"We have demonstrated clearly that there are many different and completely "unrelated" Carpenter families.....but many are evidently English, and it is therefore remarkable that the two Williams are related at all. This is the "nugget" to carry away from the DNA testing." I fail to see any nugget at all. How do you really know the groups of Carpenters, besides the Rehoboth and Providence Carpenters, were English at all? That there were unrelated Carpenter families in America is evidence of nothing and completely unremarkable. What is in any way remarkable about the two Williams being related? The area from Oxford to Salisbury and over to the Hungerford-Shalbourne area is about the size of Rhode Island. It would have been remarkable had they been unrelated. BC Nara, Japan

Bruce wrote: > I fail to see any nugget at all. How do you really know the groups of > Carpenters, besides the Rehoboth and Providence Carpenters, were English > at all? That there were unrelated Carpenter families in America is > evidence of nothing and completely unremarkable. Take a look at the lineages for the testees. Some are known to be translated German/Swiss Zimmermans, but most are Carpenters as far back as they have been traced. Many fizzle out in the 19th century, but some go back to the early-to-mid-1700s. These are found in Virginia, rather than Pennsylvania, and it is therefore reasonable to conclude they are English, not German. > What is in any way remarkable about the two Williams being related? The > area from Oxford to Salisbury and over to the Hungerford-Shalbourne area > is about the size of Rhode Island. It would have been remarkable had they > been unrelated. You are taking the wrong meaning of "related". In the context of male-line genealogy, which Y-DNA studies always are, "related" means having the same male-line ancestor, i.e., being the same family. It is certainly not remarkable that two people living within 100 miles or so should be related though intermarriages, but that has nothing to do with the male line. It is indeed remarkable that they should be the same Carpenter family, given that we now have confirmation of the muliple origins of the name. John Chandler

Bruce E., John F. Chandler wrote, "We have demonstrated clearly that there are many different and completely "unrelated" Carpenter families.....but many are evidently English, and it is therefore remarkable that the two Williams are related at all. This is the "nugget" to carry away from the DNA testing." Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project groups have "many different and completely "unrelated" Carpenter families" and this is shown by thier projected Haplogroups ... Group 7, 8, 10 & 12 is Haplogroup R1b which is also called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. A large portion of western Europeans and those from England have the DYS markers for this group. Group 4, 5, 6, is Haplogroup I. Group 11 is I1b. Group 1 is E3b. Group 2, 3, & 8 is R1a. For FTDNA information of the above Haplogroups see "A)" below. When people have their Y-DNA tested by FTDNA they are asked to give where their paternal line ancestry came from. This allows others to compare their DYS markers and haplogroup to someone elses's ancestry. Example - See: http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenclature_system/table1.html BEC wrote: "What is in any way remarkable about the two Williams being related?" (For those who have not been following this thread, we are talking about the two William Carpenters that came from England in the mid to late 1630s. They settled and are known as being from Providence, RI and Rehoboth, MA.) Let us look at the previously mentioned "nugget" and what is remarkable and interesting about the two "Williams. Carpenter Groups 2 & 3 (Providence & Rehoboth branches of the Carpenter Family in America) has a Haplogroup that descended on the 2005 Y-Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree ... http://www.familytreedna.com/haplotree.html ... from Haplogroup A (M168) to B to F (M89) to K (M9) to P (M45) then to R (M207). The "M" represents a marker number. The Phylogenetic Tree is based on the hypothesis that evolutionary events happened in a certain order which is theoretical. Haplogroup R is broken down into subgroups or haplotypes often called clades. The clade movement of R (M207) to R1 (M173) to R1a (M17) to R1a1 to R1a1* can be traced on the 2005 version of the human Y-DNA family tree. The asterisk (*) represents no agreed upon down stream marker. The 2002 version of the Phylogenetic tree ... http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenclature_system/fig1.html ... has a comparison to the older Haplogroup definitions that has caused much confusion. Look on the far right side. For example, R1a1 matches up with the older Hg 3, Eu19 & H16 groups. Most of the Carpenters of New England descent are represented in Groups 2 & 3 in the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project ... http://members.cox.net/johnrcarpenter/index.htm ... These particular Carpenters have the R1a1 (R1a1*) markers. Remember that Haplogroups change over a large period of time. Think of at least 10,000 years as a minimal part of any change for a Haplogroup. This means our ancestry started at the dawn of human kind. The subgroups called haplotypes or clades of R have changed more recently. Think before, during and after the last major Ice Age! Today, actually within the last 20 years of Y-DNA testing, No more than 18% of the male populations of the North Countries of Europe have the R1a1 Haplogroup and specific DYS markers that are seen in Western Europe. These R1a1s are from the areas that have been referred to as the land of the Vikings. For more details see the following web page: http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf Our Carpenter Groups 2 & 3 DYS markers have two specific markers that are common (up to 50% of males in the population) in parts of Eastern Europe R1a1s that are rarely seen in the Western European R1a1s. The Eastern markers seem to fall in the R1a1* Haplotype or clade common from Poland through the Ukraine regions of Eastern Europe. Specifically these are DYS 19 = 16 & YCAII a,b = 19,23 which are better represented in Eastern Europe than the R1a1 DYS 19 = 15 & YCAII a,b = 19,21 seen in Western Europe R1a1 groups. This R1a1 Haplogroup is found in less than 4% of the males tested in England. No study has yet been done to differentiate between the Western and Eastern DYS markers of Haplogroup R1a1 in the islands called England. It is speculated that most of the R1a1 Haplogroups that came to the British Isles came from Viking type settlers from the North Countries of Europe. Example: If three out of four R1a1s in the area of England have the DYS western markers, then there would be less than 1% of the male population tested to have the R1a1 eastern DYS markers. Without specific testing, this example is just a guess. It might be even rarer than thought in England. Even using the example of 1%, this would make Groups 2 & 3 ancestors in England unique. It would make them unique in the rest of western Europe also. It will be interesting to see what research will be done in future Y-DNA research on the R1a1 clades. For clarification, most European R1a1s are probably R1a1* in the Phylogenetic tree presented through FTDNA. The DYS markers representing Eastern and Western European are different from the R1a1a, b, c & d clades. Further Y-DNA study will either confirm or deny this. Keep in mind that Haplogroup classification is fairly useless for locating the specific place of origin of your paternal line. While each Haplogroup has general areas in which it is more common, there has been enough mixing of people on the European continent (especially in the last several hundred years) to prevent using these classifications to pinpoint any single place of origin. This is why documentation of a paper trail in genealogy is so important in ancestor research. Haplogroups and Haplotypes (Clades) can rule out one or more venues of research, but it does not replace the CSI type work needed in Carpenter Research. In summary, Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Groups 2 & 3 as R1A1*s represent only a very small portion of the population that is in England. For two Carpenter groups that have NO proven documentation of relatedness in England this is indeed remarkable. I find it, to borrow a phrase from Star Trek's Mr. Spock, "Facinating." John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA A) Haplogroup Descriptions The results below compare your Family Tree DNA Y-DNA STR test with the world-wide database of Dr. Hammer. The Haplogroups shown were confirmed by SNP (Single Nucleotide Polymorphism) tests at Dr. Hammer's lab, which uses the YCC nomenclature. Haplogroups are a classification tied to deep ancestry (think 10,000 or 10's of 1000's of years) and are used in the human Phylogenetic tree. SEE: YCC NRY Tree 2002 at the Universiy of Arizona site. http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenclature_system/fig1.html I The I, I1, and I1a lineages are nearly completely restricted to northwestern Europe. These would most likely have been common within Viking populations. One lineage of this group extends down into central Europe. I1b This line was derived within Viking / Scandinavian populations in northwest Europe and has since spread down into southern Europe where it is present at low frequencies. R1* The undifferentiated R1 lineage is quite rare. It is found only at very low frequencies in Europe, Central Asia, and South Asia. This lineage possibly originated in Europe and then migrated east into Asia. R1a The R1a lineage is believed to have originated in the Eurasian Steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas. This lineage is believed to have originated in a population of the Kurgan culture, known for the domestication of the horse (approximately 3000 B.C.E.). These people were also believed to be the first speakers of the Indo-European language group. This lineage is currently found in central and western Asia, India, and in Slavic populations of Eastern Europe. R1b Haplogroup R1b is the most common haplogroup in European populations. It is believed to have expanded throughout Europe as humans re-colonized after the last glacial maximum 10-12 thousand years ago. This lineage is also the haplogroup containing the Atlantic modal haplotype. E3b This haplogroup is believed to have evolved in the Middle East. It expanded into the Mediterranean during the Pleistocene Neolithic expansion. It is currently distributed around the Mediterranean, southern Europe, and in north and east Africa. Copyright 2003 Genealogy by Genetics, Ltd. USAGE POLICY: Use of the above Haplogroup descriptions requires written permission from Genealogy by Genetics. Used with written permission. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 3:07 AM Subject: evidently??? > "We have demonstrated clearly that there are many different and completely > "unrelated" Carpenter families.....but many are evidently English, and it > is therefore remarkable that the two Williams are related at all. This is > the "nugget" to carry away from the DNA testing." > > I fail to see any nugget at all. How do you really know the groups of > Carpenters, besides the Rehoboth and Providence Carpenters, were English > at all? That there were unrelated Carpenter families in America is > evidence of nothing and completely unremarkable. > > What is in any way remarkable about the two Williams being related? The > area from Oxford to Salisbury and over to the Hungerford-Shalbourne area > is about the size of Rhode Island. It would have been remarkable had they > been unrelated. > > > BC > Nara, Japan > > ______________________________