Dear Bruce, Documents are often hard to find or interpret. It is easy to say that A document seems related to B document. When in doubt I suggest hedging the words as "believed to be" "or may be" or a similar such phrase. I find John Chandler's advise very helpful. Bruce Carpenter wrote: > William of Homme, like other names in early Carpenter family > history, are essentially phantoms i.e. just names with no > apparent reality to attach to them. My enthusiam for > the Pembryg document was that it was actual historical evidence that > recorded Carpenters, in at least the neighborhood > of Dilwyn, in early 1500s. I have never found one bit > of concrete evidence that actually places any Carpenter > near Dilwyn in any of the hundreds of texts that > I have looked through. The Pembryg document tells > us that a William Carpenter (with a brother John) "did his clerical thing" > in a church a horse trot from Dilwyn. This I thought, and still think, > is reason enough to break out the sherry. Any data that helps with the puzzle is very welcome to Carpenter researchers. While I abstain from spirits {:) finding a vital clue can be a reason to celebrate. While William of Homme may be a "essentially phantoms" to you, I believe he was a real person. The following information may help other researchers regarding the "Founder" of many important Carpenter lines. William of Homme (b. abt 1440 d. abt 1520) resided in a part of Dilwyne in Herefordshire per earlier nineteen century researchers. Part of my notes on William indicate: On page 33 of the Carpenter Memorial is: "The statements of (William) Playfair Burke (of Royal Pedigrees, etc) and Davis and Owen (Peerages) in regard to the decent of the Tyconnel carpenters from John 1303, and also William of Homme, establishes the fact that the Homme Carpenters are all descended from John of 1303. William Carpenter, (No. 8) the great grandson of William of Homme, was the direct ancestor of the Tyconnel Carpenters: and his third son William was the progenitor of the Rehoboth branch of the family." While Amos Carpenter dropped one (1) generation in his pedigree further research by Raymond George Carpenter and Harry Rodgers (who found the important wills) have confirmed the lineage. Oxford University records indicate that William of Hereford had sons James, John, William and Richard. Holm is a saxon word signifying "a woody situation." !The property at Homme or Holm stayed in the family until 1787, when it passed to the Deverux and Peploe Family. Per Robinson's "Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire." In 1873 it was the residence of Lady Frances Vernon Harcourt, who was the daughter of John Lothrop Motley, the distinguished American Historian. Homme or Holm or Holme is in the Parish of Dilwyn, Herefordshire. The Carpenters have possesed conciderable estate since they were officailly "seated" there as early as 1330. The Carpenter home was sold in 1787 to thePeploe family to help settle tax issues. Reportedly the actual home was destroyed by fire a century ago. The massive forests in Homme were leveled and all that remains now are small park like areas. I found the following data on the internet which gives a brief history of the Dilwyn Parish. ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY OF DILWYN PARISH In 1207 Matthew de Gamoges was Lord of Dilwin, and joined forces with those of William de Braos, Lord of Brecknock in his resistance to King John. The confederates, however, were defeated, and the estates of the Lord of Dilwin seized by the King, and henceforth Dilwin became a Royal Manor. In 1169, a Godfrey de Gamoges held lands under Hugh de Lacy in these parts, and he may have been the immediate predecessor to Matthew in the Lordship of Dilwin. It seems that King John, when Earl of Moreton, held lands in Dilwin. These and the lands acquired by the forfeiture of those of Matthew de Gamoges were granted by the King to William Fitzwarrynne, and King Henry III confirmed the grant. The Honour was held next in succession by Almaric de St. Armand, Godfrey and Walter de Burgh, Robert Wathamstide, Peter de Genevrey [or Geneville]. The Honour of Dilwin contained two hides and a half, and is described in the original deed as a "Royal Honour". We now arrive at the most illustrious of the Lords of Dilwin, in the person of Prince Edmund, Earl of Leicester, on whom Henry III bestowed the Honour of Dilwin. Upon the death of this illustrious and unfortunate Prince in 1296, of a broken heart, his son Thomas, Earl of Lancaster, succeeded him, followed in turn by his brother who took Edward II prisoner in the following reign [Edward III] Nicholas de Audley held Dilwin, but probably under a superior Lord, he Lancaster family - for when we read that when the military fees of Henry Earl of Lancaster were divided between his two daughters, Maud or Matilda had Dilwin as part of her portion. At her death it might have reverted to the Crown, as her first husband, Lord Stafford, left no children, and there is no account of heirs by her second husband, William, Duke of Zealand. During the War of the Roses we have no record of the Lordship of Dilwin. In the time of Richard III, Sir John Talbot and Dame Margaret his wife, obtained a grant of one third of the manor. In the reign on Henry VIII, the Lordship of Dilwin was taxed for one Knights fee of 2. The last mention made of the Manor is in the time of Queen Elizabeth I, when it was held of the Crown by Knights Service of the Honor of Dilwin, but by whom it does not appear. I am not aware that any mention is to be found of a castle at Dilwin, but there was of course a manor house. The site is still distinctly marked, and its dimensions are traced by a wide and deep moat, which during a greater part of its extent is still filled with water. The orchard adjoining it is called "Court Orchard". Not a vestige of the Court itself is left. Without attaining the dignity and strength of a regularly fortified place, it doubtless was capable of defence against any petty raid or ordinary surprise. It is situated less than a mile from the Church, and lies Southwest of it. The odds of a Mott and Bailey fortification (or wooden castle common after the Norman invasion of 1066 through about the 1400s) is quite probable since the manor house is located on a hill on top of older foundations. The surrounding ground indicates the probability even though no research has been done on this site. Tony Carpenter in England has found records in England dating back to 1215 AD of Carpenters in the Pembridge / Dilwyne area. 1215 JOHN CARPENTER son of a Norman Knight. Pembridge.Will. Hereford 1215 JOAN CARPENTER wife of JOHN Pembridge.Will.Hereford (sister?) JOHN CARPENTER is buried in the Nave of DILWIN Church, Herefordshire. JOAN CARPENTER is buried in the Lady Chapel at Eardisland Church Herefordshire. They owned property and land in this area, probably from the King, as Norman Knights were being brought over from Normandy as Mercenaries to fight against the Barons. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > William of Homme, like other names in early Carpenter family > history, are essentially phantoms i.e. just names with no > apparent reality to attach to them. My enthusiam for > the Pembryg document was that it was actual historical evidence that > recorded Carpenters, in at least the neighborhood > of Dilwyn, in early 1500s. I have never found one bit > of concrete evidence that actually places any Carpenter > near Dilwyn in any of the hundreds of texts that > I have looked through. The Pembryg document tells > us that a William Carpenter (with a brother John) "did his clerical thing" > in a church a horse trot from Dilwyn. This I thought, and still think, > is reason enough to break out the sherry. > > Bruce