Dear Bruce, I hope you are recording and documenting where you find all these unique Carpenters. And I hope you will share all what you find. To find additional data on Adam Carpenter and his wife Agnes Carpenter would be first rate. I would still like to see how you linked Adam to John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. Can you show us? Adam was the son of Ailric and the grandson of Ralph in my records. Ralph had a grandfather named William, but no brothers named William that I found. Can you please share those records that show Ralph and William as brothers or father and son? Also interesting is the relationship between Ralph and Adam, can you post the documents of how and when they imported wine into England? Also any export data? This would be a great find and very interesting! You indicated that "Adam had a son Galfridus who was part of the Lincolnshire Carpenters. The Lincolnshire Carpenters can be tracked right into London of the 1300s." Can you please share this data? It would help considerably in understanding the Carpenters of that time. I hope you will share all those chronological land-buys and land-rents you find and the other pieces of the puzzle! Also if you post the record in latin, the members of the Carpenter Forum can find someone to help translate. All of us might help with pieces of the puzzle. Please post as much as you find on Carpenters. It helps everyone! Thanks again! Your Rehoboth Carpenter cousin, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ************************************************************ Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > I have encountered your first Adam and wife Agnes (I > recall seeing him and must check again).I recall he > seemed a trade-carpenter. Your second one may be the Adam > I have discussed. Your data may be from a land aquisition. The Adam > I am discussing left a chronological trail > of land-buys and land-rents from Norfolk to > Herefordshire from 1225 to 1250. We are talking > 'manum domini regis' class land aquisitions. He has to > be the same individual. Ralph appears aquiring land > in Norfolk, Surry and > Herefordshire at the same time. Were Adam and Ralph brothers or > father/son ? Ralph had a brother William who in turn had > a son John. Another possibility is Ralph and William > were father and son. Adam had a son Galfridus who was > part of the Lincolnshire Carpenters. The Lincolnshire > Carpenters can be tracked right into London of the 1300s. > Lincolnshire Gilbert Carpenter (merchant) can > be seen in the same legal document with Richard Carpenter > in 1360s. Gilbert was of course long gone by 1360. > This is post plague London and Richard > had interest in several properties which can > be documented. Richard's exact relation to Gilbert is not > known. Uncle? These same Lincolnshire Carpenters move their commercial > activities into York. > A good deal of this material is in Latin and I am sure there > are many excellent clues that I am missing. It may be > a long time before I can account for it all. I am still > collecting. The Oxford material promises to reveal a lot. > > BC > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com>; Tony & Gil > Carpenter <tony.c.@skynow.net>; Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius@flash.net>; > John L. Carpenter <familysearcher@mailcity.com>; Bette Butcher Topp > <toppline@cet.com> > Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 12:30 PM > Subject: Re: Carpenter mills 2 > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >I need some clairfications on your last memo to the Carpenter forum. > >This starting with Adam and Ralph Carpenter in the early 1200s. > > > >First, RE: Adam ... > > > >I have two Adam Carpenters in that time period. > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:13036 > >----------------------------------------------- > > Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > > Birth:Abt 1200 Place:Christburneford,Dorset,England > > Chr: Place: > > Marr: Spouse:Agnes CARPENTER-13063 > >Father:Ailric CARPENTER-13062 Mother: > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:34956 > >---------------------------------------------------- > > Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > > Birth:Abt 1225 Place:of Coventry,Warwickshire,England > > Chr: Place: > > Marr: Spouse:Unknown > >Father:Hugh CARPENTER-34584 Mother: > >Hugh being the son of Jordan (b. 1165) Carpenter-34588 and the grandson > >of William (b. abt 1130) Carpenter-34551. William (34551) is the fourth > >William from William "the carpenter" De Melun. > > > >Which Adam can be linked and how to John Carpenter to the Town Clerk of > >London? > > > >The reason I ask is I know of only two possible lines of approach from > >Godwin to John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. > > > >Previously it was believed to be through Godwin then Ralph in England to > >Ailric, then Adam to Elgan then back to France to Siger then JEAN to > >Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John the > >younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. > > > >The current theory is that it is more direct (staying in France) through > >Godwin then Reynaud then Jean then Godefroy (brother of Siger) then to > >JEAN to Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John > >the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. > > > > +---¦William CARPENTER-28699 > >Godwin CARPENTER-16311 ¦ ¦Abt 1067/1068 > >Abt 1100 -------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France > >of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France > >MRIN:10394 > > --SPOUSE-- > >MRIN:5862 > >--CHILDREN-- > > 1Reynaud OR Richard CARPENTIER-47915 > > 2Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 > > > >If you can show which one or another Carpenter line is probable, I would > >be very grateful. > > > >SECOND - Back to Adam and Ralph you mentioned. Re: Ralph Carpenter ... > > > >I only have one Ralph or Raulf in my records. He is listed as the father > >of Ailric and the grandfather to one of the Adams above. > > > >Ralph Carpenter was found in the Yorkshire Pipe Rolls in 1175. It is > >believed that he tried to regain some lands in Norfolk and Suffolk that > >was taken by King Edward II because of his father and uncle supporting > >King Stephen. After or during service for the King in Yorkshire, and > >for his continued support of the King he was later given some land in > >Norfolk. > > +---¦Godwin CARPENTER-16311 > >Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308¦ ¦Abt 1100 > >Abt 1135 --------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France > >of,Yorkshire,England ¦ MRIN:5862 > > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5675 > > > > --CHILDREN-- > > 1Ailric CARPENTER-13062 > > 2-Hugh CARPENTER-28077 > > 3Robert CARPENTER-16310 > > 4-Alice CARPENTER-51170 > > 5-Joan CARPENTER-51171 > > > >Do you have documents listing Adam and Ralph imported wine into England > >from France? Also the export data? This would be a great find! > > > >Thanks for the confirmation on the two daughters of Ralph (Alice and > >Joan). Keep bringing this stuff in! > > > >The William Carpenter you found in Ireland was probably the son of ... > > > > +---¦Adam CARPENTER-13036 > >Alexander CARPENTER-13061 ¦ ¦Abt 1200 (son of Ailric) > >Abt 1215 --------------¦ ¦Christburneford,Dorset,England > >of Conral,,Ireland ¦ MRIN:4557 > > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:18210 +---¦Agnes CARPENTER-13063 > > ¦Abt 1199 > > ¦of,Northampton,England > > > >Alexander was noted of Conral, Ireland and held land there. Later when > >that line died off, the Carpenters in England probably used the common > >family ancestry to reclaim land under the title "Baron of Killaghy" > >which was granted for faithful service in 1719. > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:11685 > >---------------------------------------------- > >Name:George CARPENTER Lord Sex:M ID No: > >Birth:10 Feb 1657 Place:Ocle Pychard,Hertfordshire,England > >Chr: Place:Baron,of Killaghy,Ireland > >Marr: 1693 Spouse:Alice CAULFIELD-11739 > >Death:10 Feb 1731 Place: > >Burial:Abt 10 Feb 1731 Place:Owsebury near,Westchester,H,England > >Father:Warncomb CARPENTER-11684 Mother:Elizabeth OR E TAYLOR-19790 > > > > > >Keep the material coming in, it's GREAT! > > > >Sincerely, > > > >Your Rehoboth Carpenter Cousin, > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > >***************************************************** > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> The following is an important document in the history of the early > Carpenter > >> family in England. The two earliest Carpenters of this line, that likely > >> originated in Flanders, were Adam and Ralph Carpenter. Early in the 1200s > >> they begin their land acquisition activities in Kent, Norfolk and > >> subsequently into Hereford. Descendants of Adam were active in > Lincolnshire > >> and can be linked to John Carpenter the Town Clerk of London. This family > >> group brought major capital into England in the early 1200s, which > enabled > >> them to attach themselves to powerful interests and persons. They can be > >> seen importing wine for the royal household by 1300, as well as holding > >> export privileges for wool. One of their numbers was a burgess of > Bordeaux > >> (Elias Carpenter) in Gascony, and himself was a controlling power in wine > >> production and export from that English possession in France. The > document I > >> wish to introduce here connects the above Ralph Carpenter to Rodger le > Bigod > >> (1245-1306), fifth Earl of Norfolk and marshal of England. The > interesting > >> detail in this document is the mention of “a mill with land adjoining”. > This > >> mill was most probably a fulling mill for raw wool. During this period in > >> English history the powerful, including the king himself, controlled all > the > >> production facilities for wool and many other products. The early > Carpenters > >> used their continental money to basically rent land for all stages of > wool > >> production. They also controlled facilities for the production of > finished > >> cloth itself in the Flemish cloth producing cities like Douai and Ypres, > for > >> export back to England and other European destinations. From ANCIENT > DEEDS, > >> vol. 1, A 532, p. 63. > >> > >> “Release by Alice, daughter of Ralph Carpenter, and Joan her sister, for > >> 40s., to Rodger le Bigod, Earl Marshal, of a mill with land adjoining in > >> Lammers. Witnesses:-Sir Laurance de Scaccario, Sir Ralph de Wascoyl, John > de > >> Wascoyl, Peter de Pelham, and others (named) A.D. 1225-70.” > >> > >> While I am on the subject of mills, I would like to present another > related > >> document. It deals with mills belong to the King himself in Ireland in > 1290. > >> The William le Carpenter mentioned in this information cannot at this > time > >> be connected to Carpenters back in England. However the Charpenter group > was > >> active in Ireland, a place profoundly involved with wool production at > the > >> time. In another document this William Carpenter is described as ‘the > King’s > >> ‘serjeant’, the meaning of which was completely different from modern > >> definitions of serjeant. Serjeants were not of the noble class, yet held > >> land and privilege from the King on the same level as a noble. Many of > the > >> names of these Ireland Carpenters match those of Carpenter merchants in > >> England. The William in the following disposition is seen as holding the > >> King’s property rights for a limited period. We can assume that he went > to > >> Ireland and subsequently left after the expiration of his tenure. The > mills > >> mentioned could also be fulling mills. I say this because like the above > >> document, the mention of mills is given prominent mention, as if the > mills > >> were the central reason for the property that surrounded them. From > CALENDAR > >> OF DOCUMENTS RELATING TO IRELAND, Dec. 27, 1290, no. 827. > >> > >> “ The King confirms the grant made by letters patent under the seal of > the > >> Exchequer of Dublin, by the Treasurer and Barons of that Exchequer, to > >> William le Carpenter, of the King’s mills, houses, and lands of > Chapelizod, > >> to hold for a term of ten years, and rendering at that Exchequer, As > William > >> was wont to render, 31 marks a year, one moiety at Easter and the other > >> moiety at Michaelmas.” > >> > >> As a final note, no reference was made to Carpenters in Scotland. > >> > >> Bruce Carpenter