I do not like the bikering and fighting and name calling either. I was sucked in for a minute and wrote some angry responses and made some people mad. For that I am sorry. In any event I would not like to see the list split. Why? Because I can only go back to my ggggrandfather. There I am stuck. If the list were split I would have to subscribe to both because my ggggrandfather could be related to one of the two Carpenter branches most discussed on this list or someone else. I have posted what I know about my Carpenter family a couple times in the past and John has been the only one to take the time to write me back with possibilities. For that I am grateful. I found no connection in what he sent me but he took the time to e-mail me a great deal of information which I have kept just in case. That's what I think this list should be about . I appreciate it whenever anyone on this list posts what they know about their line for as far back as they have been able to go because I look with interest and I compare mine with theirs. I copy these postings in hopes that one day I may find a connection. I am not a sophisticated genealogist. I am just a person who loves my family and is sincerely interested in my roots. I can and do use my delete key. I don't know if any of my ancesters that predate my ggggrandfather and mother were town clerks in England, butchers in the Crusades, or what they were. Whatever they were they are not now nor am I. In the end I am not going to have to answer for anyone's behavior but my own. Here is what I know about my family. grandfather: Hugh J. Carpenter (carpenter & WWI & II vet), married to Iona Esther Perry ggrandfather: Frank W. Carpenter (carpenter), married to S. Anna Shappell. Children: Hugh J. only. gggrandfather: Cecil C. Carpenter (farmer & carpenter) married to Carolyn Vannorthwick (children below) ggggrandfather: Daniel R. Carpenter (farmer), born around 1811-1813 in New York. Married to Sally A. Wilson, born November, 1917, New York. Died March 6, 1863, Michigan. (Children below) Daniel is where I am stuck. Daniel and Sally had the following children: Otis W. Carpenter (teacher & farmer & Civil War Vet), born around 1840, Oakland Co., Michigan. Died December 6, 1864. Never married. Died of disease in the Civil War. William H. Carpenter (minister & farmer), born around 1842 in Eaton Co., Michigan. Married to Maryette Vannorthwick on March 19, 1867. Children, Carrie or Cassie? Daniel R. Carpenter, born around 1843, died Jan. 21, 1851. Age 8. Cecil C. Carpenter, born 1845, died 1936. Married Carolyn Vannorthwick Feb. 5, 1869. Children were: Frank W. Carpenter, Guy E. Carpenter and Claire C. Carpenter. Diana R. Carpenter, Born Oct. 6, 1848, Died December 2, 1868. Never married. Daniel R. and Sally A. came to Michigan from New York sometime between 1830 and 1840. First to Oakland County where Otis was born and then to Eaton County where they settled on a farm in Delta Township and gave birth to and raised the rest of their children. All of these Carpenters are buried in Delta Center Cemetery, Delta Township, Eaton County, Michigan. I have obtained the above and other information from cemetery records, birth and death records, census records, marriage records, land records and military records. I located a Daniel R. Carpenter on the 1830 New York census in Chautauqua County. He is gone from the New York cenus of 1840 and appears next on the 1840 cenus for Eaton County, Michigan. Otis was born around 1840 in Oakland Co., Michigan so I know from this that Daniel R. and Sally A. came from New York to Oakland Co., MI first and then to Eaton County, Michigan. If anyone on this list has a connection to any of the above Carpenters, wives, or children, I would appreciate hearing from you. I don't know who Daniel's parents or siblings, if any, were or where they came from. Maybe you have a Carpenter relative who hails from or is connected in some way to Chautauqua Co., N.Y., (if indeed that's my Daniel R. on the 1830 Census for Chautauqua Co., New York as I could be wrong on this). In any event if and when I ever get back across the ocean I will let you know if there are any "butchers", bakers or candlestick makers in my family line. Hoping to hear from you or see your family on-line. Kris