Dear aeg, Here is what I have on file for the line you requested. It was part of my research on the Bouchard and Melun connection to the early Carpenters. The names and data have slight variances from what you listed. I hope this helps, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ****************************************************** Descendants of Arnoul I, Count FLANDERS-257 First Generation 1. Arnoul I, Count FLANDERS-257 was born about 889 in of, Flanders, France. He died 27 Mar 964. Arnoul married (1-MRIN:194) Adele (Alice, Alix) VERMANDOIS [COUNT OF FLANDE-319, daughter of Herbert II Count VERMANDOIS-244 and Hildebrante Princess of FRANCE-460 (MRIN:164) on 932/934 in of, Flanders, Belgium. Adele was born about 910/915 in of, Vermandois, Normandy, France. She died 10 Oct 958/960 in Bruges. They had the following children: + 2 M i. Baudouin III, Count FLANDERS-273 was born about 933 and died 1 Nov 962. 3 M ii. Egbert DE FLANDERS-654 was born about 937 in of, Flanders, France. He died 10 Jul 953. + 4 F iii. Elstrude DE FLANDERS [COUNTESS OF GUI-344 was born about 932. + 5 F iv. Hildegard, Countess of FLANDERS-480 was born about 934 and died 10 Apr 990. + 6 F v. Ledgarde DE FLANDERS [COUNTESS OF GAN-463 was born about 941 and died 29 Sep 964. Second Generation 2. Baudouin III, Count FLANDERS-273 was born about 933 in of, Flanders, France. He died 1 Nov 962. Baudouin married (1-MRIN:167) Mathilde Princess of SAXONY [COUNTESS OF FLA-614 before 960. Mathilde was born about 958 in of, SAXONY. She died 25 May 1008. They had the following children: + 7 M i. Arnoul II Count FLANDERS-512 was born about 941 and died 30 Mar 987. + 8 F ii. Bertha, Countess of FLANDERS-541 was born about 1008. 4. Elstrude DE FLANDERS [COUNTESS OF GUI-344 was born about 932 in of, Flanders, Belgium. Elstrude married (1-MRIN:272) Sigefred Le Danois GUISNES-633 about 950 in of, Guisness, Picardy, France. Sigefred was born about 905 in of, GUISNES, Picardy, France. He died 965. They had the following children: 9 F i. Heloise DE GUISNES-485 was born about 926 in of, GUISNES, Picardy, France. Heloise married (1-MRIN:485) Godefroy DE BEC-853. Godefroy was born about 922 in <Of, GUISNES, Picardy, France>. + 10 M ii. Ardolph Count of GUISNES-534 was born about 930. 5. Hildegard, Countess of FLANDERS-480 was born about 934 in of, Gand, Flandre Oriental, Belgium. She died 10 Apr 990 and was buried in Abdijkerk Egmond, Noord Holland, Neth.. Hildegard, married (1-MRIN:367) Dirk II Count HOLLAND & WEST F-650. Dirk was born 938 in of, Egmond-Binnen, Noord Holland, Netherlands. He died 6 May 988 in Abdijkerk Egmond, Noord Holland, Netherlands. They had the following children: 11 M i. Egbert Count of HOLLAND [ARCHBISHOP OF T-510 was born about 937 in of, Egmond-Binnen, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. He died 9 Dec 993 in Trier, Trier, Rheinland. 12 F ii. Erlinda Countess of HOLLAND [ABBESS OF EGMON-848 was born about 939 in of, Egmond-Binnen, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. + 13 M iii. Arnulf Count of HOLLAND & WESTFR-156 was born 961 and died 18 Sep 993. Hildegard, also married (2-MRIN:268) Valeran DE VEXIN-558. Valeran was born about 933 in of, Amiens. 6. Ledgarde DE FLANDERS [COUNTESS OF GAN-463 was born about 941 in of, Flanders, France. She died 29 Sep 964. Ledgarde married (1-MRIN:556) Wickmann (Wieman) I GAND-659 about 955 in of, Gand, East Vlaanderen, Belgium. Wickmann was born about 920 in of, Gand, Flanders, Belgium. They had the following children: + 14 M i. Theodric DE GAND [Count]-544 was born about 956. 15 F ii. Hildegarde DE GAND-1051 was born about 958 in of, Gand, Flanders, Belgium. 16 M iii. Wickmann DE GAND-747 was born about 960 in of, Gand, Flanders, Belgium. Third Generation 7. Arnoul II Count FLANDERS-512 was born about 941 in Flanders, France. He died 30 Mar 987 and was buried 30 Mar 987/989. Arnoul married (1-MRIN:528) Rosele (Susanna), Princess ITALY [QUEEN OF FRANCE-556. Rosele was born about 945 in of, Luxembourg. She died 26 Jan 1003 in Gent, Belgium. They had the following children: 17 M i. Baudouin IV "Barbatus" FLANDERS-27 was born about 967/968 in of, Flanders, France and was christened in Count, of Flanders. He died 30 May 1036/1039 in Flanders, France. Baudouin married (1-MRIN:43) Eleanore DE NORMANDY-26, daughter of Richard II DE NORMANDY "The Good Duke"-14 and Judith DE BRITTANY-13 (MRIN:6). Eleanore was born about 1005 in of, Normandy, France. Baudouin also married (2-MRIN:639) Otgive DE LUXEMBOURG-1156 about 1004 in of, Flanders, France. Otgive was born about 986 in of Flanders, France. She died 21 Feb 1030 in Flanders, France. 8. Bertha, Countess of FLANDERS-541 was born about 1008 in <, Flanders, France>. Bertha, married (1-MRIN:214) Aimon I, Count VIENNE-850. Aimon was born about 1006 in <Of, Geneva, Switzerland>. He died 1016. They had the following children: 18 M i. Gerold Count of GENEVA-1160 was born about 1012 in of, Geneva, Switzerland. He died about 1045. Gerold married (1-MRIN:641) Gisela Countess of GENEVA-1161. Gisela was born about 1020 in of, Switzerland. Gerold also married (2-MRIN:642) Thietburge Mrs FAUCIGNY-1162. Thietburge was born about 1025 in <Of, Geneva, Switzerland>. 10. Ardolph Count of GUISNES-534 was born about 930 in of, GUISNES, Picardy, France. Ardolph married (1-MRIN:126) Mahaud (Matilda) DE BOULOGNE [COMTESSE DE GUI-852 about 978 in of, Guisness, Picardy, France. Mahaud was born about 950 in of, BOULOGNE, Artois, France. They had the following children: 19 M i. Rudolph (Ralph OR GUISNES-1149 was born about 980 in of, GUISNES, Picardy, France. Rudolph married (1-MRIN:638) Rosetta (Rosella) DE SAINT POL-1150 about 1026 in of, Guisness, Picardy, France. Rosetta was born about 1000 in of, St. Pol, Artois, France. 13. Arnulf Count of HOLLAND & WESTFR-156 was born 961 in of, Gand, Flandre Oriental, Belgium. He died 18 Sep 993 in Egmond O/D Hoef, Noord Holland, Netherlands and was buried in Egmond O/D Hoef, Noord Holland, Neth.. Arnulf married (1-MRIN:483) Liutgard Countess of LUXEMBOURG-847 on Aug 980. Liutgard was born about 963 in of, Bruxelles, Brabant, Belgium. She died after 14 May 995. They had the following children: 20 M i. Dirk III Count HOLLAND & WEST F-1169 was born about 981 in of, Gand, Flandre-Oriental, Belgium. He died 27 May 1039. Dirk married (1-MRIN:643) Otehilde Princess of GERMANY-1170. Otehilde was born about 993 in of, Schweinfurt, Unterfranken, BAVARIA. She died 9 Mar 1044. 21 F ii. Aleida Countess of HOLLAND [COUNTESS OF PON-661 was born about 987 in of, Gand, Flandre-Oriental, Belgium. She died about 1045 in of, France. Aleida married (1-MRIN:298) Enguerrand I Count PONTHIEU-660, son of Hughes I Count PONTHIEU [Lordof Abbevill-612 and Gisele DE FRANCE Princess-533 (MRIN:174). Enguerrand was born about 980 in PONTHIEU, Ain, France. He died 1046. Aleida also married (2-MRIN:645) Ernicule II Comte BOLOGNA-1173. Ernicule was born about 987 in <Of, Gand, Flandre-Oriental, Belgium>. 22 M iii. Siegfried (Sicco) Count HOLLAND-1174 was born about 1030 in of, Gand, Flandre-Oriental, Belgium. He died 5 Jun 1030. Siegfried married (1-MRIN:646) Thetburga-1175. Thetburga was born about 987 in <Of, Gand, Flandre-Oriental, Belgium>. 14. Theodric DE GAND [Count]-544 was born about 956 in of, Gand, Flanders, Belgium. Theodric married (1-MRIN:87) Hildegarde DE HOLLAND-1029 about 983 in of, Gand, East Vlaanderen, Belgium. Hildegarde was born about 961 in of, Zuid Holland, Netherland. They had the following children: 23 M i. Arnoul Count DE GAND-1182 was born about 984 in of, Gand, Flanders, Belgium. Arnoul married (1-MRIN:647) Lietgarde DE CLEVES-1183 about 1003 in of, Gand, East Vlaanderen, Belgium. Lietgarde was born about 987 in of, CLEVES, Germany. Index Name ID Generation , Thetburga 22S 4 BEC, Godefroy DE 9S 3 BOLOGNA, Ernicule II Comte 21S 4 BOULOGNE, Mahaud (Matilda) DE [COMTESSE DE GUI 10S 3 CLEVES, Lietgarde DE 23S 4 FAUCIGNY, Thietburge Mrs 18S 4 FLANDERS, Arnoul I, Count 1 1 FLANDERS, Arnoul II Count 7 3 FLANDERS, Baudouin III, Count 2 2 FLANDERS, Baudouin IV "Barbatus" 17 4 FLANDERS, Bertha, Countess of 8 3 FLANDERS, Egbert DE 3 2 FLANDERS, Elstrude DE [COUNTESS OF GUI 4 2 FLANDERS, Hildegard, Countess of 5 2 FLANDERS, Ledgarde DE [COUNTESS OF GAN 6 2 GAND, Arnoul Count DE 23 4 GAND, Hildegarde DE 15 3 GAND, Theodric DE [Count] 14 3 GAND, Wickmann (Wieman) I 6S 2 GAND, Wickmann DE 16 3 GENEVA, Gerold Count of 18 4 GENEVA, Gisela Countess of 18S 4 GERMANY, Otehilde Princess of 20S 4 GUISNES, Ardolph Count of 10 3 GUISNES, Heloise DE 9 3 GUISNES, Rudolph (Ralph OR 19 4 GUISNES, Sigefred Le Danois 4S 2 HOLLAND & WEST F, Dirk II Count 5S 2 HOLLAND & WEST F, Dirk III Count 20 4 HOLLAND & WESTFR, Arnulf Count of 13 3 HOLLAND, Aleida Countess of [COUNTESS OF PON 21 4 HOLLAND, Egbert Count of [ARCHBISHOP OF T 11 3 HOLLAND, Erlinda Countess of [ABBESS OF EGMON 12 3 HOLLAND, Hildegarde DE 14S 3 HOLLAND, Siegfried (Sicco) Count 22 4 ITALY, Rosele (Susanna), Princess [QUEEN OF FRANCE 7S 3 LUXEMBOURG, Liutgard Countess of 13S 3 LUXEMBOURG, Otgive DE 17S 4 NORMANDY, Eleanore DE 17S 4 PONTHIEU, Enguerrand I Count 21S 4 SAINT POL, Rosetta (Rosella) DE 19S 4 SAXONY, Mathilde Princess of [COUNTESS OF FLA 2S 2 VERMANDOIS, Adele (Alice, Alix) [COUNT OF FLANDE 1S 1 VEXIN, Valeran DE 5S 2 VIENNE, Aimon I, Count 8S 3 ****************************************************** Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > Hi Bruce ! > > >Does anyone have information on children > >of Baldwin III of Flanders, in particular > >Raoul de Gouy. > > Baldwin III, co-count of Flanders [with his father, whom he predeceased.], > b.ca 940, d.962; m.961 Matilda (d.1008) dau.of Duke Hermann Billung of > Saxony. > > His father was Ct Arnulf I "the Great" of Flanders, b.885/90, d.964; m.1st > NN; m.2d 934 Adele (d.960) dau.of Cte Heribert de Vermandois; all kids were > by the 2d marriage. > > Baldwin III and Matilda Billung had the following kids: > > 1.Arnulf II the Young, Ct of Flanders and Boulogne, b.961/2, d.987, bur > Ghent; m.ca 968 Rozela=Suzanna of Ivrea (d.1003). He was the ancestor of > Counts of Flanders & Hainaut, also probably (via his grandson Eudes, Count > de Cambrai) the ancestor of Counts de Saint-Pol and Counts de Brienne. > > 2.Jean de Conteville (John de Bourg), Earl of Comyn, Baron of Toursbourg, > b.ca.964/969. He was the ancestor of the family de Burgo/de Burgh (Viscounts > de Conteville, Counts de Mortain, Earls of Cornwall, Barons/Earls of > Connaught, Earls of Ulster, Lords of Warkworth). > > 3.Bertha of Flanders, b.ca.1008. > > I think that Raoul de Gouy was not a son of Baldwin III. The family de Gouy > had another ancestry - from Hucbald, Count de Ostervant. They were Counts de > Ostervant, Amiens, Vexin, Seigneurs de Crepy and Valois. Ostervant passed > from this family (by marriage of Adela de Vexin [dau.of Raoul III > "the_Great", of Valois de Crepi, Vitry, Amiens and Vexin] and Herbert IV, > Count de Vermandois) to the family de Vermandois, later (also by marriage > with Eleonore de Vermandois) to Geoffroy (1147-1163), grandson of Baldwin > III [Count of Flanders]. > > Another possible connection between 'de Flanders' and 'de Gouy' is via > Cambrai. One of branches of 'de Flanders' was the family of Counts de > Cambrai. Raoul I (d.944), Count de Valois & d'Amiens, son of Hucbald de > Osrevant [ancestor of 'de Gouy'] had nickname 'de Cambrai'. His son Raoul > (Ralph) de Gouy, fl.ca.926/933, Count of Ostervant, Valois and Vexin, was > married to Hildegarde of Flanders (b.ca.934-d.990), sister of Baldwin III. > Therefore Raoul was the brother-in-law (not son) of Baldwin III. Raoul and > Hildegarde were the ancestors of Counts of Ostrevant, Amiens, Valois and > Vexin, Viscounts de Tracy(Tracey), Lords of Sudeley(co.Gloucester), > Toddington (co.Gloucester), Chilvers Coton(co.Warwick) and Burton Dasset > (co.Warwick). > > regards, > aeg > > ______________________________________________________