I was referring to "proof of relationship" in an adjudicative sense of the word. A death certificate provides the informant name and indicates the relationship of the informant to the deceased, such as son, friend, etc.. The informant may or may not have any relationship to the deceased. But the relationship is not proven since the death certificate merely records what the informant said -- accurately or not. For genealogical purposes a death certificate may be sufficient "proof" of relationship, and indeed a lead toward other relations. Legally it is of no value whatsoever except for the fact and date of death. Christine Ross <[email protected]al.net> wrote: re: the postscript about death certificates not establishng that someone is a daughter - that depends on the person filling out the death certificate. I have certs from some of my family members where it lists the name of the individual that provided/verified the decendants info and their relationship to the decendent (son, niece, etc.) I have found a lot of family information/linkages/living cousins by also tracing the person that provided information on my ancestor's d.c.'s. Christine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Betty" To: Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: Re: [CASANFRA] reasons for not being listed in SSDI Hi Doug, Thank you for explaining that ! All of my grandparents died during the 1960's, and none of them appear in the SSDI. (MA, 1960, 1961, 1967, and 2/1968) Betty (near Lowell, MA) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Urbanus" To: Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [CASANFRA] reasons for not being listed in SSDI > Social Security paid nothing until 1940. The first survivor benefit > equaled 3x the "primary insurance amount" not to exceed $255 (or $85 > monthly). Eventually this was converted to what is called the "lumpsum > death" benefit that is now payable to only the surviving spouse. > > By now the chatter must convince everyone that it was not necessary to > have received benefits in order to be listed in the SSDI. Because the > master beneficiary record, as an electronic record, began in 1968, deaths > that occured prior to this date are rarely displayed on the SSDI. If > there is a pre-1968 record it means that a survivor applied for benefits > under that SSN after 1967. Any listing from 1968 on means either (1) the > person or a survivor drew benefits or (2) for a non-beneficiary the death > was reported to SSA. For years this meant usually a funeral director > report or someone who presented a death certificate. A > post-1967non-appearance (as suggested by the rootsweb site) likely means a > delay in the report (that is, the death certificate has not been > finalized), an incorrect name/SSN relative to the numident record (which > contains the application for an SSN and duplicate cards issued after the > orginal) or possibly the person did not have an SSN. There was no > requirement until the 1980s for a survivor or spouse to even have an SSN. > Until the 1990s there was no requirement that a dependent on a tax return > have an SSN/TIN. [Anyone notice that deceased minors seemingly never > appear]. Today just about everyone has an SSN. And today I'm sure with > the multiple electronic sources of death, it's rare that a deceased person > does not appear on the SSDI at least eventually. > > I don't recall mentioning that I worked for Social Security. So while I > may not know everything relative to this question, I can speculate > knowledgeably on just about every reason why someone is NOT on the SSDI. > > P.S. Death certificates establish death. Marriage and birth > certificates establish relationships. A death certificate would never > establish that someone was a daughter. > > [email protected] wrote: > I joined the list over 3 years ago in my quest to obtain information on > my uncle's marriage in San Francisco. He died in 1939 in Oregon which I > believe is where he went shortly after his wife died. They had a daughter > that I've been trying to locate but I've need his wifeâ?Ts maiden name, so > I could. Sadly his daughter could never receive any SSI since uncle Vic > was never listed on the death records for Social Security, in fact she > doesnâ?Tt even know he died. > My grandfather was next of kin and wasn't the nicest person, that's why > all of his children left TN. In fact when my grandmother died he never had > a cemetery marker placed on her grave [donâ?Tt think he paid for her > funeral]. I was very young and remember when gramps died and my dad & > uncles where all over the cemetery trying to locate her grave. > Gramps received a letter from the funeral home in Oregon [I have the > papers from the funeral home] that's how the family knew my uncle died in > Oregon. But gramps didnâ?Tt want to be responsible for the funeral bills > so he never replied. It doesnâ?Tt surprise me since he didnâ?Tt pay for > the funerals of 2 of his other wives or another son who died. Since he was > next of kin he was the one to notify Social Security and apply for any > benefits and etc. Since Social Security was never informed of Uncle > Vicâ?Ts death, there is no record. The funeral home back then could not > notify the Social Security administration and the state of Oregon didnâ?Tt > either. > Patti > > ************************** > Visit SFGenealogy.com! > http://www.sfgenealogy.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ************************** Visit SFGenealogy.com! http://www.sfgenealogy.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************** Visit SFGenealogy.com! http://www.sfgenealogy.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message