > > > > > >>>While I suspect sensitive subject matter may be the reason, > > > this > > > > >is > > > > > > >only > > > > > > > > >>>a > > > > > > > > >>>supposition on my part. I have absolutely no objection to > > the > > > > >topic > > > > > > > > >>>continuing if that's what you guys want. Among other > > > > >peculiarities > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > >>>character faults, I happen to wholeheartedly support the > > First > > > > > > >Amendment > > > > > > > > >>>on > > > > > > > > >>>this particular topic. What do you guys think?? > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post > it > > > to > > > > >the > > > > > > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

It is hard to get anyone of any race to listen to anything if it might make them have to change their mind, or worse, their lifestyle...Those are like little kids with their fingers in their ears screaming nah nah nah nah to keep from hearing what they know in their soul is right...only UNlike little kids, grownups who do that hurt other people, sometimes in a big way..and sometimes many, many people.. B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting them > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with what > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all into > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things go > wrong. IMHO > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > knowledge > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > assimilation) > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > "beliefs", > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > trying > > to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It > is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > Indians > > and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > the > > few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > > to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > > get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > > can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > > by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > balance. > > It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > > to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > > they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > > it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > > that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood > at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com >

Well put, Gemma. I agree. Tommie Gemma West wrote: > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > B. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > slings > > and arrows... > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > countless > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > TRUE racism? > > > > dusty > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > all > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures.......

The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting them to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with what is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all into technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things go wrong. IMHO dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no knowledge > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > assimilation) > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of "beliefs", > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > B. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying > to > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > good > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > their > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > that > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians > and > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the > few > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > to > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > get? > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > reverse > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > This > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > can > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > After > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > by > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. > It > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Choctaw Home Page: > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >

I was going to ask that same question. I don't remember Job making sacrifice. He complained a lot (lol), but his family members died from other causes, not from sacrifice. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Kelley <CKELLEY@swpa.gov> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:39 PM Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > Did Job sacrifice a son? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patsy Caleb [mailto:studentarchaeologist@home.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:11 PM > To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > The original "Thou Shalt not kill" reads "Thou shalt not kill without a > reason" from the Lost Books of the Bible and forgotten Books of Eden" > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Morrison, Jr. <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:16 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > What "animal" gives its life freely to death? > > The ONLY one that could is MAN (human). And even MAN does not do so > > hesitation. Could you honestly take a child of YOUR'S and kill the child > as > > an offering? For whatever the "rewards" that were promised. Could you? > > When did Job sacarafice is son? Before or after the 10 Commandments were > > writen? Why? Isn't one of the Commandments "Thous Shall Not Kill"? > > Jim > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > good question > > > I think that the statement, offering of his life could be considered > to > > > be like Job in the Bible he really didn't do it willing but when he did > > God > > > blessed him. Kind of like the warrior does giving thanks to the animal's > > > spirit so he could feed his family. > > > Walk in Beauty > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:27:28 -0500 > > > > > > > >I have one question here just for clarification. It doesn't mean I'm > > > >challenging your statement, it just means I have a question, OK? If > the > > > >animal is giving an offering of it's life, why does it run away? > > > > > > > >dusty > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:19 AM > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Jim > > > > > #1 question > > > > > Another word for the supreme being > > > > > #2 the offering of its life > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:23:34 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > >Two quick questions: > > > > > >1) Who is "Grand Father"? > > > > > >2) The ANIMAL is giving an offering when IT is killed? > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > > > > >jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > >http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 10:36 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Dennis > > > > > > > I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. My intrest is in all > > > >things > > > > > > > Choctaw. and Spirituality is one of the aspects of it. To > > understand > > > > > >Indian > > > > > > > people you have to dig deep into their thought pattern. When > they > > > >killed > > > > > > > animals for food and clothing they said a prayer To Grandfather > > for > > > >the > > > > > > > offering that the animal gave and gave respect to the animal > also. > > > >When > > > > > >they > > > > > > > did beadwork they put part of their spirit in it also. when a > > object > > > >was > > > > > > > discarded it was done with respect. Spirtuality was considered > in > > > >all > > > > > >things > > > > > > > done. That is one of the reasons that the Europeans that came > here > > > > > > > misunderstood our people and their ways. > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Dennis Boswell <dennisb@primenet.com> > > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:56:57 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Message for Elkdreamer and Dusty: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regarding who subscribes to CHAHTA-L and why, permit me to > > suggest > > > >that > > > > > > > >this list very likely has Choctaw and non-Choctaw subscribers. > > > >Among > > > > > >both > > > > > > > >groups, there are those who have an exclusive interest in > > religion > > > >all > > > > > >the > > > > > > > >way to those who have an exclusive interest in some other > aspect > > of > > > > > >Choctaw > > > > > > > >life but no interest at all in religion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In my case, I find Choctaw religious beliefs and the recent > > > >discussion > > > > > > > >surrounding them educational and thought provoking. However, my > > > > > >personal > > > > > > > >interest does not directly concern Choctaw religion. It is very > > > >narrow > > > > > >and > > > > > > > >concerns central Mississippi, pre-removal Choctaw social and > > family > > > > > > > >customs, very narrowly defined examples of the Choctaw language > > as > > > > > >about > > > > > > > >1800, relationships with early white settlers, trails and paths > > > > > >followed > > > > > >by > > > > > > > >these Choctaw in relationship to today's central Mississippi > > county > > > > > > > >boundaries and the impact of removal on these same Choctaw with > > > > > >specific > > > > > > > >emphasis on the Durant Choctaw clan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If I unsubscribe, which I will do one day (to return at a later > > > >date), > > > > > >it > > > > > > > >will have nothing to do with whether I do or do not "learn > other > > > > > >religious > > > > > > > >views," "heat in the kitchen" or "sensitive subjects." It will > > have > > > > > > > >everything to do with the fact that I subscribe to about > > > >thirty-five > > > > > >lists, > > > > > > > >receive mountains of email and have priorities on my time and > my > > > > > >interests > > > > > > > >that are quite different than anyone else on this list - a > > comment > > > >that > > > > > > > >about everyone of you can make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Recognize that one of the wonderful aspects of CHAHTA-L (in > > > >comparison > > > > > >with > > > > > > > >virtually all na hollo lists) is the diversity of thought, > > > >background, > > > > > > > >education and perspective it offers. Were I to make one > > suggestion > > > >to > > > > > >those > > > > > > > >of you who clearly dominate this list, please guard against > > > >becoming > > > > > >too > > > > > > > >clannish lest the very diversity that enriches this site might > in > > > >time > > > > > > > >vanish leaving something less in its wake than you enjoy today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 08:50 AM 03/31/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > > > >>Halito Dusty and All list members > > > > > > > >> I believe that we all have the right to believe in the way > > that > > > >we > > > > > >want > > > > > > > >>to. And in this aspect the right to discuss our and each > others > > > >views > > > > > >in > > > > > > > >>a intellegent and Adult way. Aparentlly the ones that left > will > > in > > > >no > > > > > >way > > > > > > > >>ever learn that there are other views than their own. Like I > > have > > > > > >always > > > > > > > >>been told if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. > I > > > >guess > > > > > > > >>that is what they did. Lets keep up the heat I'm having fun. > > > > > > > >> Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > >> Elkdreamer > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > >>>Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >>>To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >>>Subject: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > >>>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:38:58 -0600 > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>We lost another 5 listmembers this morning. Don't know for > > what > > > > > >reason. > > > > > > > >>>While I suspect sensitive subject matter may be the reason, > > this > > > >is > > > > > >only > > > > > > > >>>a > > > > > > > >>>supposition on my part. I have absolutely no objection to > the > > > >topic > > > > > > > >>>continuing if that's what you guys want. Among other > > > >peculiarities > > > > > >and > > > > > > > >>>character faults, I happen to wholeheartedly support the > First > > > > > >Amendment > > > > > > > >>>on > > > > > > > >>>this particular topic. What do you guys think?? > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it > > to > > > >the > > > > > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

GOOD WORDS, Gemma. Thanks. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Gemma West <gemmawest@usa.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life trying to > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of good > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to their > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It is > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is that > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around Indians and > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding the few > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us to > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to get? > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this reverse > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. This > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we can > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. After > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped by > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of balance. It > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went to > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but they > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > B. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > slings > > and arrows... > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > countless > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as it's > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it works > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory name. > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't that > > TRUE racism? > > > > dusty > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > all > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

I feel that way also...our spirituality "grows" with age and acquired knowledge. For me, the connection gets stronger the more I practice some of the old ways. dusty ----- Original Message ----- From: Patsy Caleb <studentarchaeologist@home.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:12 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > can i disagree to that because the more i learn about my choctaw heritage > the more spiritual i become > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:49 AM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >