Dear John, I am very glad you cleared this up on locations. I was going to go to the FHC to check the detail map of the local. "Perpetual vicar" can also mean a lay person in charge of a vacant church or one that only has a visiting Priest. In the late 1400s there was a shortage of Roman Catholic Priests in England. Roman Catholic Priests, Bishops and evena Vicar General was common in this line. See William of Homme notes below and that of two of his sons. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:91 - ---------------------------------------------- Name:William CARPENTER William of Homme Sex:M ID No:8LC0-35 Birth:Abt 1440 Place:Homme,Hertfordshire,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:(CARPENTER)-700 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:Abt 1520 Place:of,Dilwyne,Herefordshire,England Burial:Abt 1520 Place:of,Dilwyne,Herefordshire,England Father:John the younger CARPENTER-90 Mother:(CARPENTER)-702 Notes ----------------------------------------------- partial notes ... !WILLIAM OF HOMME RESIDED IN PART OF DILWYNE, HEREFORDSHIRE, ENGLAND PER 1898 BOOK. SEE ALSO GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK BY LEWIS 1912. PAGE 1252 AND 1317. PAGE 1317 GIVES BIRTH ABOUT 1480 INSTEAD OF 1440. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE REAL "WILLIAM OF HOMME" WAS THE SON OF THIS WILLIAM? !AKA: William of Hereford. !This William of Homme is the common ancestor of our Carpenter Family in America. Coat of Arms is a common way of tracing lineage. The arms granted to Lord George Carpenter in 1719, as published in the account of his life (The Life and Times of Lord George . . .) were Pally of six, argent and gules on a chevron, azure,three cross crosslets, or. CREST, on a wreath a globe in a frame all or. Supporters, two horses, party-perfess, embattled argent and gules. MOTTO: "Per Actua Belli" (Through the Asperities of War). John the Elder, Bishop, granduncle to this William, had the same Coat of Arms. The same arms, less the supporters and motto, were used by the Herefordshire Carpenter family and were emblazoned in a glass window of the college and church at Westbury upon Trin as early as 1443. They were placed there by permanently by Bishop John (the Elder) Carpenter of Worcester, who was a native of Westbury and a great benefactor of the college, having rebuilt and refounded it. Bishop John Carpenter died in 1476 and was buried in the church, where a plain altar monument was errected to his memory. This church (in 1890) is the Holy Trinity of Bristol, and is described in Willi's Survey of Cathedrals, published in 1742. And in Atykn's and Rudder's History of Gloucester where there is a very interesting sketch of Bishop John Carpenter who was also known as "Master John Carpenter" mentioned in the will of the town clerk of London, John Carpenter, the younger. end One of the sons of William of Homme was Richard Carpenter b. 1464/1470. He was a Catholic Priest. His brother named John (John of London) may have been a Priest also. See below. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:2781 - ---------------------------------------------------- Name:Richard CARPENTER Rev. Sex:M ID No:4JG9-HH Birth: 1465/1470 Place:Homme,Hertfordshire,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Unknown Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: 1503 Place:,Wiltshire,England Burial: Place: Father:William CARPENTER WoH-91 Mother:(CARPENTER)-700 Notes: !Raymond Carpenter, the genealogist, states that this Richard Carpenter was Vicar General of Ramsbury to the Bishop of Salisbury. He was a CATHOLIC PRIEST, he died in 1503. See notes below. Coat-of-Arms below. Per Oxford University Records he came from Hereford and had brothers James, John, and William. !The Reverend Richard Carpenter followed in the footsteps of his granduncle John Carpenter the Elder, Bishop of Worcester and served in the same Church at Westbury. Richard Carpenter was Canon of Westbury upon Trin (Tryn) in Gloucestershire and Vicar of Mixbury in Oxfordshire and possibly in Trottescliffe in Kent. He was Vicar of Ramsbury in Wiltshire. He was also of Colford parish in Gloucester. !WILL: The will of Rev. Richard Carpenter mentions sons Robert & Peter. !SEE: Also: (WN & Q) Wiltshire Notes and Queries, Pages 256-258 and 293 which lists The Wilshire Wills proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury (1383-1558): "1503 Carpenter, Rychard, D.C.L. and priest, Remmesbury (= Ramsbury, Wilts) (Wilts?) Mixbury, Oxford. (Oxfordshire) 25 Blamyr." There are two other CARPENTER notes in the above record. They read: "1524 Carpenter, als. Morecock, Roger, Hornyngesham, Wilts. F. 31 Bodfelde." "1547 Carpenter, sir Thomas, priste, Cathedral of Sarum. F. 10 Allen." The 1547 year note probably refers to this Richard's grandson. The "F." notes represent the books or records the references were found in. The 1524 year note may refer to a son not listed in his will. The descendants of Roger claim a coat of arms identical from Rev. Richard Carpenter. !Because Richard Carpenter was a Catholic Priest, his coat of arms of three cross crosslets, derived from John Carpenter the Younger of London would pass down to his descendants with a vertical green bend sinister. Even though priests were required to be celibates, it was not unusal in those times for church officials of all ranks to have families named in their wills, though of course no wife was named. !His Coat-of-Arms were probably granted when he was at Coleford, Newland parish, Gloucester County. See page 356 in the book, Carpenter Family in America, by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. (or this was is son or grandson?) !Some speculation was that his wife's name was Susan Trevelian. end notes. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:2639 - ---------------------------------------------- Name:John of London CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:4JG9-F5 Birth:Abt 1462 Place:Homme,Hertfordshire,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Unknown Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:Bef 1540 Place: Burial: Place: Father:William CARPENTER WoH-91 Mother:(CARPENTER)-700 Notes ------------------------------------------------- !Listed in the London Visitation in 1634. His greatgrandson, John married Anne Davison, sister of William Davison who was Secretary of State to Queen Elizabeth the First. Was he a Priest like his brother? DILWIN CHURCH HISTORY: Valued at 20 marks_. Pursuant to this arrangement the Bishop in 1285 directed his officials to make enquiry if church was void and from what time. Who true patron who presented last vacancy and whether the present Richard de Monyton was praiseworthy and of good conversion and nature of Con and held any other benefice.--- The answers were satisfactory, but Richard de M. resigned in a few days. 1298 Peter Pons deacon. In 1303 on a dispute as to the Vicar's salary, Wm. De Kingscote, Canon, and Wm. De Caple, Official of the Hereford Commissioners --- Priory lay Brother John of Clehonger, the Vicar in person. Witnesses deposed on oath that all the fruits oblations obventions and revenues did not average more than 70 marks [46.11.8] The Convent had rebuilt the Chancel and would renew it when necessary and find sufficient books for matutinals and would sell and provide for the Bishop at his visitation. The Vicar to provide a Chapel for chadensore of the Lords day. Vicars of Dilwin Church:- 1349 Wm. Nicholas 1395.Thomas Barwe 1402 John Skele 1407.William Taylor 1409.Walter Robins vac. On pension of 40s. To have a chamber on ground floor of Vicarage [bafram caveram] with a fireplace. 1428.Richard Probert 1460.William Strongford 1466 Thomas Golosse [Walter Smethcote 1468 John Bridde [Walter Brigge 1478 William Hope Bridde vac 1479 Thomas Longe Johanna Bruge 1480 John Coxton Richd. Bromwich 1481.July. R. Iaqueson on his own part and that of R. Judde his Co-Commissioners writes to Bishop Mylling:- "Sir Richard Delabere has presented to us Thomas Leynthall for the Chantry of St. Mary now vacant on the ground of the right passed by Philip Luntley of Leomnstr. To whom Janyn Luntley granted the advowson towards the end of his life. An enquiry is to take place on Church of Dilwyn by ----- and -- --- of repute residing near the Church. CHANTRY of St. MARY Value of 4.5.9. in N.Trancept. Further information on the church comes from "The Manor Houses of Herefordshire" The Church is, says Silas Taylor, "very fayre for a country village" and has been recently restored with considerable skill and judgement. On the North side of the church beneath a canopy ornamented with ball flowers, lies a cross-legged Knight in armour. The shield, worn on the left arm, is charged with a lion rampant within a bordure engrailed. Mr. Blore refers to the monument to the reign of Edward II, and it is generally supposed to represent one of the Talbots, who were connected both with Dilwin and the neighbouring Priory of Wormsley. Silas Taylor [Harl.Mss.6868] says "I am induced to believe it was one of ye Tirells of Tirell's court in this parish from the arms." The curious coffin-lid bearing the arms of Delabere has been already noticed and is more particularly described in the preface to "Dingley's History from Marble, Vol.II, p.103. DILWIN CHURCH Estate is frequently alluded to in deeds as "The College" end notes. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA John F. Chandler wrote: > > Bruce wrote: > > The Pembryg co.is Pembridge co. in > > our parlance. > > I don't think anyone will be surprised to hear that there is no Pembridge > Co. in Great Britain. The phrase used in the text was > > Staunton beside Pembryg, co. Hereford, > > which would be Staunton (near Pembridge), Herefordshire. As it happens, > there is another Staunton only a few miles away, so it is necessary to > make the distinction. > > > Was William a priest? 1480 is well before the Reformation.What > > does 'vicar' imply? > > Yes. The term "vicar" connotes a stand-in (for the "real" ecclesiastical > authority), but the job is, in practice, almost always permanent, as it > was for William. Thus, the vicar is the pastor of his parish. > > > Notice the "feoffment" applies to both Willy > > and Johnny. This means we are dealing with Carpenter family > > assets and not church assets. > > That goes without saying. A mere vicar would not be the land holder of > record for the Church's property. > > > in the document is that the property in question > > was cloth manufacture related. > > That is a rather wild extrapolation from very limited data. > > > "Feoffment by John Dey of Nuneton and Agnes his wife, > > Notice that both John and his wife joined in the deed. Because of the > wife's rights of dower, a married man could not alienate property > without her consent. > > > William Carpenter, perpetual vicar of the parish church of Staunton beside > > Pembryg, co. Hereford, John Carpenter, brother of the said William, Thomas > > Shepey of Nuneton, and Nicholas Dalton, otherwise called > > Tayler, of Kynges, co. Warwick > > The relationship among the four feoffees is not made clear here. > Although William evidently lived in Staunton, and Nicholas Dalton/Taylor > lived in Kings, the property was in the borough of Nuneton. > > > of a burgage and a half-burgage in Nuneton > > Note that the term "burgage" does not imply any particular size of > property, but rather the form of tenure -- the property was within a > borough. > > > which they had by the gift of Richard George, Maud his wife, > > and John Freman of Coventre, > > Note, again, the inclusion of Richard's wife in the previous transfer. > As long as we are making wild speculations, it would be appropriate here > to wonder if Richard was the father of John Dey's wife Agnes. > > > who had the same by the feoffment of John Thorp > > late of Coventre, 'weaver' > > Note that the only mention of weaving is as the occupation of a three- > times removed previous holder of the property! > > > to them and the heirs and assigns of the said > > William and John Carpenter. > > I wonder why the other two feoffees' heirs and assigns are not mentioned > here... > > John Chandler