Dear Bruce, JOHN CARPENTER was a member of the English Parliament in 1323 for the borough of Leskard in Cornwall, as was 2 years afterwards a Stephen Carpenter for Crediton in the county of Devon (ie in 1325). A Henry Carpenter served in 1418, for the town of Derby. Per Playfairs British Antiquities, London 1810. I guess this was not a name pulled out of a hat. Check it out your self. Sources were available to Amos B. Carpenter. He cites them starting on page one (1) of his work. As I pointed out before, there is other definitions to be used from the dictionaries based on the use at that period in time. Chaundeler can be a broker or trader (of gold, wool etc.) especially associated with the shipping trade. It has been proven that the French & English Carpenters were related and involved in such trading. The Carpenters of this time were well educated and well to do because the were nobles. The ancestry in the French line indicates this. You provided additional proof that ... "John's non-English origins are betrayed by the French version of his name in the original document. The quotation is extremely brief, stating name and occupation. It is from the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1272-128l. It is precisely dated May 12, 1273 under the heading "Licenses to Export Wool" and reads "Jean le Carpenter, merchant". From an E-Mail message dated 13 July 1999 By Bruce E. Carpenter. (Where to export - France!) Jean Le Carpentier (b. abt 1250)- Lord of Daniel et Avesnes les Aubert, Du Nord, France had a powerful father... Godefroy de Carpentier, Sire de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert ... who married Aleida Countess Holland. One of Godefroy's great grandchildren (Philippa) married on 24 Jan 1327 the newly crowned King Edward the Third of England. See: GENEALOGY OF THE DE CARPENTIER FAMILY OF HOLLAND BY EDWIN JAQUETT SELLERS, printed in PHILADELPHIA, PA in 1909. AND La chronique de Baudouin d'Avesnes Notice extraite du repertoire The Narrative Sources from the Southern Low Countries, 600-1500. See also: Longman, W., History of the Life and Times of Edward the Third, 2 vols. (1869; repr. 1979) MacKinnon, James, History of Edward the Third: 1327-1377 (1900; repr. 1974). Packe, M., King Edward III (1983). Later Bruce E. Carpenter wrote (27 July 1999): Jean le Carpenter was among a select group given the rights to export wool in 1273. Jean had to be a true `bigwig' with money going to all the right places, as had to be Sir John Carpenter with all his lands held from King Edward lll and consort Queen Philippa. Money and power! Money and power! History can be a better tool than strict genealogy. Even though in 1272 Edward the First became King of England with Eleanor of Castile, I agree that Jean le Carpentier had to be a 'bigwig' as the later Sir John Carpenter who held many lands (the same lands noted in the Domesday Book of 1097 by the way) from King Edward the Third and his wife, Queen Phillipa. Money and Power AND MIGHT I ADD FAMILY. Jean le Carpentier (b. abt 1303/1305 at de Grand Pont,Du Nord,France - He was a noble)or Sir John Carpenter (as he was known in England) and Queen Phillipa were SECOND COUSINS. Marriages for the King of England was arranged more for political reasons that anything else. History can be a better tool than strict genealogy by understanding how things worked AT THOSE TIMES. Has there been a document found that states John or Jean Carpentier is the father of Richard? At this time, none has been found. Did Maurice exist? Yes - according to French records. Did he have a son named Jean (John in England)? Yes. Did Maurice go to England? Yes. In the Samuel Carpenter book of 1912, page 4 is: "The most ancient coat of arms of the Carpenters has for the device in the field three cross crosslets, which appear in many pedigrees filed in the Herald office in London. These lines were located chiefly in the counties of Hereford and Gloucester. The arms borne by the Carpenters of Homme in Herefordshire show the three cross crosslets, and the same appears in a lineage of several generations commencing about 1300 with a Maurice Carpenter, or Carpender, Gent., in the County of Gloucester, and reported in the Herald Visitation in that county. These arms were also borne by the Earls of Tyrconnel, whose descent was through the Carpenters of Homme. Burke says that this family was of great antiquity in Herefordshire." If the line of Richard (b. abt 1335), John the elder(b. abt 1399)- (brother to John the younger), John the younger (b. abt 1410) to William of Homme (b. 1440) is true and the above statement from the Herald Visitation is true ... then it is reasonable to assume that a child of Maurice was the father of Richard. Since only two of Maurice's children have been found in the English Records, those being for; John OR Jean CARPENTIER (b. abt 1303) and for a Renaud OR Richard CARPENTIER (b. abt 1307). It is reasonable to assume that one of these two continued the line to be the father of Richard (b. abt 1335). Is there absolute proof? - NO. Is it a myth? - No because those people did exist historicaly. Is it the best guess? - Probably based on the knowledge we have at this time. So I say, let us NOT be rid of this venerable, but quite annoying best guess. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > The traditional history of the Carpenter family from a John Carpenter who > served in parliament for Leskard in Cornwall in the year 1323 began with > Amos Bugsbee Carpenter in the late 1800s. In the late 1800s English > historical records were still in manuscript and impossible to access. The > script they were written in was difficult to read. They were unindexed etc., > etc. > The 1323 John Carpenter was just a named fished out the pile. Now the great > number of documents unavailable to Amos Carpenter are now fully accessible > to us, and while respecting the efforts of Amos Carpenter, we can gain a > much clearer understanding of 14th century Carpenter history. > > Previous I had shown that Town Clerk Johns family was too powerful > economically to have come from a candle-makers family. There must have been > another, and a richer, Richard Carpenter in London. I discovered another > Richard in the prosperous neighborhood of Fleetstreet. This Richard > naturally had no trade associated with his name. Likewise I found a Robert > Carpenter in nearby Surrey, on the Thames River, with a suspicious proximity > to ships and trade. This Robert was a clerk like the Town Clerk John > himself. Clearly there was a Carpenter family of wealth and influence > existing in and around London in the later half of the 14th century. What > about the early 14th century? > > In the early 14th century documents I discovered two quite remarkable > Carpenter groups. One was centered about a Sir John Carpenter, a knight. Sir > John had extensive land holdings, and most of the documents I discovered > relating to him were will-related, after his demise. The exact residence of > Sir John was never revealed, although it was clear he had good property in > Berks, Herts and probably Oxfordshire and Wilts. He probably lived in all > those places. It is very tempting to equate this Sir John with the > traditional Leskard, Cornwall John. They are exactly contemporaneous. The > problem with with a Leskard, Cornwall John Carpenter as a progenitor of the > London Carpenters, was that Cornwall was so far from London, literally the > sticks. Who was this Cornwall Sir John Carpenter? I could find no reference > to him, while I found many references to a Sir John Carpenter with land next > to London. In addition this newly discovered John had no son Richard at the > time of his death, which was before and around 1339. Perhaps the two Johns > were identical and a son Richard died well before his father. Later > researchers appointed him as father of Town Clerk John. It is certain from > the documents that Sir John Carpenter had no male heirs at the time of his > death, all his worldly holdings passing to related women or his brother. > Could there have been two Sir John Carpenters in parliament in the early > 1300s? Doubtful I think. Can anyone find a real reference to a Sir John > Carpenter with a son Richard, a reference that is not just hearsay or IGI > mythology? > If not, let us be rid of this venerable, but quite annoying myth. > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter