Dear Bruce, You're Welcome. I concur that there was at least two family groups around London (probably with a few cousins from France) and at least one settled in Gloucester. Now regarding that material in France and in the "netherlands" to the north that you mentioned ... I have been making some inroads by contacting various researchers in France. Slowly bits and pieces come in. Later when more data come in, it changes the understanding abit. Thus it causes the organzation and ancestry possibly to change. Attached is the French Carpentier line (of about 20 generations), that I have put together (not all sources listed), starting with; Pierre Le CARPENTIER b. abt 1300 in de Grand Pont,Du Nord,France. I have also worked out the Melun line for some 22 generations after the time of William "the carpenter" De Melun using various books and records. One of the most helpful was ... !BOOK: "Europaische Stammtafeln, Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europaischen Staaten - Neue Folge - Herausgegeben von detlev Schwennicke - Band VII - Familien des alten Lothharingien II by Verlag Von J. A. Stargardt 1979 in Marburg, Germany. Book is in german. (European Royal Families - Band VII - Families of the old Lothharingien) The book has extensive Melun family lines but very few Carpenter/Carpentier lines. For example on Melun; Tafel 55. Les Melun I. "Adam Vicomte de Melun 1205/1254 (married mark) I NN (not known), (married mark) II Alice de Hayde, z Espernay-En-Normandie." That was for: Adam II DE MELUN CdM-20030 Abt 1205 Melun,Seine-et-Marne,IDF,France --SPOUSE-- MRIN:11131 Alice DE HAYDE-30825 Abt 1205 Espernay,IN,Normandy,France Books that refer to earlier Carpenters like; !BOOK: Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - by Gibbons vol. 4. "Earl of Melun slaughtered his opponents with a large axe, thus earning himself the nickname of "The Carpenter." !BOOK: THE NORMANS by R. Allen Brown 1984. St. Martin's Press, NY. ISBN: 0-312-57776-1 940.17 Brown. Page 130 and 131: At the Seige of Antioch, Syria about Feburary 1098 - "Nevertheless, as the seige wore interminably on and conditions worsened, and as the expectation of another relieving army under the powerful Kerbogha, 'atabeg' of Mosul, increased, morale began to crack in certain quarters and divisions to appear amongst the Christian leaders. There were desertions, real and suspected, both before and after the battle of the Lake of Antioch. Amongst them were Peter the Hermit (of all people) and William 'the Carpenter' (so called - he was a knight and Lord of Melun) who slipped away in January and were ignominiously caught and brought back by Tancred, Bohemond's nephew. The "Gesta Francorum" gives us a military scene, timeless across the ages, as the wretched William stood in Bohemond'd tent at first light, to have strip after strip torn off him by his commanding officer - 'You wretched disgrace to the whole Frankish army -- you dishonourable blot on all the people of Gaul! You most loathsome of all men whom the earth has to bear . . .' etc.54" 54 refers to a note on page 185: "54 Gesta Francorum, p. 33. William had evidently deserted once before, on an expedition against the Moors in Spain, an incident of which he was now forcefully reminded by the outraged Bohemond." Books like the above, refer to other books (like the "Gesta Francorum") and other records which help here and there. You yourself have helped with your finding on an old French encyclopedia that added a piece here and there. By putting these "references" together in one compiled work, The Carpenter CD Project," I hope to spark further research and questioning about the early part of the Carpenter Family. As "our" fencing has done. ;) Best Regards! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Thanks for your note. I certainly wouldn't discount a 1368 for Robert, even > with unmarried daughters in 1441. For Thomas, I think a Gloustershire > connection discounts him. My impression of the genealogical situation for > this period was that perhaps two Carpenter family groups existed in and > around London at this time. One group was very wealthy, well educated etc. > Another group was associated with trades. In other words there was a blue > collar Carpenter group and another white collar group. The two groups might > very well have been related. Still the two were very different, hence the > long standing > confusion over Richard Carpenter, that the tradesman Richard Carpenter was > Town Clerk's father. This always seemed to me unlikely and my own inadequate > research was an attempt to at least cast doubt on it. I think I succeeded. > Another matter that troubles me greatly is that there certainly exists a > great deal of material > on this family in French and in French/Belgian libraries. > If this material is not researched than any attempt at a history of this > family must be a failure, thus a wise choice for you is to begin your > genealogy of the family > around 1300, otherwise in a decade your efforts might appear completely > inadequate. > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 9:35 PM > Subject: Re: Town Clerk's Brother Robert > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >If in 1407, Robert is mentioned in "legal" papers, this means he should > >have been at least 21. (1407-21= 1376) This means he should have been > >born before 1376. The 1368 date other researchers have come up with is > >still in the ballpark. > > > >Also, don't forget: > >In 1422 a Robert Carpenter was deputed by the Brewers' Company to go > >with the Mayor to Gravesend and attend to the removal of weirs in the > >Thames. > > > >Regarding Thomas Carpenter: > > > >Thomas CARPENTER-44820 > >Abt 1355 > >of,Lydney,Gloucester,England > > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:15883 > > > > --CHILDREN-- > > 1-Henry CARPENTER-44821 > > 2-Richard CARPENTER-44822 > > 3William CARPENTER-44823 > > > >This Thomas was involved in ships and shipping. Bristol was the main > >ship building area in England at this time. He may have been the Thomas > >referred to in the 1407 Close Rolls you found. > > > >Thomas' ancestry is abit in question. > > > > Godefroy CARPENTIER Count de Avesnes-15424 > > B: Apr 1218 Selles Cambrai,Du Nord, France > > Jehan Le CARPENTIER b. abt 1250 Du Nord, France > > Rob. CARPENTIER b. abt 1275 Du Nord, France > > Robert CARPENTER b. 1303 Gloucester, England > > CARPENTER (name not ledgible) b. abt 1323 Gloucester > > Thomas CARPENTER b. abt 1355 Gloucestshire, > >England > >Keep digging up these jewels! We might pester you, but we love what you > >dig up! > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > > > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> The identity of Robert Carpenter, the brother of Town Clerk John, might > well > >> be revealed in the following legal documents. The nature of the cases is > >> not clear. However, we can safely assume they are property related, > families > >> with means trying to increase their holdings and influence. Interesting > is > >> the designation of clerk for Robert Carpenter. Those of us who have > read > >> Chaucer will remember the Clerks Tale. Clerks in the Middle Ages were > very > >> well known people indeed. The term clerk would be better rendered as > lawyer > >> , a clerk being half accountant, half lawyer in a society where > illiteracy > >> was common. Powerful interests were in real need of educated individuals > who > >> would take care of business. Clerks were educated at universities like > >> Oxford and other institutions. We can assume that anyone who was a clerk > >> came from a family of means, a family that could support a son through > his > >> course of education, for a career of clerkship for some powerful economic > >> organization, or family like an aristocratic one. The place in the > >> dispositions is Kyngeston upon Thames (modern spelling is Kingston on > >> Thames). In the same town is a Thomas Carpenter, relation unspecified. > >> Thomas has no specified trade connection, which is very interesting. The > >> proximity to the Thames is also suggestive that Robert and Thomas were > >> somehow connected to ships and trade. The town is also connected to the > >> crown. > >> > >> To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ, mutatis mutandis, by mainprise of > >> Thomas Grenewort, Robert Carpenter clerk, both of Kyngeston upon Thames, > >> John Stokes of Someset, and William Rason of Kyngeston upon Thames, in > favor > >> of Robert Rugge wever and Agnes his wife. (Close Rolls, 1407, June > 2nd) > >> > >> To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ. Mutantis mutandis, by mainprise of > John > >> Smart, Thomas Richard cordwaner, Thomas Glover and Thomas Avery > cordwaner > >> of Middlesex in favor of Thomas Carpenter of Kyngeston upon Thames, > Joan > >> his wife, Nicholas Fisshere of Kyngeston on Thames and Agnes his wife at > >> suit of John Prynce shoutman and alice his wife. (August 8th) > >