Hello everybody, I am really wondering about what is going on at this list. It is called "discussion & support list", and I thought the list was started because discussions might be useful to Ira, the developer, and us, the users. But some people on this list don't like real discussion - however civilized. Every time there are some disagreements, they start what I call "Hallelujah postings" instead of discussing the actual subject. I am not able to understand that any of the "Hallelujah postings" are of any use in the development of Cftw. I am a very "heavy" user of Cftw. I do the Norwegian Nynorsk translation, I have posted probably more than hundred bug reports and suggestions to this list. I have a database with about 30.000 individuals - all registered in Cftw. I have sent a lot of postings to Norwegian news groups with information about Cftw. I am doing this because I am using the program every day, and because I want it to be as good as possible. Since I have attended the emigration/immigration discussion, I really got "hot" when the List owner wrote: >NOT up to whining users to attempt to dictate such >things. If that is the List owner's attitude to discussions and people who don't agree with him, I will consider stopping my postings to this list. Then I will post them directly to Ira - I hope he understands why I am doing this better than the List owner and the "Hallelujah people". May be it will be wise for George to start a new "Cftw Hallelujah List" for people who can't stand serious discussions? Regards Sigurd Eliassen Norway

At 08:08 AM 03/31/2001, Sigurd Eliassen wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >(snip) >Since I have attended the emigration/immigration discussion, I really >got "hot" when the List owner wrote: > > >NOT up to whining users to attempt to dictate such > >things. > >If that is the List owner's attitude to discussions and people who >don't agree with him, I will consider stopping my postings to this >list. Then I will post them directly to Ira - I hope he understands >why I am doing this better than the List owner and the "Hallelujah >people". > >May be it will be wise for George to start a new "Cftw Hallelujah >List" for people who can't stand serious discussions? > >Regards >Sigurd Eliassen >Norway **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********** Sigurd, if you had read every email I had sent to this List, you would certainly know that I DID NOT post the above because I didn't agree with the posters!!!!! I sent it, as is my privilege as the Listowner, to step in and try to calm down things when it appears people are going to start arguing and things are going to get out of hand. If you have read all my other postings on such matters, you KNOW I have always defended the right of users to discuss subjects when some people don't think they are "on topic". (How could I "disagree with the posters", when there were several sides to the arguments? Do you mean to say I disagreed with ALL of them?) I manage this List voluntarily, because I want to. Your post is nothing short of insulting and degrading. You owe me an apology. Ira used the word "whining" and I don't see you criticizing HIM here on the List! In the future, if you have a problem with the way I manage this List, send me a private email. I'm only replying here to the List because you posted your criticism of me here. Fair is fair. And, it would be nice if you would explain this: "But some people on this list don't like real discussion - however civilized. Every time there are some disagreements, they start what I call "Hallelujah postings" instead of discussing the actual subject." YOU are doing the same thing you accuse ME of. And, you don't manage this List, I do. Regards, SgtGeorge George W. Durman Knoxville, TN

There seems to be two problems on this list that I do not care for. 1. Some who want to squelch discussion of a topic and ask other people to stop discussing a certain topic: such as asking others to stop commenting on how they like CFT-Win. This is not the only "stop-discussion" type comment lately. I believe all of you should leave it up to me (Ira) and the List Manager (George) to determine when to ask someone to stop discussing a topic. I am afraid that before long, many of those on the shy side will not dare post to this list, because someone will tell them that it is "off-topic" or afraid to offend someone. (In fact, I know there are already those who will not post to this List.) Please let George and I control this. 2. There are a few, whom I do feel are "whining users". I think I was the originator of that word. There is a difference between 'civilized' discussion and 'whining'. When I explain my reasons and we all discuss with respect for one another's feelings, then that is "civilized". After I have made a decision and explained to all why I did what I did, and then someone starts complaining that I did not do what "they" wanted me to do, then I call that "whining". I wished we could stop both of these things. And, yes, George, I think I have gotten to a point where trying to fulfill every user wish is beginning to become unreasonable. And so I have to slow down, to maintain the program's integrity and my own sanity. If we drive away decent civilized discussion and the less-forward users, there will be no reason to even maintain this list, as it will become a list only for the bold and daring. Ira ------------------------------------------------ Mr. Ira J. Lund E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.cf-software.com Cumberland Family Software, 385 Idaho Springs Road, Clarksville TN 37043