Like so many others, I am appalled with he attacks, rude comments, and just plain bad manners in some exchanges here. Many subscribers have quit, and many more shall quit if it keeps up. Here is a suggestion; should be create two separate Carpenter lists--one for American ancestry only, the other for arguments about English, French, Flemish and earlier debates. It seems most of the bad stuff is over highly dubious feel-good heritage from the time of the crusades...which is interesting history (and even interesting debate, back when it was civil), but for most of us, not really what we're here for. If we could have a list dedicated just to American Carpenters, there would still be differences, but the level of documentation and knowability would be much higher. I would hope. How 'bout it, listmaster? Robin