Halito, Elkdreamer I guess I got lost about the point somewhere. If Job accepted it, was he not willing? I see what you meant anyway. By the way, when did Job live? Before or after the Law was given? Colin Kelley -----Original Message----- From: Elkdreamer Wilkins [mailto:elkdremr@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:06 PM To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION Halito Colin The thing about Job is every thing that happen to him was not a sacrifice it was a test of his god. He accepted it but he was not a wllling participent. Read Job 16-7 . Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: Colin Kelley <CKELLEY@swpa.gov> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:39:26 -0500 > >Did Job sacrifice a son? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Patsy Caleb [mailto:studentarchaeologist@home.com] >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:11 PM >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > >The original "Thou Shalt not kill" reads "Thou shalt not kill without a >reason" from the Lost Books of the Bible and forgotten Books of Eden" >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim Morrison, Jr. <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:16 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > What "animal" gives its life freely to death? > > The ONLY one that could is MAN (human). And even MAN does not do so > > hesitation. Could you honestly take a child of YOUR'S and kill the child >as > > an offering? For whatever the "rewards" that were promised. Could you? > > When did Job sacarafice is son? Before or after the 10 Commandments were > > writen? Why? Isn't one of the Commandments "Thous Shall Not Kill"? > > Jim > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > good question > > > I think that the statement, offering of his life could be >considered >to > > > be like Job in the Bible he really didn't do it willing but when he >did > > God > > > blessed him. Kind of like the warrior does giving thanks to the >animal's > > > spirit so he could feed his family. > > > Walk in Beauty > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:27:28 -0500 > > > > > > > >I have one question here just for clarification. It doesn't mean I'm > > > >challenging your statement, it just means I have a question, OK? If >the > > > >animal is giving an offering of it's life, why does it run away? > > > > > > > >dusty > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:19 AM > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Jim > > > > > #1 question > > > > > Another word for the supreme being > > > > > #2 the offering of its life > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:23:34 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > >Two quick questions: > > > > > >1) Who is "Grand Father"? > > > > > >2) The ANIMAL is giving an offering when IT is killed? > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > > > > >jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > >http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 10:36 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Dennis > > > > > > > I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. My intrest is in all > > > >things > > > > > > > Choctaw. and Spirituality is one of the aspects of it. To > > understand > > > > > >Indian > > > > > > > people you have to dig deep into their thought pattern. When >they > > > >killed > > > > > > > animals for food and clothing they said a prayer To >Grandfather > > for > > > >the > > > > > > > offering that the animal gave and gave respect to the animal >also. > > > >When > > > > > >they > > > > > > > did beadwork they put part of their spirit in it also. when a > > object > > > >was > > > > > > > discarded it was done with respect. Spirtuality was considered >in > > > >all > > > > > >things > > > > > > > done. That is one of the reasons that the Europeans that came >here > > > > > > > misunderstood our people and their ways. > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Dennis Boswell <dennisb@primenet.com> > > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:56:57 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Message for Elkdreamer and Dusty: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regarding who subscribes to CHAHTA-L and why, permit me to > > suggest > > > >that > > > > > > > >this list very likely has Choctaw and non-Choctaw >subscribers. > > > >Among > > > > > >both > > > > > > > >groups, there are those who have an exclusive interest in > > religion > > > >all > > > > > >the > > > > > > > >way to those who have an exclusive interest in some other >aspect > > of > > > > > >Choctaw > > > > > > > >life but no interest at all in religion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In my case, I find Choctaw religious beliefs and the recent > > > >discussion > > > > > > > >surrounding them educational and thought provoking. However, >my > > > > > >personal > > > > > > > >interest does not directly concern Choctaw religion. It is >very > > > >narrow > > > > > >and > > > > > > > >concerns central Mississippi, pre-removal Choctaw social and > > family > > > > > > > >customs, very narrowly defined examples of the Choctaw >language > > as > > > > > >about > > > > > > > >1800, relationships with early white settlers, trails and >paths > > > > > >followed > > > > > >by > > > > > > > >these Choctaw in relationship to today's central Mississippi > > county > > > > > > > >boundaries and the impact of removal on these same Choctaw >with > > > > > >specific > > > > > > > >emphasis on the Durant Choctaw clan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If I unsubscribe, which I will do one day (to return at a >later > > > >date), > > > > > >it > > > > > > > >will have nothing to do with whether I do or do not "learn >other > > > > > >religious > > > > > > > >views," "heat in the kitchen" or "sensitive subjects." It >will > > have > > > > > > > >everything to do with the fact that I subscribe to about > > > >thirty-five > > > > > >lists, > > > > > > > >receive mountains of email and have priorities on my time and >my > > > > > >interests > > > > > > > >that are quite different than anyone else on this list - a > > comment > > > >that > > > > > > > >about everyone of you can make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Recognize that one of the wonderful aspects of CHAHTA-L (in > > > >comparison > > > > > >with > > > > > > > >virtually all na hollo lists) is the diversity of thought, > > > >background, > > > > > > > >education and perspective it offers. Were I to make one > > suggestion > > > >to > > > > > >those > > > > > > > >of you who clearly dominate this list, please guard against > > > >becoming > > > > > >too > > > > > > > >clannish lest the very diversity that enriches this site >might >in > > > >time > > > > > > > >vanish leaving something less in its wake than you enjoy >today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 08:50 AM 03/31/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > > > >>Halito Dusty and All list members > > > > > > > >> I believe that we all have the right to believe in the way > > that > > > >we > > > > > >want > > > > > > > >>to. And in this aspect the right to discuss our and each >others > > > >views > > > > > >in > > > > > > > >>a intellegent and Adult way. Aparentlly the ones that left >will > > in > > > >no > > > > > >way > > > > > > > >>ever learn that there are other views than their own. Like I > > have > > > > > >always > > > > > > > >>been told if you can't stand the heat get out of the >kitchen. >I > > > >guess > > > > > > > >>that is what they did. Lets keep up the heat I'm having fun. > > > > > > > >> Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > >> Elkdreamer > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > >>>Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >>>To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > >>>Subject: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > >>>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:38:58 -0600 > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>We lost another 5 listmembers this morning. Don't know for > > what > > > > > >reason. > > > > > > > >>>While I suspect sensitive subject matter may be the reason, > > this > > > >is > > > > > >only > > > > > > > >>>a > > > > > > > >>>supposition on my part. I have absolutely no objection to >the > > > >topic > > > > > > > >>>continuing if that's what you guys want. Among other > > > >peculiarities > > > > > >and > > > > > > > >>>character faults, I happen to wholeheartedly support the >First > > > > > >Amendment > > > > > > > >>>on > > > > > > > >>>this particular topic. What do you guys think?? > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post >it > > to > > > >the > > > > > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures.......

Actually the brothers did all live together; that is until they decided to get rid of Joseph and they sold him into slavery after they backed out of killing him. And of course there wasn't any Brother David. He came along about a thousand years later. -----Original Message----- From: Patsy Caleb [mailto:studentarchaeologist@home.com] Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:21 PM To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies you know what dusty god always kept brothers apart from each other the danites over here and the davidites in another area or the whites in one area and the indains in another area etc i just think thats the way; its supposed to be ----- Original Message ----- From: Dusty <dustyc@microgear.net> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > The problem seems to be, with people who have no Indian blood, getting them > to LISTEN. The native people of this country are far more in tune with what > is going on re this continent than the invaders, but those who are all into > technology and the worship of man's knowledge rather than Gods knowledge > seem to screw everything up and then wonder what happened to make things go > wrong. IMHO > > dusty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no > knowledge > > of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is > > different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick > > assimilation) > > And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not > > "second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of > "beliefs", > > and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of > > people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better > > way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM > > Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > trying > > to > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of > > good > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to > > their > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It is > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It > is > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is > > that > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > Indians > > and > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding > the > > few > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes us > > to > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to > > get? > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this > > reverse > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. > > This > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If we > > can > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > After > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world shaped > > by > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > balance. > > It > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went > > to > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but > > they > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > > slings > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > our > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > countless > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as > > it's > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it > > works > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory > > name. > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't > > that > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood > at > > > all > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > quotes > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Choctaw Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures.......

Halito, Kim. When I last visited Philadelphia, MS, (October, 1998) their checklist for tribal membership included: "Before you apply be sure you are one-half (1/2) or more Choctaw blood and are a descendant of an enrolled member of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians listed in the 1940 roll. (See Articles III, Section 1 and 2 of the Tribal Constitution). Make sure: 1. The Application for Enrollment is completed 2. The Ancestry Chart is completed 3. If applicant is under 18 years old both parents must sign. 4. Original long form birth certificate is included 5. A copy of the Social Security card is included. 6. An original of the Parternity (sp) Affidavit is included (if needed) 7. Statement from official of the other Indian tribe (if applicable) stating the inividual (sp) is not enrolled with them is included. Please mail to the following address: Mrs. Angela Briscoe Tribal Enrollment Office Post Office Box 6365 Philadelphia, Mississippi 39350" This information appeared as shown above in a copy of "A Choctaw Handybook" that I purchased from the Choctaw Museum Gift Shoppe located in the Choctaw Museum of the Southern Indian. At the time (October, 1998), they had available a Gift Shoppe list of items for sale along with prices. The Gift Shoppe's Telephone number was (601) 650-1685 and their Web site was http://allcatalogs.com/choctaw. However, I just tried that web site and it did not respond. At 11:32 PM 04/05/2001 -0500, you wrote: >The Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma accepts all who can trace their lineage to an >original enrollee ( and who have a CDIB) of the Choctaw roll regardless of >blood quantum. >I personally prefer American Indian as any one born in the US is NA. Don't >profess to know what the Choctaw nation of OK thinks about the term though. >Yes the Choctaw have had dealings and inter marriages with Europeans for >many years. Many great chiefs were of mixed blood. >I do believe that MS Choctaw have a more stringent requirement for tribal >membership but I am not sure. >Perhaps there is some one on the list who can supply you a better answer. >Kim >----- Original Message ----- >From: <Chata1507@aol.com> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:46 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > I have been told that the Choctaw Nation prefers the term Indian over >native > > American since anyone born in America is also a native American. This >makes > > sense to me. However, each nation has their own opinion. In addition I > > think it's what ever you are comfortable with. > > > > On a previous question. In Minnesota the tribes historically accepted > > persons into tribe who basically moved in with them, became community > > supporters and identified with the tribe and its goals. This included > > captives who were adopted. Friends on various reservations in Minnesota >also > > chuckle at the concept of full blood because over the years of euro >contact > > who can really know blood genetics. For example Crazy Horse was light >haired > > and blue eyed according to a Lakota friend. The Mandans have many with >light > > eyes and hair. > > > > Look at the pictures of a lot of the old Choctaw and you see euro >influence. > > The Choctaw have had contact since they ran De Soto out in the early >1500s. > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... Regards, Dennis K. Boswell 301 Crow Canyon Drive Folsom, CA 95630 Tel: (916) 987-3599 Fax: (916) 987-3555

Halito Colin I assume after the Law of Moses because there is mention of men of different citys or sect asking him question about why he was excepting the punishment's from his God. It has been some years since I have read the bible I had to look that up in my grandsons to be sure that I had the right info. Because I was pretty sure but not positive if my memory of it was correct. Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: Colin Kelley <CKELLEY@swpa.gov> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION >Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 08:07:41 -0500 > >Halito, Elkdreamer >I guess I got lost about the point somewhere. If Job accepted it, was he >not willing? I see what you meant anyway. By the way, when did Job live? >Before or after the Law was given? > Colin Kelley > >-----Original Message----- >From: Elkdreamer Wilkins [mailto:elkdremr@hotmail.com] >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:06 PM >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > >Halito Colin >The thing about Job is every thing that happen to him was not a sacrifice >it > >was a test of his god. He accepted it but he was not a wllling participent. >Read Job 16-7 . > Walk in Beauty > Elkdreamer > > > >From: Colin Kelley <CKELLEY@swpa.gov> > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: RE: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:39:26 -0500 > > > >Did Job sacrifice a son? > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Patsy Caleb [mailto:studentarchaeologist@home.com] > >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:11 PM > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > >The original "Thou Shalt not kill" reads "Thou shalt not kill without a > >reason" from the Lost Books of the Bible and forgotten Books of Eden" > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Jim Morrison, Jr. <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:16 PM > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > What "animal" gives its life freely to death? > > > The ONLY one that could is MAN (human). And even MAN does not do so > > > hesitation. Could you honestly take a child of YOUR'S and kill the >child > >as > > > an offering? For whatever the "rewards" that were promised. Could you? > > > When did Job sacarafice is son? Before or after the 10 Commandments >were > > > writen? Why? Isn't one of the Commandments "Thous Shall Not Kill"? > > > Jim > > > > > > jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:12 AM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > good question > > > > I think that the statement, offering of his life could be > >considered > >to > > > > be like Job in the Bible he really didn't do it willing but when he > >did > > > God > > > > blessed him. Kind of like the warrior does giving thanks to the > >animal's > > > > spirit so he could feed his family. > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:27:28 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >I have one question here just for clarification. It doesn't mean >I'm > > > > >challenging your statement, it just means I have a question, OK? >If > >the > > > > >animal is giving an offering of it's life, why does it run away? > > > > > > > > > >dusty > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: Elkdreamer Wilkins <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:19 AM > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Jim > > > > > > #1 question > > > > > > Another word for the supreme being > > > > > > #2 the offering of its life > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Jim Morrison, Jr." <jmorsn@coastalnet.com> > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:23:34 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Two quick questions: > > > > > > >1) Who is "Grand Father"? > > > > > > >2) The ANIMAL is giving an offering when IT is killed? > > > > > > >Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > >jmorsn@coastalnet.com > > > > > > >http://www2.coastalnet.com/~g7d3j4nb/ > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 10:36 PM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Dennis > > > > > > > > I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. My intrest is in >all > > > > >things > > > > > > > > Choctaw. and Spirituality is one of the aspects of it. To > > > understand > > > > > > >Indian > > > > > > > > people you have to dig deep into their thought pattern. When > >they > > > > >killed > > > > > > > > animals for food and clothing they said a prayer To > >Grandfather > > > for > > > > >the > > > > > > > > offering that the animal gave and gave respect to the animal > >also. > > > > >When > > > > > > >they > > > > > > > > did beadwork they put part of their spirit in it also. when >a > > > object > > > > >was > > > > > > > > discarded it was done with respect. Spirtuality was >considered > >in > > > > >all > > > > > > >things > > > > > > > > done. That is one of the reasons that the Europeans that >came > >here > > > > > > > > misunderstood our people and their ways. > > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Dennis Boswell <dennisb@primenet.com> > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:56:57 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Message for Elkdreamer and Dusty: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regarding who subscribes to CHAHTA-L and why, permit me to > > > suggest > > > > >that > > > > > > > > >this list very likely has Choctaw and non-Choctaw > >subscribers. > > > > >Among > > > > > > >both > > > > > > > > >groups, there are those who have an exclusive interest in > > > religion > > > > >all > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >way to those who have an exclusive interest in some other > >aspect > > > of > > > > > > >Choctaw > > > > > > > > >life but no interest at all in religion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In my case, I find Choctaw religious beliefs and the recent > > > > >discussion > > > > > > > > >surrounding them educational and thought provoking. >However, > >my > > > > > > >personal > > > > > > > > >interest does not directly concern Choctaw religion. It is > >very > > > > >narrow > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > >concerns central Mississippi, pre-removal Choctaw social >and > > > family > > > > > > > > >customs, very narrowly defined examples of the Choctaw > >language > > > as > > > > > > >about > > > > > > > > >1800, relationships with early white settlers, trails and > >paths > > > > > > >followed > > > > > > >by > > > > > > > > >these Choctaw in relationship to today's central >Mississippi > > > county > > > > > > > > >boundaries and the impact of removal on these same Choctaw > >with > > > > > > >specific > > > > > > > > >emphasis on the Durant Choctaw clan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If I unsubscribe, which I will do one day (to return at a > >later > > > > >date), > > > > > > >it > > > > > > > > >will have nothing to do with whether I do or do not "learn > >other > > > > > > >religious > > > > > > > > >views," "heat in the kitchen" or "sensitive subjects." It > >will > > > have > > > > > > > > >everything to do with the fact that I subscribe to about > > > > >thirty-five > > > > > > >lists, > > > > > > > > >receive mountains of email and have priorities on my time >and > >my > > > > > > >interests > > > > > > > > >that are quite different than anyone else on this list - a > > > comment > > > > >that > > > > > > > > >about everyone of you can make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Recognize that one of the wonderful aspects of CHAHTA-L (in > > > > >comparison > > > > > > >with > > > > > > > > >virtually all na hollo lists) is the diversity of thought, > > > > >background, > > > > > > > > >education and perspective it offers. Were I to make one > > > suggestion > > > > >to > > > > > > >those > > > > > > > > >of you who clearly dominate this list, please guard against > > > > >becoming > > > > > > >too > > > > > > > > >clannish lest the very diversity that enriches this site > >might > >in > > > > >time > > > > > > > > >vanish leaving something less in its wake than you enjoy > >today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 08:50 AM 03/31/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >>Halito Dusty and All list members > > > > > > > > >> I believe that we all have the right to believe in the >way > > > that > > > > >we > > > > > > >want > > > > > > > > >>to. And in this aspect the right to discuss our and each > >others > > > > >views > > > > > > >in > > > > > > > > >>a intellegent and Adult way. Aparentlly the ones that left > >will > > > in > > > > >no > > > > > > >way > > > > > > > > >>ever learn that there are other views than their own. Like >I > > > have > > > > > > >always > > > > > > > > >>been told if you can't stand the heat get out of the > >kitchen. > >I > > > > >guess > > > > > > > > >>that is what they did. Lets keep up the heat I'm having >fun. > > > > > > > > >> Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > > >> Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>>From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > > > > > >>>Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > >>>To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > >>>Subject: [CHAHTA] TOPIC OF RELIGION > > > > > > > > >>>Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:38:58 -0600 > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>We lost another 5 listmembers this morning. Don't know >for > > > what > > > > > > >reason. > > > > > > > > >>>While I suspect sensitive subject matter may be the >reason, > > > this > > > > >is > > > > > > >only > > > > > > > > >>>a > > > > > > > > >>>supposition on my part. I have absolutely no objection >to > >the > > > > >topic > > > > > > > > >>>continuing if that's what you guys want. Among other > > > > >peculiarities > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > >>>character faults, I happen to wholeheartedly support the > >First > > > > > > >Amendment > > > > > > > > >>>on > > > > > > > > >>>this particular topic. What do you guys think?? > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > > > Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't >post > >it > > > to > > > > >the > > > > > > >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at > > > > > > >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > > >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > >Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > >To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: >http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Good one Dusty Walk in Beauty Elkdreamer >From: rusty-old-car@webtv.net >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [CHAHTA] Spirituality and religion >Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:31:32 -0500 (CDT) > >We are all born with this deep seeded spirituality in our hearts but in >a society such as ours it seems to take a lot introspect to bring it to >a realization. Contrary to the belief of some this knowledge was not >just given to the indian peoples though time may not have left us not as >far removed as others it is universal knowledge. Every woman, every man, >are our sisters and brothers although we may not always agree (and we >may not want to claim them) they are ours all the same. Every plant, >every animal, they are our relatives (consider them distant cousins if >one would prefer) but we are related. >Now, it seems that in Christianity "God created everything" Then would >it not also be true in christianity that we are all related? I am told >that in the bible it also says man is "master" of all that is created. >True that would put us right at the top but was that meant to say "man >should do as he pleases" the word seems to imply a great responsibility >to me. To be a true master of all would one not have to also be a >steward to all. To take without asking and without giving thanks for >what is received would seem to me to be thievery. >The question was asked does an animal running away from a hunter give up >its life to the hunter and require to be thanked? Let me answer the >question in this way the creator saw that we hunt the deer, we shoot the >deer, (We evite friends over for beer and barbeque, whatever) The >creator could have saw to it that bullets and arrows bounced of the >dears and they walked over and kicked our a__ and ate us when the family >gathered for dinner. However, this is not the case and the deer runs. >The creator did not make things so whoever needed a snack could come >take a bite out of the deer either. The deer enjoys its life but it as >well as any animal knows that where it is in creation and so the bargain >of the hunt was struck. The deer says "if you are cleaver enough my life >falls into your hands to do with as you please if you fail to be so >cleaver then my life is my on and perhaps you should dig for roots or >something a little more your speed my friend. >A person gives thanks to an animal when it gives its life because it >would be plain rude if one did not. And on such a great sacrifice the >animal makes the absolute least one could do is be respectful. >Personally, I think spirituality is best discussed person to person. Why >I am putting my thoughts in now I could only guess as a lack of >judgement. > >rusty > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Well put Linda >From: "Linda Branum" <mamalin@1s.net> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Were all Brothers and Sisters >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:11:10 -0500 > >Hi Dusty and all, > I want to say that my brother looks full blood Indian but we are just >1/32. I don't look a bit like and Indian but I have the same amt of blood >as >he does. > I feel the amt of Indian doesn't matter. We are all brothers and sisters >just some of us have proof and others don't. > I think we should all remember TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL. All of >us need to unite together and stop worring about how much blood we have but >our people were all at one time full blood so who cares if you are full or >just a little. You are still my sister and brother and all are NA. >Regards, Linda Kirby Branum > > (Guynes and Sain are my Indian heritage surnames) Guynes being Choctaw >and >documented and Sain Cherokee undocumented. But I feel ancestors calling >from >both!! >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:29 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > Gemma and all: > > > > I am intrigued and challenged by your question, "Does the community >still > > exist." I have pondered this question for many years and under many > > different circumstances., and would like to get some feedback from other > > listmembers. > > > > What is the state of the Indian community today..... > > Specifically, WHAT IS AN INDIAN? Is it a matter of blood quantum? > > Lifestyle? Beliefs? > > > > There can be no argument that there is definite predjudice among NA as >to > > "who is Indian" and who is not. There are "skins" and there are >"bloods". > > Why the separation? What does it take to be considered "Indian enough". > > Are some NAs practicing a racism they would decry in other races.? >Don't > > quote me the government's definition of Indian, I'm well aware of that. > > > > I want the opinions of others on this list. > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David and Tommie Marsters <haili65@proaxis.com> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:30 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > > > > > > > Well put, Gemma. I agree. > > > Tommie > > > > > > Gemma West wrote: > > > > > > > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life > > trying to > > > > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit >in. > > > > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions >of > > good > > > > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look >to > > their > > > > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. >It >is > > > > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. >It > > is > > > > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing >is > > that > > > > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around > > Indians and > > > > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is >finding > > the few > > > > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. > > > > > > > > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it >causes >us > > to > > > > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here >to > > get? > > > > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about >this > > reverse > > > > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our >own > > > > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live >with. > > This > > > > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. >If >we > > can > > > > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. > > After > > > > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world >shaped > > by > > > > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of > > balance. It > > > > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. > > > > > > > > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we >went > > to > > > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in >us > > > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a >white > > > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, >but > > they > > > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to >put > > > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at >best > > > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > > > B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to >everyone's > > > > slings > > > > > and arrows... > > > > > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think > > our > > > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > > > countless > > > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long >as > > it's > > > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because >it > > works > > > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a >derogatory > > name. > > > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? >Isn't > > that > > > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian >blood > > at > > > > all > > > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the > > quotes > > > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at > > > > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > Get free email and a permanent address at >http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Markie and Fay's CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST Home Page: > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >Got a GRIPE?? Got a PROBLEM?? Just wanna' WHINE? Don't post it to the >list...write me, dusty (list administrator) at >CHAHTA-L-admin@cultures.rootsweb.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Halito to all, Maybe I am wrong and I am sure I will be corrected if so LOL, but it seems to me that in a round about way the prophecy of the Indian people once again getting back all that belonged to them may, in a way, involve not the actual possession of material possessions, but getting back to the old ways and beliefs? And if this may be true, then would it not matter that the Nations be full bloods or mixed bloods? Again I say I may be wrong and fully prepared to be so but, I only know that even though I may be lighter than most full bloods, my blood, heart and soul is the same as all my relations from generations back. Sonja >From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 19:36:28 -0700 > >Halito Barbara, Gemma And Dusty > Last night I was talking to my nephew about the problem that we are >having >of our kids getting involved with gangs and such. I was looking back on my >life and the road that I took and tried to explain why It took that course. >In my experience I believe Indian people have a innerself that needs to be >a >part of a tribe, this is our makeup our genetic being and our ancestors >survival trait. In this day and age a lot of us being removed from the >tribal closeness that were searching for took a lot of different roads. >Luckly some of us finally found the Red road and are coming back to the >home >fires of our people. > When the rest finally find their way back we need to be there to help >them. > For seven generations > Walk in Beauty > Elkdreamer > >>From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> >>Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >>To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies >>Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:01:33 -0500 >> >>Those who have grown up in Indian communities but seem to have no >>knowledge >>of their own spirituality are still aware of something inside that is >>different, even if they don't know what it is.(Because of the thick >>assimilation) >>And it is my hope that more of our people will recognise that we are not >>"second class" and that our spirituality is not just a matter of >>"beliefs", >>and that it is not "inferior" to the spirituality any other race of >>people...It is also my hope that those non-Indians who can learn a better >>way of living in balance from Indians, or whoever, will do so... >>B. >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Gemma West" <gemmawest@usa.net> >>To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:35 PM >>Subject: [CHAHTA] twinkies >> >> >> > What has happened for many people is that they wander through life >>trying >>to >> > figure out what is wrong...trying to figure out why they don't fit in. >> > Attempts are made to mold themselves into someone else's defintions of >>good >> > and bad. These attempts fail. Finally that person decides to look to >>their >> > ancestors. They find themselves. They finally feel comfortable. It >>is >> > obvious to all that ancestors shape our biological characteristics. It >>is >> > obvious to me that ancestors shape our spirituality. The sad thing is >>that >> > sometimes the assimilation is so thick that you can grow up around >>Indians >>and >> > still not know your own spirituality. The beautiful thing is finding >>the >>few >> > who have refused assimilation and are willing to share knowledge. >> > >> > When non-Indian people ask to be allowed into the community it causes >>us >>to >> > question ourselves. Does community still exist? What are they here to >>get? >> > Are we really different from them? I think the great thing about this >>reverse >> > acculturation is that it is spurring some of us to re-embrace our own >> > ancestors. It is removing the shame that our elders had to live with. >>This >> > shame had no place and that is becoming clear to new generations. If >>we >>can >> > influence people to live a balanced life then that is a great thing. >>After >> > all, our children and their children will have to live in a world >>shaped >>by >> > the parents. We can not afford to be selfish with principles of >>balance. >>It >> > seems that they need these principles much more than we do. >> > >> > >> > >> > Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> wrote: >> > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we >>went >>to >> > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us >> > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a >>white >> > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but >>they >> > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put >> > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best >> > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... >> > B. >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> >> > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM >> > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies >> > >> > >> > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's >> > slings >> > > and arrows... >> > > >> > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think >>our >> > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had >> > countless >> > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as >>it's >> > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it >>works >> > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory >>name. >> > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. >> > > >> > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't >>that >> > > TRUE racism? >> > > >> > > dusty >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> >> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM >> > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies >> > > >> > > >> > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla >> > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> >> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM >> > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Halito Fay >> > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood >>at >> > all >> > > > > Walk in Beauty >> > > > > Elkdreamer >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >> > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: >> > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >> > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >>quotes >> > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >> > > Choctaw Home Page: >> > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >> > > >> > >> > >> > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >> > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at >> > http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. >> > >> > >> > ____________________________________________________________________ >> > Get free email and a permanent address at >>http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 >> > >> > >> > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >> > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: >> > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >> > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes >> > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >> > >> >> >>==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >>Choctaw Home Page: >>http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: >Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Halito to all!!, I am new to the list but had to respond. Dusty hit it right on the head. As a young girl being raised in Texas, I had always felt that I did not belong (neither in TX or in this day and time LOL)....My Grandfather passed when I was a teenager and as a young girl he used to tell me stories and I wish now that I had listened closer. I now live in SD with my Lakota husband and for the first time in my life I feel like I am where I belong *S* Sonja >From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> >Reply-To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >To: CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:58:38 -0500 > >Good point..could be that's why some of us who were raised in white society >always felt so "different". Have you ever had the feeling that the world >was SO insane that you must have been dropped down on the wrong planet? > >It would have helped me as a small child, I think to have been closer to NA >elders in the family, but those that were nearby were all dead by the time >I >was a teenager. We briefly lived with my grandmother when my dad was in >WWII, but she moved back to Oklahoma when I was about 7-8 years old, and >after that I didn't see her much. All of her sisters had gone their own >ways, only one married an NA - Osage and moved to Seminole, Okla. The rest >scattered with everyone trying to find jobs and make a living after the >war. > > That's one resentment I've always had, not being able to learn our ways >from the elders, just being told stories of the ways they used to practice. >I envy those who were raised around family and got to experience the things >we've been discussing (sweats, etc) for themselves. > >dusty >----- Original Message ----- >From: Barbara Ellison <greybird7@pisp.net> >To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:49 PM >Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > "Our spirituality" is not "just an idea" and it is not something we went >to > > class and learned somewhere, or got off the internet...it is born in us > > (which is obvious to those Indians who were raised surrounded by a white > > society) and a non-Indian may be able to learn from us some things, but >they > > cannot "acquire" what they are not born with, and their attempts to put > > themselves on an "equal footing", with Indians, so to speak, is at best > > futile...and at worst, an attempt at cultural theft... > > B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dusty" <dustyc@microgear.net> > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > I shall play devil's advocate again and expose my rear to everyone's > > slings > > > and arrows... > > > > > > What about those people who do not "want to be NA", but just think >our > > > spirituality, philosophy and way of life is a good idea. I've had > > countless > > > elders tell me, "I don't care what kind of blood you have, as long as >it's > > > human". Just because an Anglo wants to practice our ways because it >works > > > for them, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled by a derogatory >name. > > > Are there really that many among us that are so arrogant to do so. > > > > > > Where did we ever get the idea that that we were so exclusive? Isn't >that > > > TRUE racism? > > > > > > dusty > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John & Arla Williams <jaws@crosstel.net> > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > Elkdreamer, Where did the term come from? Arla > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Elkdreamer Wilkins" <elkdremr@hotmail.com> > > > > To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Elkdreamer, twinkies > > > > > > > > > > > > > Halito Fay > > > > > Mostly people that want to be N/A and really have no Indian blood >at > > all > > > > > Walk in Beauty > > > > > Elkdreamer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L genealogy mail list: > > > > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > > > > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the >quotes > > > > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > > Choctaw Home Page: > > > http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at >http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. > > > > >==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== >To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: >Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com >Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes >Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

We are all born with this deep seeded spirituality in our hearts but in a society such as ours it seems to take a lot introspect to bring it to a realization. Contrary to the belief of some this knowledge was not just given to the indian peoples though time may not have left us not as far removed as others it is universal knowledge. Every woman, every man, are our sisters and brothers although we may not always agree (and we may not want to claim them) they are ours all the same. Every plant, every animal, they are our relatives (consider them distant cousins if one would prefer) but we are related. Now, it seems that in Christianity "God created everything" Then would it not also be true in christianity that we are all related? I am told that in the bible it also says man is "master" of all that is created. True that would put us right at the top but was that meant to say "man should do as he pleases" the word seems to imply a great responsibility to me. To be a true master of all would one not have to also be a steward to all. To take without asking and without giving thanks for what is received would seem to me to be thievery. The question was asked does an animal running away from a hunter give up its life to the hunter and require to be thanked? Let me answer the question in this way the creator saw that we hunt the deer, we shoot the deer, (We evite friends over for beer and barbeque, whatever) The creator could have saw to it that bullets and arrows bounced of the dears and they walked over and kicked our a__ and ate us when the family gathered for dinner. However, this is not the case and the deer runs. The creator did not make things so whoever needed a snack could come take a bite out of the deer either. The deer enjoys its life but it as well as any animal knows that where it is in creation and so the bargain of the hunt was struck. The deer says "if you are cleaver enough my life falls into your hands to do with as you please if you fail to be so cleaver then my life is my on and perhaps you should dig for roots or something a little more your speed my friend. A person gives thanks to an animal when it gives its life because it would be plain rude if one did not. And on such a great sacrifice the animal makes the absolute least one could do is be respectful. Personally, I think spirituality is best discussed person to person. Why I am putting my thoughts in now I could only guess as a lack of judgement. rusty

These guys are up-town. Lori Morgan is coming on the 7th and Wynonna is coming on the 21st. Fay Don't ever give up.!!!! http://www.accessgenealogy.com/gedcoms/ratcliff/ List owner HOLDEN-L, SCHIFANO-L

I noticed that when I reply to a post from Tsana that it was showing that it was going directly to her and not to the Chahta-L, but any of the other posts that I reply to go to the rootsweb.com address. I noticed this and so I have been replying to Tsana's posts by hitting reply on one of the other posts and then changing the subject line. Do you know why this is happening or what I might be doing wrong? Yokoke, Shelley

Well, they finally got their web page up on the Choctaw out of Philadelphia, MS. Unfortunately, they don't have their museum items for sale. Maybe later I hope they will have the museum articles up. The addy is: www.choctaw.org Fay Don't ever give up.!!!! http://www.accessgenealogy.com/gedcoms/ratcliff/ List owner HOLDEN-L, SCHIFANO-L

Tsana, Just remember to spend the money (one coin) you get for the wart as soon as possible. Also, an interesting note: My Grandmother who has been buying the warts of her kids, grandkids and anyone else who wanted to sell one, has NO warts. Shelley

One thing about me is, you can't insult me. For someone to insult me, I would have to assume they were trying to do something mean to me. I don't have enough time or brain power to try to figure out what someone else is thinking. Humor has gotten me this far and I see no reason to give it up now. LOL Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: Choctaw <choctaw@bscn.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > Yokoke Fay, > You made me feel better about sending that. I guess I almost expected to > start getting messages about what a "twinkie" I am :) > Yokoke Chito > Shelley > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST: > Send msg. to CHAHTA-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "unsubscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

Yokoke Fay, You made me feel better about sending that. I guess I almost expected to start getting messages about what a "twinkie" I am :) Yokoke Chito Shelley

I'm not picking on anyone, it's just that in 39 years, that is the ultimate no-no. I really should print it out and frame it and put it on the overhead cabinet door. Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: Choctaw <choctaw@bscn.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] Don't ever do this !!!!! > LOL!! Fay, just respond and tell them you know exactly who their family is > and name names... NO! I'm kidding, sorry...it's too late and I'm saying > wayyy too much, I need to sleep! > Shelley > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > To subscribe to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L Genealogy mail list: > Send msg. to CHOCTAW-SOUTHEAST-L-request@rootsweb.com > Put "one" word in "body" of message:... "subscribe" without the quotes > Nothing in the subject line... Turn off signatures....... >

Just rant on, I enjoyed it. I have always felt I was born "out of turn". I mean I think God said "come on, it's time to go" somewhere in the 1800's and I was off lolly gagging around and missed the boat and had to wait until 1941. I think I was born about 100 years off. That's what I get for playing too much. LOL Fay ----- Original Message ----- From: Choctaw <choctaw@bscn.com> To: <CHAHTA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [CHAHTA] twinkies > A Native American is anyone who is born in American. Personally, I think we > call ourselves indians without second thought, but when someone else does, > we think they are referring to someone from India. Sort of like blacks > who don't mind being called "nigger" by each other, but are offended if > anyone else calls them that. > I THINK that the term Native American is the "politically correct" name > right now, although most "indians" prefer American Indian. > Speaking for myself, I think I prefer Indian or American Indian, of the > three, but I would really rather just be call Choctaw. > I remember being probably four or five years old and learning that I was > Choctaw. We at the time happened to live on Choctaw St. and I of course > felt there was a reason for that and it was cause I lived there LOL We had > a neighbor who had a bumper sticker on her car that said "Cherokee and Proud > of it" I remember wanting a car just so I could put a Choctaw sticker on > it. I can say that I am 37 yrs old and have a bumper sticker on my car that > says "Proud to be Choctaw". I also remember that I said I would marry an > indian and my kids would "show" their indian more than I do. We all know > that doesn't always work, but it does tell me that at a very early age I > knew I was more indian inside than I looked on the outside. > When I've been asked if I could go back in time or be anyone, I have always > thought/said that I would want to be a Choctaw woman in the late 1700s, > just so I could learn the old ways before the foreign influences on the > tribe. > Ok, getting off my soapbox. Notice I say nothing or very little, then I > just start ranting? LOL? > Yokoke > Shelley > > > ==== CHAHTA Mailing List ==== > Need more CHOCTAW information?? Visit Judy White's pages at http://accessgenealogy.com/native for rolls, data, etc. >

LOL!! Fay, just respond and tell them you know exactly who their family is and name names... NO! I'm kidding, sorry...it's too late and I'm saying wayyy too much, I need to sleep! Shelley

A Native American is anyone who is born in American. Personally, I think we call ourselves indians without second thought, but when someone else does, we think they are referring to someone from India. Sort of like blacks who don't mind being called "nigger" by each other, but are offended if anyone else calls them that. I THINK that the term Native American is the "politically correct" name right now, although most "indians" prefer American Indian. Speaking for myself, I think I prefer Indian or American Indian, of the three, but I would really rather just be call Choctaw. I remember being probably four or five years old and learning that I was Choctaw. We at the time happened to live on Choctaw St. and I of course felt there was a reason for that and it was cause I lived there LOL We had a neighbor who had a bumper sticker on her car that said "Cherokee and Proud of it" I remember wanting a car just so I could put a Choctaw sticker on it. I can say that I am 37 yrs old and have a bumper sticker on my car that says "Proud to be Choctaw". I also remember that I said I would marry an indian and my kids would "show" their indian more than I do. We all know that doesn't always work, but it does tell me that at a very early age I knew I was more indian inside than I looked on the outside. When I've been asked if I could go back in time or be anyone, I have always thought/said that I would want to be a Choctaw woman in the late 1700s, just so I could learn the old ways before the foreign influences on the tribe. Ok, getting off my soapbox. Notice I say nothing or very little, then I just start ranting? LOL? Yokoke Shelley

Query: "I lost contact with the Indian side of my family. So I dont know any names." I am not joking, this is an actual and complete query. Not one other piece of information was given. Fay Don't ever give up.!!!! http://www.accessgenealogy.com/gedcoms/ratcliff/ List owner HOLDEN-L, SCHIFANO-L