Dear Bruce, Tis was an excellent brief! You are correct in stating that Richard Carpenter was a Chaundeler. This word comes from the French and denotes a trader or worker of gold. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:86 - --------------------------------------------- Name:Richard CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:4JG7-XG Birth:Abt 1335 Place:of London,Middlesex,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Christina-87 Death: 1395 Place: Burial: 1395 Place:St.Martin Church,Outwich,London,England Father:John OR Jean CARPENTIER Le-85 Mother:(CARPENTER)-4677 Notes ---------------------------------------------- Richard & Christina Carpenter were buried at The CHURCH OF ST. MARTIN, Ooutwich Bishop Gate St., London, England. A Goldsmith (Chaundeler) by trade. Buried under a pew. He possessed wealth for his day. BOOK: "A GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF THE REHOBOTH BRANCH OF THE CARPENTER FAMILY." BY Amos Bugbee CARPENTER in 1898, aka "THE CARPENTER MEMORIAL." SEE also: "GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK." LEWIS 1912. PAGE 1252 & 1317. At least two sons per the above records. AF has a third son "RICHARD" listed. However this may be in error since a Robert Carpenter has a son named Richard in the same time period. Additional information supplied by Raymond George Carpenter, American Genealogist for the American Family. His sources referenced are: "English Genealogist Harry F. Rogers, Bunise's various 19th century works; "Life of Lord George Carpenter" printed 1736; Play fair's Family Antiquities; and the Davis and Owen Perrage; Will of the Town Clerk of London." SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, 1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by this Richard's younger son, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the above, it lists that this "Richard was a chandler living in Billiter Lane in 1381. It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the younger's will. Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of the Church of St. Martin. The rolls of Parliment of the fifth Richard II, King of England, contains pardons where several Carpenters are noted being excepted from benefits. One is a Richard Carpenter of Billiter Lane in London. end notes. Does anyone have additional data about the John Le Charpentier who caused the death of Henry le Porte and was pardoned? About 1324 London? HISTORIC NOTE: King Edward the First ruled in England during this time and had expanded the meetings of leading nobles and church leaders to include Knights from the shires, other church leaders and represenatives from the towns. The first Model Parliament in 1295 set the pattern for future meetings and led to, in 1297, Edward agreeing that Parliment had the right to approve or disapprove taxes proposed by the King. John Carpenter became a member of the English Parliment in 1323, being the eldest son of Maurice in England. We can only suppose that Maurice Carpentier, by having his two eldest sons in the English and French goverments, did well financially. John, Maurice's son, was well educated and wealthy for their day as were his descendants. This indicates access to or in nobility. I'm glad to see your return to Carpenter Genealogy and insightful thoughts! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > After a brief vacation from Carpenter research I wish in this and subsequent > letters to solve the basic and all-important problem of who the Carpenters > were in 14th century England. It was this hundred-year period, that > culminated in Town Clerk John and his kinsman the Bishop of Worcester, that > established the family (clan), and allowed it to flourish in subsequent > centuries. In previous letters it was proven beyond doubt that the > Carpenters provided major financial backing to King Henry Vl and the > Lancastrian cause. It was also proven that the Carpenters possessed > impressive land and assets holdings. The problem remains unresolved as to > the generation prior to the above two great names in Carpenter history, in > particular as to Town Clerk John’s brothers Robert, John and their father > Richard, their origins and source of prosperity and wealth. > Town Clerk John’s father Richard presents us with an immediate problem with > the trade designation of ‘chandler that has been usually associated with > him. It has been suggested that this trade has a wider meaning than an > individual connected to candlemaking, a wider meaning extended to supplying > needed articles to ships. This explanation leaves me unsatisfied. I sense > that Richard Carpenter was much more a man of social standing and influence > than a ‘chandler’ could have been. I say this because important positions in > the London City government were associated with those with connections to > trade and specifically the export of wool. For example the Town Clerk’s > close friend, patron and predecessor John Whittyngton, was in charge of all > wool exports from England, in a merchant’s cartel called The Company of the > Merchants of the Staple. The > Merchants of the Staple had a monopoly over the export of wool which the > English crown, from export duties, lived on. The upper tiers of London city > government were entwined with the Merchants of the Staple. Well below the > wool merchants in wealth and social prestige were people formed into > ordinary guilds,or trade associations, like the cordwaners, drapers, vinters > chandlers and the like. (see Merchant Staplers in the Encyclopedia > Britannica) > There is another Richard Carpenter, other than ‘chandler’ Richard that seems > a more likely candidate. His name appears in a legal proceeding with several > individuals belonging to trade guilds. However Richard’s name is not > connected with any trade guild and he is designated as living in London’s > Fleetstreet, an area where other people who were extremely powerful socially > and financially lived. Richard I suspect belonged to the merchant’s guild. > There are additional references to a Richard who was a witness in court > proceedings indicating a powerful person living in proximity or somehow > connected to the court. This quote appears in the Close Rolls for Henry lV > in 1412. > > “Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery in November this > year by John Bulloke ‘skynner’, > John Ledys ‘cordwaner’, both of London, Richard Carpenter of ‘Fleetsreet’, > John Apulton ‘taillour’, John Stone Barbour’, John Fynche ‘Chaundeler’, John > Parker ‘armorer’ and John Wolfhart ‘habirdasher’ to have Nicholas Passyn > ‘goldsmith’ there from day to day until the court is dismissed.” > > This quotation involves money that a goldsmith owed to the long > list of individuals. Goldsmiths were the bankers of their days. People with > cash assets turned their money over to the goldsmiths before it was turned > in deeded assets like land etc. All the above people belonged to trade > guilds with the exception of Richard Carpenter who was of a profession above > theirs and not designated, as was the custom in official documents. Richard > had money to turn over to a goldsmith, yet he was not a tradesman. The other > people in the document were probably not representing themselves, but rather > they were representing their guild or trade groups. In other words > John Parker ‘armorer’ had given armorer trade association money to Mr. > Passyn the goldsmith for his safe keeping. Likewise Richard Carpenter could > very well have been representing a group of people, or corporate interest, > in this legal proceeding. Later when I discuss the Town Clerk’s possible > brother Robert, I will shed more light on this. > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter