Dear Tony, The Carpenters of the Domesday book has been asked before by Bruce E. Carpenter. Here is a forward of that message. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: jrcrin001 To: carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp, Ohio Carpenters - Caleb (John Caleb) Cc: Regular EMail Mowrey97, JLC HOME, Terry Lee Carpenter, demott@voyager.net Subject: Re: Carpenters Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:36:25 -0700 Message-ID: <19980811.153742.3582.0.jrcrin001@juno.com> References: <199808102343.IAA13426@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> Dear Bruce, Commoners did not hold land in England in this time period. Thus a lowly kings carpenter would never hold land unless he was elevated quite abit in station. A "servant" had different meaning then also. A servant held allegiance or fealty to his King. A commoner would be a serf (1200s) not worth mentioning in the Domesday Book. Knights, lords etc were servants of the King. The "chain of command" so to speak would preclude a kings carpenter from holding station sush as a Lord of a land. The pecking order was often worth dying over. A King would never put a lowly kings carpenter as a Lord of a Land unless he wanted to be overthrown. An usher in this time period was one of some importance. They escorted people into the King's presence. Thus an usher was like the last defensive man of the King, allowing the individual past the bodyguards. Thus William the usher was used as a title of respect & note. In 1086 William the carpenter De Melun (just elevated to Lord of Melun in 1084) went to Spain to fight the Moors. In the 1087 Domesday Book, his lands in England were parceled out to his descendants. Rayner, was a Lord in the land of Rayner. A Durand was mentioned at least twice with other references to titles, but it is not clear if they were the same person. Names were not as static as today. A person was none as the son of or by a nickname. Later upon entitlement they became known as lords, Knights, Signeurs, Barons etc of a town, land etc. Thus a person like a guy named Bouchard (actual person) eventually had over 27 titles or different names. If you lived past your young fighting days, you would usually live (if you were a noble) past 60. Thus, the young sought new titles for themselves. Durand the carpenter could have become Durand the Sheriff for example. I hope this clairfies things abit. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter Working on a Carpenter 2000 CD. 5850 Yorkshire Ave. Carpenter GEDCOMS Wanted! La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 I will share my data for your data. U.S.A. (619) 466-5910 Fax / voice message - E-mail address: jrcrin001@juno.com On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:43:30 -0400 "carpenter" <carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> writes: >John: > >I was reading through Domesday Book and found an additional reference >to Durand Carpenter that you seemed to miss, or at least >didn't include in your report to me. This particular reference >seemed to me to be of importance to Carpenter history. >It appears on p. 95 of the Then and Now edition for Moulham and >reads, "Durand Carpenter, the king's servant". > >The fact that a Carpenter was a personal servant of >William the Bastard was a complete surprise to me. One of the >other references to Durand, and one you had pointed out to >me, reads "Durand the Carpenter" on p. 93 for Affington. >There is another reference for Durand on p. 96 for Wilkswood. >He is referred to as "Durand Carpenter" there. > >Other references using the expression "the king's servant" >can be found for William the Usher under Bolham on >p. 77. The terms "the usher" and the "the carpenter" are clear >in their discriptions of household duties. Clearly Durand was >a working axe and chisel carpenter. > >Another important reference is on p. 48 for >Waterbeach which reads, "2 of the king's carpenters". These >references and many more like them are indications that household >servants were receiving lands from King William. > >The other two Carpenters in Domesday, Stephen and Rayner, are >unaccounted >for >in respect to class and profession. I suspect however that they were >carpenters by trade themselves or at least related to Durand. >I don't want to in any way condescend to Durand. He did very well for >himself >with his three land holdings in Dorcet. He must have produced a >lineage >of later descendants like the other "Butlers" , "Bakers", "Goldsmiths" >and >"Chamberlains" who had humble beginnings in the King's household. > >We cannot make any connection of these Carpenters and carpenters to >other individuals in England or on the continent. However these first >references >to the surname Carpenter give complete support to the tradtional >"artisan" origin of the Carpenter family name. > > > >Sincerely >Bruce E. Carpenter >