Dear Bruce, I can not change what I found in Joseph H. Carpenters notebooks. It was very clear that Maurice of Ypres born about 1280 had the following children in De Grand Pont: Maurice le CARPENTIER-1407 Abt 1275/1280 Ypres,West Vlaanderen,F,Belgium --SPOUSE-- MRIN:511 (not listed) --CHILDREN-- 3Pierre le CARPENTIER-13035 4John OR Jean CARPENTIER le-85 5Renaud OR Richard CARPENTIER-13037 6-Alix OR A CARPENTIER le-13056 7-Mehant le CARPENTIER-13034 The following children are temporary connections only to Maurice: --CHILDREN-- 1-Stephen CARPENTER-16313 2-Henry CARPENTER-36558 Only John or Jean and Richard or Renaud are found in the English Gloucester record with the father as Maurice Carpender, Gent. of Gloucester. The earliest Maurice could have been born is about 1275 instead of 1280. This would put his youngest son born about 1293 at the earliest. I have about 1300 in my data. The data I have from Joseph H. Carpenter indicates Selles Cambrai, Du Nord, France as the earliest area. Siger and his brother Godefroy became the sires of de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert, Du Nord, France. Some of Godefroy's descendants became Lords of Daniel et Avesnes les Aubert, Du Nord, France. One of his sons (or less likey Siger's) named Jean le Carpentier born about 1250 was noted as a Lord of Daniel and later of Tillent Lambert,Belgium then part of Flanders. That Jean le Carpentier is another one of those stumbling blocks I mentioned. He has three children listed in Joseph H. Carpenter's notebook. Unfortunately, that photo copy (like many) is blurred and hard to read. I believe it indicates M?ur???, Ed???d?? and J???n or Maurice, Edward and John. I'm sorry that Pierre of Maurice does not seem to fit the Ypres one. As a side note I have some of Pierre le Carpentier's descendants through Anselot (known as from near Cambrai) as the Lords of Maire near Brillon, Du Nord, France. Jean le CARPENTIER b. abt 1400/1404 became the Mayor of Dinant,Namur,Belgium and was Lord of Maire,near Brillon,DN,France. Then Messenes,W. Flanders,Belgium comes for several generations going into the early 1500s. I agree that Maurice is a critical link in my data. The Maurice in France and the Maurice in England probably are the same ones, but they have not been proven as the same person. It is just speculation. A lot more work needs to be done in the French record research for those Carpentiers of the Du Nord region of present day France. Keep on checking those records. You may find a gold mine of information on the early Carpenters that will change everything and rewrite the book! A Rehoboth cousin, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA PS Below comes the introduction to the Sellers 1909 book. You can see the similar places mentioned above in the below. !BOOK: GENEALOGY OF THE DE CARPENTIER FAMILY OF HOLLAND BY EDWIN JAQUETT SELLERS. Printed in PHILADELPHIA, PA in 1909. EDITION LIMITED TO ONE HUNDRED COPIES. PRESS OF ALLEN, LAMB & SCOTT PHILADELPHIA. INTRODUCTION Although the family (CARPENTIER) treated of In this work has not been definately traced beyond Pierre de Carpentier of Messen, Flanders yet its origin - appears in "Histore dc Cambray et du Cambresis, par Jean le Carpentier," published at Leyden, 1664, vol. II, page 369: "Since the year 1166 the family is known in the archives of the Abbey of Vauchelles to which much assistance was rendered by Barthelemy and Renaud Carpentier issue of Roger, Sire de Gouy, as we learn from the Tournament of Auchin in the year 1096. Siger Carpentier and Godefroy, descended from the said Renaud, were held in high esteem in Cambray and adjacent parts about 1200. Siger gave, among others, the tithes of Attiche to the Abbey of Cisoing in the year 1265, as can be seen in the archives of that place. He was Seigneur de Vannes and one of the most eminent knights of his time and laid the foundation for a fair posterity, which settled in French Flanders, through his marriage with Berthe Dame en Arquenghem by whom he had a son named Anseau whose descendants maintained themselves with glory and fame as late as the year 1400, when some of them, because of disfavor, were obliged to retreat to France, where, to the present day, they keep up the rank of their ancient nobility and are Seigneurs de Berthier, de Crecy, de Machy, de Ratilly de Marigny, etc. "This House possessed in the Netherlands, where the main branch has been extinct for nearly a century, the Seigneuries de Vannes, d' Avesnes lez Obert, du petit Ribecourt, de Maire, de Hamarree, de Tilloy, de Waignou, d'Aumont, de Flechinet, etc. It gave a bishop to Chartres and an abbot to St. Vaast in Arras; an almoner to Robert, Count de Flanders; governors to Therouane, grand bailiffs to Courtray; counsellors and gallant captains for armies to emperors, kings and princes, and even governors to newly discovered and conquered countires of the United Netherlands, etc. It has distinguished itself through brilliant alliances by marriage with many noble houses. Some of the descendants of the aforesaid Godefroy de Carpentier, Sire de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert (benefactor of the Abbey of Vaucelles according to a title of the year 1280, and brother of the aforesaid Siger, Sire de Vannes), left for England and Holland, where they bear different arms, although descended from the same house which recognizes as its originators of the ancient and illustrious Seigneurs de Gouy or Goy, who are so renowned in the archieves of the abbies of St. Vaast d'Arras, Mont St. Elloy, Honnecourt, Mont St. Martin, etc., since the year 1036, which is mentioned by Andre Du Chesne in his genealogical works. "Of this house was Jean le Carpentier, Treasurer- General of the Emperor Charles the Fifth, who by Marguerite de Langhe, daughter of Jean, had a daughter named Jeanne le Carpentier, who married Matthieu de Keinooghen, son of Jean Escuyer and Barbe d'Espelghem, who was father of Marie de Keynooghem married to Adrian van der Goes." end Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Let me clarify my thoughts on Maurice Carpenter. He is a crucial link in > your early Carpentier history from the continent > to England. You have maintained that evidence exists establishing that Ypres > Maurice had a son Pierre. Recently I found historical records of Ypres > Carpenters and one was a Pierre. An immediate conclusion I came to was this > was Pierre the son of Maurice. The other Pierre you identify lived many > miles away from Ypres. The Pierre from the new data gives a much more > probable son for Maurice. The evidence that indicates Ypres Pierre was a > grown man in 1300, would then put Maurices birth a good many years earlier > than you thought. Consequently I wrote to you asking for the documentary > source of your Ypres Pierre and father Maurice, since I only have your word > that a Maurice lived in Ypres and had a son Pierre. > My own reading of my data on the Flemish Carpenters (I had hoped to present > this at a later date), seemed clearly to show that the main family was > situated in Douai near Arras, and that the Ypres Carpenters were a small > family group, thus lessening the chances of more than one Pierre. This was > actually the reason for my enthusiasm over the Ypres Carpenter data. It > seems doubtful there was more than one Pierre. > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter