Dear Bruce, If in 1407, Robert is mentioned in "legal" papers, this means he should have been at least 21. (1407-21= 1376) This means he should have been born before 1376. The 1368 date other researchers have come up with is still in the ballpark. Also, don't forget: In 1422 a Robert Carpenter was deputed by the Brewers' Company to go with the Mayor to Gravesend and attend to the removal of weirs in the Thames. Regarding Thomas Carpenter: Thomas CARPENTER-44820 Abt 1355 of,Lydney,Gloucester,England --SPOUSE-- MRIN:15883 --CHILDREN-- 1-Henry CARPENTER-44821 2-Richard CARPENTER-44822 3William CARPENTER-44823 This Thomas was involved in ships and shipping. Bristol was the main ship building area in England at this time. He may have been the Thomas referred to in the 1407 Close Rolls you found. Thomas' ancestry is abit in question. Godefroy CARPENTIER Count de Avesnes-15424 B: Apr 1218 Selles Cambrai,Du Nord, France Jehan Le CARPENTIER b. abt 1250 Du Nord, France Rob. CARPENTIER b. abt 1275 Du Nord, France Robert CARPENTER b. 1303 Gloucester, England CARPENTER (name not ledgible) b. abt 1323 Gloucester Thomas CARPENTER b. abt 1355 Gloucestshire, England Keep digging up these jewels! We might pester you, but we love what you dig up! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > The identity of Robert Carpenter, the brother of Town Clerk John, might well > be revealed in the following legal documents. The nature of the cases is > not clear. However, we can safely assume they are property related, families > with means trying to increase their holdings and influence. Interesting is > the designation of clerk for Robert Carpenter. Those of us who have read > Chaucer will remember the Clerks Tale. Clerks in the Middle Ages were very > well known people indeed. The term clerk would be better rendered as lawyer > , a clerk being half accountant, half lawyer in a society where illiteracy > was common. Powerful interests were in real need of educated individuals who > would take care of business. Clerks were educated at universities like > Oxford and other institutions. We can assume that anyone who was a clerk > came from a family of means, a family that could support a son through his > course of education, for a career of clerkship for some powerful economic > organization, or family like an aristocratic one. The place in the > dispositions is Kyngeston upon Thames (modern spelling is Kingston on > Thames). In the same town is a Thomas Carpenter, relation unspecified. > Thomas has no specified trade connection, which is very interesting. The > proximity to the Thames is also suggestive that Robert and Thomas were > somehow connected to ships and trade. The town is also connected to the > crown. > > To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ, mutatis mutandis, by mainprise of > Thomas Grenewort, Robert Carpenter clerk, both of Kyngeston upon Thames, > John Stokes of Someset, and William Rason of Kyngeston upon Thames, in favor > of Robert Rugge wever and Agnes his wife. (Close Rolls, 1407, June 2nd) > > To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ. Mutantis mutandis, by mainprise of John > Smart, Thomas Richard cordwaner, Thomas Glover and Thomas Avery cordwaner > of Middlesex in favor of Thomas Carpenter of Kyngeston upon Thames, Joan > his wife, Nicholas Fisshere of Kyngeston on Thames and Agnes his wife at > suit of John Prynce shoutman and alice his wife. (August 8th)