Dear Bruce and John, I have really been enjoying this list, as not only have I been able to make some connections, but due to the information posted by both of you on the pre-US Carpenters/Carpentiers, etc. But GENTLEMEN, I believe that you both have the right to your opinions of what is fact, theory or an educated guess and from what I can see, you should agree to disagree until John either proves he has all the facts or Bruce gets to do his 6 months in England and proves all the correct facts are his. In the meantime Bruce, I feel that you are acting beneath your stature as a professor in trying to put someone, who may not have the opportunities of doing research where you can, down because it makes you feel superior. Remember that Pride cometh before a Fall. I don't have the facilities time or ambition to do what either of you are doing on just one line as I have at least 15 lines I'm working on between my own, my husbands and my late stepdad's, so I salute you both for your efforts. But please don't let your discussions become more heated and derogatory. Instead just keep on doing what your doing and God Bless you both. Just a person who continues to learn something every day, because the first day I don't learn something, I'm probably dead. Cheri Nolen hungypsy@erie.net