Tomas, we now have a perfect description of the origin of the godfather institution and its use over time - thanks to Bill Stevenson and to Ira. Today - in Denmark at least - the real function is more that of a witness, so you might use the witness event to describe this (I know that it still also includes the responsibility of the (religious) upbringing of the child should the parents die, but this is today not a legal obligation; I believe its use in practice is almost non-existant). Another way - and better, I believe - is to describe the data and information on the godfathers and -mothers in a note related to the christening-event. As far as I know it is always associated with (the date of) this event. This is how I have always handled it. Jens E. Brammer, Øverød, Denmark > -----Original Message----- > From: Tomas Larsson (RSA) [mailto:[email protected]] > > Does CFTW handle this in any way? > ///Tomas > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Stevenson [mailto:[email protected]]

In the ruling classes in both German, Celtic and Slavic peoples there was an institutionalised form of hostage-taking by fosterage to secure loyalties and was practised in pre-christian times. Kings, princes, dukes, etc., placed their children as a hostage with a neighbour and the neighbour was (almost) certain that the parent would not risk the life of their offspring by entering alliances with "dangeous persons" otherwise the child would be mistreated or killed. Such child hostages were often exchanged to ensure a "mutual understanding". The practice of godparenting among the common citizenry was intended as an insurance policy for the wellbeing of the child, should the parents die before adulthood, as well as providing a security for that the child should be brought up in the Christan faith. It has also been common for a childless person to be invited to be a godparent, in the hope that the child may inherit the worldry goods of the godparent. ********************************************************* * Bill Stevenson * Mag. art. ( Geogr.sci.) * Incorporated Urban Planner * Research Librarian/Map Librarian * Aalborg University Library * Postbox 8220 * DK-9220 AALBORG * Denmark * E-mail: [email protected] * Telephone: (+45) 9635 9384 * Telefax: (+45) 9815 3844 * URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2271 ********************************************************* We are drowning in information, while thirsting for wisdom This message was transmitted using information enriched recyclable electrons ****************************************************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: Ira J Lund [SMTP:[email protected]] > Sent: 17. september 2001 14.05 > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [CFTW] How to do with the swedish "faddrar"? > > A lot depends on the individual wishes. In CFT-Win you can attach more > than > one set of parents to an individual and indicate the parent type - such as > "god parent". > > In ancient Scandinavian this god parent relationship often resulted in the > god parent raising the child, even though the the natural birth parents > were still alive. Such is the case of King Håkon "the Good" (son of Harald > Hårfager "Fairhaired") who was raised by his godfather, the English King > Athelstan. In my genealogy, I do not show this godparent relationship, > although with such an intimate connection between the child and > godparents, > it sure makes one wonder. > > Ira > > At 12:01 PM 9/17/01 +0200, you wrote: > >Does CFTW handle this in any way? > >///Tomas > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Bill Stevenson [mailto:[email protected]] > >Sent: den 17 september 2001 08:38 > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: RE: [CFTW] How to do with the swedish "faddrar"? > > > > > >It means "godfather" ie one who takes upon themselves the responsibility > for > >the child´s upbringing should the parents die before adulthood. This is > the > >procedure in the Evangelical Lutheran (and other) church(es). > > ------------------------------------------------ > Mr. Ira J. Lund > E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.cf-software.com > > Cumberland Family Software, 385 Idaho Springs Road, Clarksville TN 37043 > > > ==== CFT-WIN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from CFT-WIN, send an e-mail message to: > [email protected] (for individual messages) > [email protected] (for Digest mode) > Subject: unsubscribe > In the body include only one word: unsubscribe > (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog

Does CFTW handle this in any way? ///Tomas -----Original Message----- From: Bill Stevenson [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: den 17 september 2001 08:38 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [CFTW] How to do with the swedish "faddrar"? It means "godfather" ie one who takes upon themselves the responsibility for the child´s upbringing should the parents die before adulthood. This is the procedure in the Evangelical Lutheran (and other) church(es). ********************************************************* * Bill Stevenson * Mag. art. ( Geogr.sci.) * Incorporated Urban Planner * Research Librarian/Map Librarian * Aalborg University Library * Postbox 8220 * DK-9220 AALBORG * Denmark * E-mail: [email protected] * Telephone: (+45) 9635 9384 * Telefax: (+45) 9815 3844 * URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2271 ********************************************************* We are drowning in information, while thirsting for wisdom This message was transmitted using information enriched recyclable electrons ****************************************************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: Tomas Larsson (RSA) [SMTP:[email protected]] > Sent: 17. september 2001 08.20 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [CFTW] How to do with the swedish "faddrar"? > > Hello everyone! > > I have a question regarding the swedish way of using "faddrar" when a > child is christened. > Is it possible that it is the same as "witness"? > > If not, is there anyone that has a good suggestion for how to deal with > "faddrar", please let me know. > > > Best regards > > Tomas Larsson > Sweden > > > ==== CFT-WIN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from CFT-WIN, send an e-mail message to: > [email protected] (for individual messages) > [email protected] (for Digest mode) > Subject: unsubscribe > In the body include only one word: unsubscribe > (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB ==== CFT-WIN Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from CFT-WIN, send an e-mail message to: [email protected] (for individual messages) [email protected] (for Digest mode) Subject: unsubscribe In the body include only one word: unsubscribe (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) ============================== Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp

It means "godfather" ie one who takes upon themselves the responsibility for the child´s upbringing should the parents die before adulthood. This is the procedure in the Evangelical Lutheran (and other) church(es). ********************************************************* * Bill Stevenson * Mag. art. ( Geogr.sci.) * Incorporated Urban Planner * Research Librarian/Map Librarian * Aalborg University Library * Postbox 8220 * DK-9220 AALBORG * Denmark * E-mail: [email protected] * Telephone: (+45) 9635 9384 * Telefax: (+45) 9815 3844 * URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2271 ********************************************************* We are drowning in information, while thirsting for wisdom This message was transmitted using information enriched recyclable electrons ****************************************************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: Tomas Larsson (RSA) [SMTP:[email protected]] > Sent: 17. september 2001 08.20 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [CFTW] How to do with the swedish "faddrar"? > > Hello everyone! > > I have a question regarding the swedish way of using "faddrar" when a > child is christened. > Is it possible that it is the same as "witness"? > > If not, is there anyone that has a good suggestion for how to deal with > "faddrar", please let me know. > > > Best regards > > Tomas Larsson > Sweden > > > ==== CFT-WIN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from CFT-WIN, send an e-mail message to: > [email protected] (for individual messages) > [email protected] (for Digest mode) > Subject: unsubscribe > In the body include only one word: unsubscribe > (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

Hello everyone! I have a question regarding the swedish way of using "faddrar" when a child is christened. Is it possible that it is the same as "witness"? If not, is there anyone that has a good suggestion for how to deal with "faddrar", please let me know. Best regards Tomas Larsson Sweden

A lot depends on the individual wishes. In CFT-Win you can attach more than one set of parents to an individual and indicate the parent type - such as "god parent". In ancient Scandinavian this god parent relationship often resulted in the god parent raising the child, even though the the natural birth parents were still alive. Such is the case of King Håkon "the Good" (son of Harald Hårfager "Fairhaired") who was raised by his godfather, the English King Athelstan. In my genealogy, I do not show this godparent relationship, although with such an intimate connection between the child and godparents, it sure makes one wonder. Ira At 12:01 PM 9/17/01 +0200, you wrote: >Does CFTW handle this in any way? >///Tomas > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Stevenson [mailto:[email protected]] >Sent: den 17 september 2001 08:38 >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: [CFTW] How to do with the swedish "faddrar"? > > >It means "godfather" ie one who takes upon themselves the responsibility for >the child´s upbringing should the parents die before adulthood. This is the >procedure in the Evangelical Lutheran (and other) church(es). ------------------------------------------------ Mr. Ira J. Lund E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.cf-software.com Cumberland Family Software, 385 Idaho Springs Road, Clarksville TN 37043

Thank you Jens. As Listowner, I have never stopped polite and meaningful posts, even if they were "off-topic" and had nothing to do with CFTW. I felt that the forwarded post was important because it WAS interesting and balanced, much more so than just about anything else you will read on the subject. However, I WILL not abide with inflammatory postings from any side of an argument, nor abusive language. There IS a limit to "off-topic" discussion. SgtGeorge George W. Durman At 06:00 AM 09/13/2001, Jens Erik \(Mik\) Brammer wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >I agree with Ira that this subject should be discussed elsewhere. Not >because there are some "foreigners" on the list (I see a few Danes on the >list, the rest are foreigners!) but only because the subject of this list is >the CFT software - and none of all the other important things we all have in >our minds and want to share or discuss with others. > >So I was much surprized to see our sergeant pass this off-subject message on >from Robert Broyles. But after reading it I will forgive SgtGeorge in this >case: I find the comments from Broyles some of the most interesting and >balanced I have seen. > >To me the conlusion must be: more clever (not necessarily nice) diplomacy >and maybe more serious airport control. Revenge and retaliation will never >solve the problem. This will be my last and only input off-subject. > >Jens E. Brammer, Øverød, Denmark (where we will have 2 minutes of >countrywide quietness tomorrow) **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT**********

I agree with Ira. I've been really busy or I would have put a stop to this much sooner. All you, if you read the Welcome Message, know that this sort of thing is not allowed here. An occasional off-topic post on a pertinent subject is OK; inflammatory or abusive remarks are not OK. SgtGeorge George W. Durman List Manager At 07:42 AM 09/12/2001, Ira J Lund wrote: *********START OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT********* >I would ask everyone to immediately stop talking about the events of >yesterday on the CFT-Win mailing list. This is not the place to be >discussing these things and I do not like the stirring up of hatred and >annomosity on this mailing list. Remember that there are "foreginers" on >this list!! And they are ALL welcome here. People from all over the world >are on this list. If I see any more messages about this topic I will ask >George to pull the list off-line for a few days or so. There are other >lists that are better used for these topics. > >Ira **********END OF ORIGINAL MESSAGE TEXT**********

I do not know who you are or what you are. But I would suggest today is not the day to air your style of sentiment. Arsehole ! Tommie Suber <[email protected] To: [email protected] ahoo.com> cc: Subject: Re: [CFTW] Fw: [CRR] Fly the 12/09/01 Flag and Give Blood NOW 03:11 Please respond to CFT-WIN-L What goes around comes around. Bombing baby food factories and pharmaceutical factories invites exactly this kind of response. If you don't like terrorism make the US stop practicing it on the rest of the world ===== Tom Suber 6939 Eastview Drive Worthington, Ohio 43085 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ==== CFT-WIN Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from CFT-WIN, send an e-mail message to: [email protected] (for individual messages) [email protected] (for Digest mode) Subject: unsubscribe In the body include only one word: unsubscribe (Turn OFF your signature file when sending this command) ============================== Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2

I would ask everyone to immediately stop talking about the events of yesterday on the CFT-Win mailing list. This is not the place to be discussing these things and I do not like the stirring up of hatred and annomosity on this mailing list. Remember that there are "foreginers" on this list!! And they are ALL welcome here. People from all over the world are on this list. If I see any more messages about this topic I will ask George to pull the list off-line for a few days or so. There are other lists that are better used for these topics. Ira ------------------------------------------------ Mr. Ira J. Lund E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.cf-software.com Cumberland Family Software, 385 Idaho Springs Road, Clarksville TN 37043

Here are two things, received from other lists, which we CAN do now. Please join me in forwarding these messages. I received this from an Internet email: I'm sure all of you are just as appalled and angered by today's events as I am. Let's start a grass roots movement and see if we can get it all across our great nation. If you've got a United States Flag by all means FLY IT!!!! If you support me in this, please forward this to the folks in your email address book. America has been attacked, she has not been defeated! Blood will be shipped to New York, remember that what you give in your area will aid those who desperately need it. For information call: US, 1-800-BLOOD-SAVE Canada, 1-888-2DONATE (1-888-236-6283.

>When the miscellaneous tag EVEN is used with the subordinate TYPE, the descriptor >used with TYPE usually imports as the event description. I don't recall seeing anyone >use the TYPE tag subordinate to the MARR tag although it is legal to use it with any >event or attribute tag. In checking a number of GEDCOM files for the GEDCOM >Testbook Project it has been a real eye-opener to see how few of the >legitimate tags and >structures are actually used by the various programs. It would appear most developers >only chose to import the tags and structures they use for export. I would suppose that the reason they only import tags they use for export is because the internal database is structured only to hold those particular tags which are exported. So these other tags (which are unknown to the program) the program has no idea what to do with them. This would especially be true for a program that does not allow user defined events, but can be true with any program in many small details. I have struggled with this a lot myself. CFT-Win can drop "unknown" tags to the note field, but then months later a user notices this funny stuff in someone's note and wonders what it is doing there and then says they didn't want it there. It is difficult to know how to handle all situations for all people. Ira ------------------------------------------------ Mr. Ira J. Lund E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.cf-software.com Cumberland Family Software, 385 Idaho Springs Road, Clarksville TN 37043

> Yes, and that is what CFT-Win does to NOTM (not married) or LTOG (lived > together) or CLM (common law marriage) tags - place them under the TYPE > tag. The problem is that other programs don't recognize what these TYPE > tags really are. They are simply unrecognized "events" to other programs. I > have the same problem when CFT gets a TYPE tag created by another program. > It really doesn't know what they are supposed to be for. When the miscellaneous tag EVEN is used with the subordinate TYPE, the descriptor used with TYPE usually imports as the event description. I don't recall seeing anyone use the TYPE tag subordinate to the MARR tag although it is legal to use it with any event or attribute tag. In checking a number of GEDCOM files for the GEDCOM Testbook Project it has been a real eye-opener to see how few of the legitimate tags and structures are actually used by the various programs. It would appear most developers only chose to import the tags and structures they use for export. Bill

Quoting Ira J Lund ([email protected]): > Sorry, there is no way. The only possibility is a time consumming one - > editing the GED file directly and deleting all the lines that have the QUAY > tag. But this would not be fun. ...which is quite easy with high-level text editors such as Emacs.... For Windows users who do not belong to the Unix world and have no clue about Emacs (even there is a good Win32 port of it), several editors include a regexp search/replace function which can make the trick for deleting all lines starting with "QUAY", for instance. I remember a thing named textpad, for instance.... Shareware...

At 09:33 PM 9/6/01 -0600, you wrote: > >> >Guess until they invent a GEDCOM "not married" event, I have to see >people >> >married no matter what. It is quite evident when you upload a GEDCOM to >> >Rootsweb World Connect Project. >> Yes, you are correct. There are no GEDCOM standard events to indicate that >> people are not married. > >Actually "not married" could be indicated by using the TYPE tag subordinate >to >the MARR tag. This is a legitimate use of the TYPE tag but few programs >support it. Yes, and that is what CFT-Win does to NOTM (not married) or LTOG (lived together) or CLM (common law marriage) tags - place them under the TYPE tag. The problem is that other programs don't recognize what these TYPE tags really are. They are simply unrecognized "events" to other programs. I have the same problem when CFT gets a TYPE tag created by another program. It really doesn't know what they are supposed to be for. Ira ------------------------------------------------ Mr. Ira J. Lund E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.cf-software.com Cumberland Family Software, 385 Idaho Springs Road, Clarksville TN 37043

At 09:12 PM 9/6/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hello! In exporting to GEDCOM, how does one NOT export the "Sure" information? I've exported to GEDCOM, then imported into FTM 8.0, and the "Sure" rating is appended to the end of every individual and event as "Quality:0" (or whatever number I've assigned it in CFT-Win). It looks awful, and there's no way to exclude it from the FTM reports. Sorry, there is no way. The only possibility is a time consumming one - editing the GED file directly and deleting all the lines that have the QUAY tag. But this would not be fun. Ira ------------------------------------------------ Mr. Ira J. Lund E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.cf-software.com Cumberland Family Software, 385 Idaho Springs Road, Clarksville TN 37043

> >Guess until they invent a GEDCOM "not married" event, I have to see people > >married no matter what. It is quite evident when you upload a GEDCOM to > >Rootsweb World Connect Project. > Yes, you are correct. There are no GEDCOM standard events to indicate that > people are not married. Actually "not married" could be indicated by using the TYPE tag subordinate to the MARR tag. This is a legitimate use of the TYPE tag but few programs support it. Bill

Hello! In exporting to GEDCOM, how does one NOT export the "Sure" information? I've exported to GEDCOM, then imported into FTM 8.0, and the "Sure" rating is appended to the end of every individual and event as "Quality:0" (or whatever number I've assigned it in CFT-Win). It looks awful, and there's no way to exclude it from the FTM reports. Thanks in advance- Russ

>Guess until they invent a GEDCOM "not married" event, I have to see people >married no matter what. It is quite evident when you upload a GEDCOM to >Rootsweb World Connect Project. Yes, you are correct. There are no GEDCOM standard events to indicate that people are not married. Ira ------------------------------------------------ Mr. Ira J. Lund E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.cf-software.com Cumberland Family Software, 385 Idaho Springs Road, Clarksville TN 37043

In a message dated 9/5/01 8:53:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << FAM is a GEDCOM tag -- (wasn't thinking about this) BUT it is NOT an event. >> ah: EVENT vs. TAG : thanks for the clarification. Was not aware of the difference. Guess until they invent a GEDCOM "not married" event, I have to see people married no matter what. It is quite evident when you upload a GEDCOM to Rootsweb World Connect Project. Karen Pastuzyn