Dear Bruce, I do not wish to start mud slinging over disagreements over data. You have sent me several messages requesting information or asking questions and asking me to let you help. Up to recently, I have been content to sit back and watch your findings. After your request to let you help, I have encouraged you to put your research data together for the benefit of all, even though you indicated you had no real plans for a book. I will endeavor to point out the noted problems then the main questions you have asked me to answer. This is a long message with your previous messages below. >From your original message (**) through your last three [ 1), 2) & 3) ] you show a pattern of speculation becoming a full statement without support either circumstantial or fact. As John Chandler would say, "circular reasoning." I have made my share of mistakes in the same manner. You indicate in message 1) that you found Carpenters in Ypres involved in the cloth trade. "Lippin and Piere." You speculate that "if a Ypres Carpentier (Maurice) shows up in England he should be a merchant on business." Your "if" indicates a possibility or theory. You later cite where you got this revelant data in message 3). In message 2) you have noticed that I have a son of Maurice is named Pierre. You speculate, "My data kind of suggests who my Piere was i.e. Maurice's son. Seems to me Maurice was a cloth merchant." You associate local with occupation and similarity of names as possible relations. You do well qualifying your speculation with "kinda of suggests" and "Seems to me." In message 3) you go to the statement that Maurice's son, Jean Le Carpentier born in France about 1304 (I have about 1303/1305 de Grand Pont,Du Nord,France) "can be demonstrated to be wholly implausible." Then you indicate that there was a Carpenter (Carpentier) family who resided in Ypres and you later cite your source. "A son of Maurice Carpenter, Pierre Carpentier was a textile manufacturer at the time (drapier a Ypres)." You now have implied that you have found a connection between Maurice and Pierre who was a "drapier." If so, please cite. You have demonstrated in message 1) a "Lippin and Piere" involved in the cloth business in Ypres but speculate Maurice was involved in the same business. You have associated the son of Maurice named Pierre with the Piere in the record you found and made them the same person. Then you declare that, "Pierre had to be a grown man in order to manage a family and a textile making business. A safe estimate puts his birth at least when the birth of Maurice was in 1280." You then declare Maurice should have been born earlier circa 1250 "or much earlier." You do not allow for the possibility of other people named Pierre or Piere (Pierre was a common name) to be in your theory but assume the relation of Piere to be a grown man thus Maurice had to be older. Now to answer some of your questions in message 3) and 2). Lastly in message 3) you state "Why would a fifty-year-old, or much older man, be doing living in England in 1300, with a new family, while the rest of his old family stayed behind?" Please notice that Maurice has gone from born about 1275/1280 in my records to your 1250 on the speculation noted above. >From the data (specifically from the notes) I sent you (and others) on Maurice is: !HISTORIC NOTE: After King Phillip III (who ruled from 1270 to 1285) was King Phillip IV (who ruled from 1285 to 1314). King Phillip IV, "The Fair" was a handsome man for his time and had much public support. He was able to put a French Archbishop in as Pope in 1305. Pope Clement V moved to Avignon, France in 1309 and carried out the King's orders, which included suppressing the Knights Templars. King Phillip IV was not as successful at war however, having lost against the English in 1294 and the Flanders (now Belgium) in 1302. He died in 1314. Much political confusion reigned over the next few years during King Louis X rule of 1314 to 1316 and King John I rule in 1316. By the time King Phillip V came to rule in 1316 much of the turmoil caused many Lords and Nobles to flee to England. This is the time period that Maurice left France for England (about 1314-1316) leaving his eldest child in France to continue the Lordship. King Phillip V ruled from 1316 to 1322 followed by Charles the IV who died without an heir in 1328. King Edward the First ruled in England at this time (early 1200s) and had been a supporter of King Phillip IV. He was succeeded by Edward the Second. 1314 was a bad year for both Kings, one died and Edward II lost his and his father's 18 year attempt to conquer Scotland at the disastrous Battle of Bannockburn. King Edward, the Third, laid claim to the French Crown after King Charles IV died without an heir when he became King in 1327. This began the so called Hundred year war with France (officially or actually lasting from 1337 to 1453 even though English troops were in Normandy in the early 1330s). end section from notes. Please notice the phrase, "Much political confusion reigned over the next few years during King Louis X rule of 1314 to 1316 and King John I rule in 1316. By the time King Phillip V came to rule in 1316 much of the turmoil caused many Lords and Nobles to flee to England." Then the next line, "This is the time period that Maurice left France for England (about 1314-1316) leaving his eldest child in France to continue the Lordship." Maurice was probably playing both ends of the "political game." He may have left France to watch over his "holdings" in England while his older son watched over the "holdings" in France. The Maurice in France and the Maurice in England are believed to be the same person, but this has not been positively proved. Now where did I get that a Maurice was born about 1280 in France and his family? Under "SOURCE:" is ... J. Hatton Carpenter's "The Carpenter Family" in The Utah Genealogical Magazine, Vol. 16, pp. 60-70. Joseph Hatton Carpenter spent many years in England and France carrying around notebooks. Every where he found Carpenters in England and France recorded he wrote them down in one of those notebooks. He collected some estimated 10 to 15,000 names. Many of these have been entered into the IGI. (Joseph H. Carpenter is my RIN 49491.) After Joseph Hatten Carpenter's death on 10 Dec 1964, he was not quite 103 years old, his notebooks and records were given to various descendants. Some of these notebooks have been microfilmed and some have been lost. I have been lucky enough to photocopy some of these notebooks. The ones that I have contain names, dates and places where he got the data. While Joseph H. Carpenter did not make the association with Maurice in France and England to my knowledge, the data was there in his records. If you are interested in gathering more data on Joseph H. Carpenter see: BOOK: Jenson, Andrew. Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia: A Compilation of Biographical Sketches of Prominent Men and Women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 4 vols. A. Jenson History Company and Deseret News, 1901-36. Vol. 2. Carpenter, Joseph Hatten Page 561. (In this it describes Joseph and his brother George as ...) ... These two brothers are the representatives in the United States of the Somerset [p.563] County Carpenters of England, who were yeoman and lived since 1687 at Bradford-on-Tyne, near Taunton, Sommerset, and were a younger branch of the Hereford Carpenters, who lived at Dilwyn, Hereford, before 1300 A. D., and whose ancestor fought in the crusades for the recovery of the Holy Land from the Saracens and Turks, as their armorial bearings and crest will indicate. end note section. I hope this covered the areas you requested. Please keep the research you find coming. It helps everyone on this part of the puzzle. I also encourage you to put your finding in an article or book format for future researchers. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA ******************************************************** 3) Subject: Maurice Carpenter Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:35:42 -0700 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com Maurice Carpenter, thought to be born in Ypres in abt. 1280, and the thought to be father of a Jean le Carpenter born abt. 1304 in France who is alleged to have died aft. at Dilwyn in Herefordshire, can be demonstrated to be wholly implausible. There was actually a Carpenter (Carpentier) family who resided in Ypres at the time.Their names, social status and professions are extant to be studied. A son of Maurice Carpenter, Pierre Carpentier was a textile manufacturer at the time (drapier a Ypres). A relative, Lippin le Carpentier, was a burgomaster of the city itself, an important position to be sure, and an indication of the prestige and wealth the Ypres Carpenters enjoyed. Pierre had to be a grown man in order to manage a family and a textile making business. A safe estimate puts his birth at least when the birth of Maurice was in 1280. In actuality Maurice had to be born at least near 1250, or much earlier. Another objection to Maurice is a common sense one. Why would a fifty-year-old, or much older man, be doing living in England in 1300, with a new family, while the rest of his old family stayed behind? The origins of the Maurice connection to Carpenter history began when in 1912 Edward Carpenter included a Maurice Carpenter or Carpendar from Gloucester in his book Samuel Carpenter and His Descendants. This Maurice comes from a notation in a Heralds Visitation; he is just a name with no historical connections. I have never seen the name Maurice Carpenter in the hundreds of books that I have looked through. I am sure the two Maurices lived, but they are hardly the same people. My own source for Ypres Carpentiers is, Histoire Industrie Drapiere Flandre, Bruxelles, 1924. Bruce Carpenter 2) Subject: re. Pierre Carpentier Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:06:38 -0700 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> To: "John R. Carpenter" <jrcrin001@home.com> John: Sorry to bug you, but I saw that you had a French record of Maurice's son was a Pierre. My data kind of suggests who my Piere was i.e. Maurice's son. Seems to me Maurice was a cloth merchant. I would appreciate any information you have on what and where that French record was and is. BC 1) Subject: re. Pierre Carpentier Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:06:38 -0700 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> To: "John R. Carpenter" <jrcrin001@home.com> Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > One more note before I forget. About Maurice. > I did find names of Carpenters in the cloth trade > in Ypres for 1300. You estimate Maurice's birth > 1275. One of Carpentiers was a burgher of the city (Lippin > le Carpentier) and the other (Piere le Carpentier) a cloth > manufacturer. Lippin was in the business also. > This says there was a substantial number of Carpenters > there because you wouldn't be a burgher or an important > manufacturer without a local family network in "le moyen age". > If a Ypres Carpentier (Maurice) shows up in England > he should be a merchant on business. > BC > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com>; Tony & Gil > Carpenter <tony.c.@skynow.net> > Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: Important Discovery 2 > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >Late Medieval Genealogy is not an exact science. Much of the data has > >to be translated correctly and interpreted in that time's mores and > >foibles. Add to the variations of the "Victor" writing the history and > >it gets "fuzzy." > > > >The connection between William "the carpenter" DeMelun through Richard > >and Christina in London is not a proven fact. It is speculation or the > >best guess with the material on hand. > > > >Yes there are records saying X was the son of father of Y and related to > >Z. However the connection bringing Maurice from France into England HAS > >NOT BEEN PROVED. We have two Maurices with similar families on both > >sides of the English Channel. We surmise or guess they are the same > >person. > > > >A few generations beyond Maurice is another stumbling block. A few more > >beyond that is another. These speculations have always been in the > >notes and explanations I give to people. > > > >I fully expect to have people (like you and others) to present new data > >that will change how the puzzle looks. Every little bit helps. I truely > >would love to have dozens of Carpenter Researchers gathers bits and > >pieces on the early lines of the Carpenters. No doubt the puzzle > >contains stories and lines we have not even thought about yet! > > > >You are presenting helpful data to all Carpenters a piece at a time. If > >you write an article or book on your research, you compile that data > >into one source. > > > >That is the basic "why" of the Carpenter CD Project ... To gather > >together the various parts of the Carpenter Family with research data > >FOR FUTURE CARPENTER RESEARCHERS. This means the good, the bad and ugly > >parts of the family. In doing so, you help everyone! > > > >Amos Bugbee Carpenter did an amazing job with his Carpenter Memorial > >published in 1898. Does it contain mistakes and ommissions? YES! > >Carpenter Researchers are finding errors in some manner all the time. > > > >Will the Carpenter CD Project have mistakes? Damm right it will. > >Regardless of how much effort I and others put into it, there will still > >be mistakes. > > > >I encourage you to compile the data you are finding. State the facts > >you find and list your best guess how they fit. Remember to state your > >rational for future readers and researchers. They might use your facts > >but not the same interpretation because they have new data. > > > >If you follow this very basic formula - it can not but help others! > > > >I wish you the best of Luck in researching. I wish I had more time and > >money to do so. My main focus is the compiling of the Carpenter CD for > >the deadline at the end of the year 2000. I only have so much time and > >energy to go around. > > > >Until next time Cousin! > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA USA > > > >** > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> John: > >> I have no real plans to write > >> a book, but as we are beginning to see > >> a really good one could be. That person > >> would need good French, good Latin, a good historical > >> education, money, time and good writing skills. > >> I hope it is becoming clear that this > >> story is more complicated, and more interesting, > >> than many people had realized. This is my only > >> object. I worry about you and your CD, John. It > >> pains me to think your Carpenter history pre 1450 > >> will be flawed. I have tried everything > >> short of hitting you over the head about it. Why don't > >> you let me help you? > >> BC > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > >> To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > >> Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 9:44 AM > >> Subject: Re: Important Discovery > >> > >> >Dear Bruce, > >> > > >> >When do you plan to have your book out? > >> > > >> >Curious, > >> > > >> >John R. Carpenter > >> >La Mesa, CA > >> > > >> >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Just found was a longish document listing > >> >> John Carpenter and Robert Carpenter, brothers of Town Clerk John, as > >> >> tennants > >> >> of Thomas, Duke of Gloucester in the reign of King Richard II. > >> >> To those of you Carpenters not yet bored by the subject, > >> >> this is an unbelievable find with all kinds of economic > >> >> details and political implications. Before I post it > >> >> please read again what I found and said about > >> >> Carpenters in the reign of Richard II re. the arrests of > >> >> carpenters and their allignment to Lancastrian interests, Warwickshire > >> >> Beauchamps and Duke of Gloucester Thomas. > >> >> BC