Dear Bruce, I went into the box that had the material from my Dad's vacation. The materials on St. Peter Cornwall was the church he found the Carpenter inscription on the floor before the lectern. It reads Carpenter 1442. I thought I was positive it had been St. Martin. The St. Martin Church he visited was in Warwick. It too had a Carpenter buried there but from 1585. I forgot I had the will of John Carpenter, the younger and his wife Katherine in the copy of the Carpenter Memorial (1898) By Amos B. Carpenter. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > According to An Encyclopaedia of London the St. Martin > Outwich burned down and was rebuilt in 1727, then "In > 1874 the church was demolished" (p. 95).Could you recheck this information > from you dad, as I understand some memorial objects in St. Martin's were > moved to another church, St. Helen's Bishopgate. > I can see nothing wrong wit your birth dates of Town Clerk and father > Richard, although 1335 strikes me as > too early. However, there seems no doubt that Robert's > son Richard was a boy in 1441. > Sincerely, > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 9:11 AM > Subject: Re: Chaundelers and Chandlers #3 > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >My father was in England several years ago and visited The CHURCH OF ST. > >MARTIN, Ooutwich, Bishop Gate St., in London, England. On the floor was > >1395 with Richard Carpenter's name. > > > >Per the booklet "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" - John Carpenter the > >younger's will was made in his 70th year. This indicates his birth about > >1371/1372. He had two older brothers (no sisters mentioned) which means > >his parents could not have been born any earlier than 1350 (1372 -2 -2 = > >1368 -18 = 1350). I have 1335 as a guesstimate using a wider range and > >possible other children. John the elder born about 1360/1362 for > >example. > > > >This leaves the "other" Richard, son of Robert, of Richard and Christina > >Carpenter once again as a possibility. > > > >Let's keep brainstorming this! Maybe someone will come up with more > >records or insight. > > > >By the way, How long did you spend in Japan teaching? I have a friend > >who is thinking about teaching there. Can I give him your E-address? > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > > > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> John: > >> Happy to hear from you as always. The death date of > >> 1395 for Richard must surely be a modern estimate. Town Clerk John's will > of > >> 1441 states that his parents are dead and buried in Outwich. This > document > >> in no way > >> precludes Richard Carpenter being alive in 1412, the date of my > discovered > >> document.Likewise the birth date of Richard for 1335 is aalso a modern > >> estimate, an estimate > >> that probably is much too early. Again, Town Clerk John's > >> birth and death dates are entirely modern conjectures. If I were to > estimate > >> a daeth date for Richard, something close to 1420 would be reasonable. > >> Sincerely, > >> Bruce > >> Clinton, WA > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > >> To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 10:39 AM > >> Subject: Re: Chaundelers and Chandlers #2 > >> > >> >Dear Bruce, > >> > > >> >Continuing from the end of the last E-message ... > >> > > >> >If Richard Carpenter -86 (who married Christina) died in 1395, who was > >> >the Richard Carpenter noted in the November 1412 record? > >> > > >> >In searching my records I have ... > >> > > >> > > >> > +---¦Richard CARPENTER-86 > >> >Robert CARPENTER-14719 ¦ ¦Abt 1335 > >> >Abt 1368 ----------¦ ¦of London,Middlesex,England > >> >of London,Middlesex,England ¦ MRIN:18 > >> > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5247 +---¦Christina-87 > >> > ¦Abt 1335/1337 > >> > ¦of London,Middlesex,England > >> > --CHILDREN-- > >> >1. Alexander CARPENTER-23395 Abt 1389 > >> >2. Joan CARPENTER-14721 Abt 1390 > >> >3. Richard CARPENTER-4675 1392 > >> >4. Katherine CARPENTER-14722 Abt 1395 > >> >5. Henry CARPENTER-16314 Abt 1395 > >> > > >> >The notes for the Richard - 4675 above list: > >> >A Goldsmith by trade. In 1410, City of London Records indicate > >> >a Richard Carpenter and Johannes Norman, goldsmiths (Chaundelers?) > >> >sponsoring an orphan. Apparently this of one of many encouraged by this > >> >Robber's Grand-Uncle John Carpenter, the younger, the noted town clerk > >> >of London. > >> >SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, > >> >1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by > >> >this Richard's uncle, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the > >> >above, it lists that "Richard (gfather) was a chandler living in > >> >Billiter Lane in 1381. > >> >It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom > >> >nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two > >> >daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the > >> >younger's will. Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of > >> >the Church of St. Martin. > >> >end notes. > >> > > >> >This Richard (noted above) was born in 1392 and would have been about > >> >age 22 in November of 1412. Currently, until more data comes in, this > >> >was probably the Richard "of Fleetstreet" in 1412. > >> > > >> >While I am uncomfortable with this, it is logical. In 1410 this Richard > >> >Carpenter was known as a "goldsmith." But then in 1412 he was known as > >> >"of Fleetstreet." Could he have been a "gold chandler" or a broker for > >> >goldsmiths? > >> > > >> >What do you think? > >> > > >> >John R. Carpenter > >> >La Mesa, CA > >> > > >